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Posted: 12/30/2002 4:37:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 4:38:36 PM EST by bvmjethead]
Loved that movie! I watched it twice yesterday, about 2 hours apart. Let's pick it apart. The thing I noticed that was a bit "Hollywood" was when the Delta guy shot at the SUV on the road with his M-16, from the mini bird and you see the oil coming out from under the hood. Come on a .223 fired from 100 yds piercing the engine block? There was a couple of times when the 2 guy's who got separated, both had big guns, I noticed that they were firing blanks. Just a slip cuz a couple times I noticed they had real bullets in the belt. Must be a bitch to have to remember to change the ammo every time there is a closeup on the weapon. What did you guy's see?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:02:15 PM EST
Guess it was just that good.....
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:23:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 5:25:21 PM EST by Hawkeye]
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:35:33 PM EST
I'd hit it !
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:48:28 PM EST
In the helicopter Shugart and Gordon are using handguns and the flash seems to come AND GO before the slide accuates. Grimes/M203 firing at the 50cal gun truck, the guy recoils before the round leaves the tube. When Capt Steele is firing up to the roof or whatever he flinches as the shots go, real big blinks. I have seen the videos of the sniper doc on the History channel, and I have seen some of the stuff on BUDS training and some SEAL training stuff done for their PR program out recently, and those guys weren't even blinking as they cleared a room with 3 or 4 guys firing and no "ears" on. The snipers firing the Parker and Hale 338 LAPUA not only don't flinch but their heads are still even through recoil. [whacko] There is some other stuff, but the movie is awesome. I like in the Matrix when he is firing the Desert Eagle in the end, if you slow it to less than a frame by frame, like 1:60th you can see that the gun is chambering blanks, then see the spent cartridges as they flick out. Ed
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:09:58 PM EST
No where near the detail of Sniper 2. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:59:19 PM EST
Rumor has it that no sammies were killed in the making of the movie. Thats not realistic now is it?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:18:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0: Rumor has it that no sammies were killed in the making of the movie. Thats not realistic now is it?
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I understand that Steven Spielberg bought the rights to release a Special Edition DVD next spring. The Skinnies will be digitally replaced by the KKK..... Scott
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:23:38 PM EST
The bullet wouldnt have to penetrate the engine block to get out shooting out of the engine compartment. There is always the valve cover (aluminum), oil filter, oil cooler (used in hot environments), etc. That could easily happen with a shot from a .223.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:26:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By SHIVAN: In the helicopter Shugart and Gordon are using handguns and the flash seems to come AND GO before the slide accuates.
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A function of using blanks, I suppose. Makes it a little less realistic, but slinging lead around on a movie set can be hazardous. Only us gun nuts ever notice, anyways.
Originally Posted By SHIVAN: I like in the Matrix when he is firing the Desert Eagle in the end, if you slow it to less than a frame by frame, like 1:60th you can see that the gun is chambering blanks, then see the spent cartridges as they flick out.
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The thing that always bugged me was the shootout between Neo and the Agent. Neo had a Beretta 92FS, and the agent had a desert eagle. They both start shooting at the same time and run dry at the same time. But the 92FS holds 16 rounds, and I think the desert eagle only holds 7 or 8. So Neo must have been shooting twice as fast as the agent, even though he's supposed to be slower. Even if Neo had the 96FS, thats 12 rounds to 8.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:14:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:27:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By sherrick13: 10 rounds, don't forget the mag ban [:D]
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Doesn't/didn't Beretta make a single stack '92'?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:56:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By mayday: I'd hit it !
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Me too!!! Really though, the only 'unrealistic' thing I noted (and I've read the book) was the one part where you see the machine guns with blanks in them. That's it. Well, I suppose you could call not so great gun handling skills...OH AND I ALMOST FORGOT (I don't think before typing) at one point there was a HMMWV (sp?) pulling out of the base (insignificant) and the barrel on the Ma Deuce wobbles because its one of those rubber guns. Overall, pretty good. Elad Eflow mentioned that they do a lot of unrealistic snap shooting.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:10:31 PM EST
Awesome movie! Like Hawkeye, I try to watch at least once every week or two. I noticed to many shots not hitting skinnies running across a street, etc. at what appears to be less than a 50 yd shot, WTF! Why only two Little Bird runs on roof top during last night? Delta guy tossed a grenade through the window (2nd or 3rd floor) of building from what appeared to be half a football field distance. [:O] No F'ing way! Maddux or Favre maybe [:D] 50% of the time. Damn good movie!
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:36:17 PM EST
The scene with the two Little Bird gunships taking out the truck with the .50. They show an overhead hovering shot of a Huey with white stripes on the blades, then it cuts to the Hughes gunships. The one in front unloads its miniguns and looks like it breaks right, directly into the path of the gunship behind it as it starts to fire its miniguns. One other scene that bothered me. When the Delta guys and the Rangers were trapped behind the dirt birm by a guy in a building several stories tall shooting at them. William Fichtner's character Delta Sgt Sanderson runs up the birm and chucks a grenade into the window from quite a distance. Why one of the Rangers with an M203 wouldnt have taken care of that I dont know.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:28:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Originally Posted By sherrick13: 10 rounds, don't forget the mag ban [:D]
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Doesn't/didn't Beretta make a single stack '92'?
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I think your thinking of the Beretta/Maadi 951 used between 1951-present by both the Egyptians, Italians and Israelis. Fore-runner to the 92 series, quite a bit thinner/smaller too. My first pistol. Great gun, even the Egyptian made guns are good shooters.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:02:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: No where near the detail of Sniper 2. [:D]
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So how unrealistics was this movie (Sniper2). I guess it was supposed to be relased or shown on a cable station around this time. Has anyone seen it yet
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:35:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: One other scene that bothered me. When the Delta guys and the Rangers were trapped behind the dirt birm by a guy in a building several stories tall shooting at them. William Fichtner's character Delta Sgt Sanderson runs up the birm and chucks a grenade into the window from quite a distance. Why one of the Rangers with an M203 wouldnt have taken care of that I dont know.
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IIRC, that did happen in real life, but I can't remember who it was. I belive it was in M. Bowdens book.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:40:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: The thing I noticed that was a bit "Hollywood" was when the Delta guy shot at the SUV on the road with his M-16, from the mini bird and you see the oil coming out from under the hood. Come on a .223 fired from 100 yds piercing the engine block?
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That DID happen in real life. Col. Tom Matthews or Col. Lee Van Arsdale (not 100% sure of the spelling of his surname) said so in the commentary. Though in real life the subjects in the car jumped out and ran into a building. Delta then had to go in after them.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:41:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Originally Posted By sherrick13: 10 rounds, don't forget the mag ban [:D]
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Doesn't/didn't Beretta make a single stack '92'?
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M1951. Also licensed in Egypt as the Helwyn or something..... Scott
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:44:53 AM EST
there's a few scenes where they were using "rubber duckies" rather than actual M-16's you have to look close, but you can catch them in a couple of closeups.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:10:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By crumabn: there's a few scenes where they were using "rubber duckies" rather than actual M-16's you have to look close, but you can catch them in a couple of closeups.
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Like the close up of Hoot's safety on his CAR in the hanger scene.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:18:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:34:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 6:44:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By RebelGray:
Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Originally Posted By sherrick13: 10 rounds, don't forget the mag ban [:D]
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Doesn't/didn't Beretta make a single stack '92'?
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I think your thinking of the Beretta/Maadi 951 used between 1951-present by both the Egyptians, Italians and Israelis. Fore-runner to the 92 series, quite a bit thinner/smaller too. My first pistol. Great gun, even the Egyptian made guns are good shooters.
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Nah, I've seen the 951/Helwan's before, almost bought one before deciding on a Cz52(7.62Tok rocks!). I'm thinking of a standard double action 92 but with a single stack mag. I seem to recall reading some gun-rag article about "Beretta's New & Latest..." yadda yadda. Perhaps they changed their mind after they realized the M92 is still a big assed pistol, thin grip or not.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 7:18:32 AM EST
You are right, Riff. Beretta has been making the "M" series of 92 since at least the mid 80's. It has a "C" length slide and a single stack 8rnd mag. I've been tossing around geting one of those to replace the full size 92 I use as my daily carry gun. Here is a pic of he 92M. [img=left]http://www.beretta.com/images/immagini_maxi/p_92_96COMP-92COMP-LTM_maxi.jpg[/img=left]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 7:18:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By TimJ: Why in the hell didn't the SAWs have the correct drum type belt carriers in them? I mean, they could have gotten a pallet of them for $8.00 at a gun show, and they wind up using Negev drums?????
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Haven't you heard? Only terrorists buy things at gun shows. [:O]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 7:52:29 AM EST
Regarding the capture of Otto, the way they showed it in the movie was the way they had practiced it. This is how it really went down, as written by Ray Dowdy, who was a crew chief on Super 61. "Please remember I am/was a Crewchief not a writer. So bear with me. OPSEC I am sure is not a problem Mark Bowden was shown video from this mission. I will still keep some out. It started like most of the other missions we did. The forces were alerted and moved to the Aircraft and we all got spooled up. We had our planeside brief it turned out the recon ACFT was following Otto and he did not know it yet. Everyone was loaded up on the Aircraft and ready to go when the recon ACFT told the AMC (Air Mission Commander) they were sure Otto was going to the Digford (spelling) hospital. DigFord hospital was a strong point. (fortified) After that radio traffic the AMC called off the mission. About 10 seconds later he called MR Wolcott and told him if we can get to him before Otto could reach the hospital do the mission. “Irene” Super 61 was the mission flight lead, the flight took off with a little more urgency. We flew direct to the gate to the hospital. The Ranger flight broke off and went into holding over the water. The reduced flight consisted of 2 AH, Super 61 & Super 62 and the MH-6 birds. The recon ACFT was giving us info on the car Otto was in, color location, and heading. We made it to the gate of the hospital about the same time as Otto. At first no one had contact with the car, it was hard to pick it out. IF you could imagine the confusion, ACFT going all over. Everyone is looking for the car and not really looking were the other ACFT are. Right about the time we spot the car I look up for the other ACFT, I about swallowed my tong, a little bird just about flew under our rotor disk, all I could get out was “LITTLE BIRD LEFT SIDE” Something went our way. Otto’s car pulled right up to the gate and turned around. He just needed to 20 more feet and he would have been free. The car went a short distance and stopped. We Super 61 & 62 were on him quick. The last out of the car was a bodyguard. Jim Smith slowed him down with a round in the leg but he still made it in the building. IF I remember right 62 fast roped to the top of the building. Just as the MH-6 flight was landing Dan Bush put a few rounds into the car then his Saw jammed. Seeing this I was sure Dan saw something I did not, So I put about 100 rounds from my mini into the car. I stopped because the little birds were close to the car and the remaining team leader was screaming to cease-fire. I was never afraid to do any of the missions, I was afraid of me doing something wrong. For a few minutes I thought that very thing happened. We needed to put our guys in quick; Charlie quickly gave movement directions so we could rope our guys in. After that was done we went into our fire support pattern, and what we could do for crowed control. It was funny as hell watching Dan and Charlie throwing flash bangs and stingers to keep the onlookers away. Every once in a while we would hover by the crowds a dust them good to get them going away, and to help motivate them a stinger or two. Like on the 3rd RPG’s were flying a lot. This day was a target rich environment. Was the first time I found myself shooting at anybody. The first one turned out to be funny afterwards. The way how it unfolded was I spotted a skinny shooting at 62 with an AK. He looked around and saw us coming, for a few seconds he tried to hide in a small out building, it looked like a bus stop here but with out any glass. Then out he came, running like hell, I started shooting, my rounds were slightly behind him as he ran. In a short distance I caught up with him. When my Mini stopped I could hear MR. Wolcott saying over the radio “that target is no longer a factor” Little did I know MR. Wolcott was talking to the AMC on the Sat com. So when I was firing the entire flight could hear me shooting. In a short time all needed to be picked up. 62 was the first hawk to do a pick up. What we did was a one wheel landing on the rooftop to extract. When 62 were extracting, our pattern get much smaller to provide closer support. When they finished we went in and got our guys. The entire mission was completed without any Ranger support. But it did go very quick. After all the picture taking was over, Tommy Field told me when MR. Wolcott made the radio call to the AMC, and everyone could hear my Mini, a cheer erupted from his ACFT. Was a great feeling to have got one of the bigger fish, after all the bad mouthing we were getting from the news media while we were in country."
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 7:54:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cardinal: That DID happen in real life. Col. Tom Matthews or Col. Lee Van Arsdale (not 100% sure of the spelling of his surname) said so in the commentary. Though in real life the subjects in the car jumped out and ran into a building. Delta then had to go in after them.
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We Region 1 folk hate you. Our Special Edition DVD of [B]Black Hawk Down[/B]with the commentary won't be released until sometime in 2003. Who else was on the commentary?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 8:37:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Moose: We Region 1 folk hate you. Our Special Edition DVD of [B]Black Hawk Down[/B]with the commentary won't be released until sometime in 2003. Who else was on the commentary?
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Audio commentary from director Ridley Scott & producer Jerry Bruckheimer Audio commentary from author Mark Bowden & screenwriter Ken Nolan Interviews with Task Force veterans, Col Matthews, Col van Arsdale, Col. Danny McKnight and MSGT Matt Eversmann Other "nice" features [:D] 'Bootcamp' featurette 'On Location' featurette 'Black Hawk Helicopter' featurette 'Tribute To The Fallen' featurette Deleted and alternative scenes Multi-angle sequences Image and video galleries Interview with author Mark Bowden 'Production Design' featurette Storyboard to feature film comparisons Ridleygrams Camera and lens tests Unit photography montages Continuity and costume polaroids Jerry Bruckheimer photo gallery (with optional Bruckheimer commentary) production interview archive Post-production interview archive Animatics and visual effects test The Scott/Bruckheimer commentary was a good to very good "directors" commentary. The veterans commentary was extremely interesting. I only wish it could have lasted twice as long. It was also at times very moving. For example they got very quiet during the Shughart/Gordon scene, because as they said, it was a very emotional scene for them. It's one of the best SE dvd's I've ever seen.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 8:56:03 AM EST
"Blackhawk Down unrealistic???" Of course. It's a movie. I don't understand why some people cirtique a movie or a show as if it's the real thing. Of course it's unrealistic, nobody really dies.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:12:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:24:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By John91498: "Blackhawk Down unrealistic???" Of course. It's a movie. I don't understand why some people cirtique a movie or a show as if it's the real thing. Of course it's unrealistic, nobody really dies.
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I must have a different version. The one I have shows lots of people getting shot, mangled, and killed. I tear up at lest twice everytime I watch it.
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The version you have shows ACTORS getting shot with blanks, mangled with fake blood, and falling down pretending to be killed. No movie can convey the horrors of war. You're sitting in your nice comfortable chair watching a re-enactment.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:34:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By John91498: The version you have shows ACTORS getting shot with blanks, mangled with fake blood, and falling down pretending to be killed. No movie can convey the horrors of war. You're sitting in your nice comfortable chair watching a re-enactment.
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Yeah, I think we're all pretty familiar with the difference between a movie and reality, but thanks for pointing it out. The point is that some movies are more realistic portrayals of combat than others - Black Hawk Down v. Sniper 2, We Were Soldiers v. First Blood, Part IV. Do you now understand the point of this thread?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:43:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By eswanson: Yeah, I think we're all pretty familiar with the difference between a movie and reality, but thanks for pointing it out.
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You're so welcome. I'm pretty sure there are still others who can't see the difference.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:38:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:52:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By John91498:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Originally Posted By John91498: "Blackhawk Down unrealistic???" Of course. It's a movie. I don't understand why some people cirtique a movie or a show as if it's the real thing. Of course it's unrealistic, nobody really dies.
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I must have a different version. The one I have shows lots of people getting shot, mangled, and killed. I tear up at lest twice everytime I watch it.
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The version you have shows ACTORS getting shot with blanks, mangled with fake blood, and falling down pretending to be killed. No movie can convey the horrors of war. You're sitting in your nice comfortable chair watching a re-enactment.
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I see actors recreating an event that really happened, doing everything but using live ammo. Would you suggest that they actually killed each other to make it more realistic? I guess all the numerous times I read the book were pretty pointless too as its just a book, not like its actually happening for real as I read it.
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Yeah, sure. Again, I think it's silly for people to critique realism in a movie. It's a movie. It's suppose to entertain. If it was too realistic, it probably wouldn't be entertaining.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:02:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:17:25 PM EST
I've said it before I'll say it again, unless you've got a better thread stop criticizing mine. AND, if you don't like the topic of mine quit clicking on it. I know the difference between reality and Hollywood movies, the point of this thread is to converse with other people who like/love the movie like I do. Laugh about the little inconsistencies etc. Lighten up pal.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:51:03 PM EST
I took my buddy (retired Force Recon Marine who has been everywhere the corps has from VietNam to Iraq and some in between and I would have thought he was full of shit had I not seen the pictures to prove it) and I was pretty moved. I had read the book several times and was jazzed. My buddy said it was the best depiction of what actual combat is like he has ever seen portrayed by Hollywood. The only thing I caught was a continuity issue: Durant is placed in the building while Shugart and Gordon are fightin off the skinnies. He has the M16 sitting in his lap, then he is given the M16. Ooops, out of sequence.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:59:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: I've said it before I'll say it again, unless you've got a better thread stop criticizing mine. AND, if you don't like the topic of mine quit clicking on it. I know the difference between reality and Hollywood movies, the point of this thread is to converse with other people who like/love the movie like I do. Laugh about the little inconsistencies etc. Lighten up pal.
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I see your point. We get all riled up watching the shooting and the fighting and things blowing up. The movie is actually one of my favorites. I'll put in one of my critiques: Remember when Eversman's squad was heading towards the first downed Blackhawk and they encountered a tactical? The tactical was taken out by a little bird? The frontal scene of the little bird firing was an actual little bird, but the shot from above was a different chopper. It looked like a Huey.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:00:27 PM EST
Delta guy tossed a grenade through the window (2nd or 3rd floor) of building from what appeared to be half a football field distance. [:O] No F'ing way! Maddux or Favre maybe [:D] 50% of the time. Damn good movie!
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read the book, it happened as per eye witness accounts
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:01:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By gunmonkey: The only thing I caught was a continuity issue: Durant is placed in the building while Shugart and Gordon are fightin off the skinnies. He has the M16 sitting in his lap, then he is given the M16. Ooops, out of sequence.
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Watch it again. Durant has his MP5 in his lap, then he was given the M-16 after Gordon was killed.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:23:53 PM EST
See John91498, you're good at this. It's fun....try again.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:29:49 PM EST
firing from above and to the side it is possible to hit the side and pierce the bottom of the oil pan, oil filter or oil cooler if it had one, radiator hoses, heater core or radiator and spill all sorts of crap without puncturing the engine block. Even tranny fluid if the tranny cooler is in front of the radiator or in it. Maybe punched valve covers as well.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:30:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: See John91498, you're good at this. It's fun....try again.
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Smartazz...[:D]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:46:49 PM EST
Good......now try and learn to play nice with the other children. WITHOUT calling names! [:D][;)]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:51:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By bvmjethead: Good......now try and learn to play nice with the other children. WITHOUT calling names! [:D][;)]
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I try to, but everytime I take out my AR, the other kids call me names!!! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 4:04:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 4:12:51 PM EST
After hanging with you guys on this board I can't watch movies like I used too. I watched enemy @ the gates and caught the different variations of moisn nagants and k98's I'll go watch black hawk down in a bit.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 4:16:18 PM EST
The Oakley model sunglasses that the guy was wearing were not even made until the late 1990's. (May 1998?)
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