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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:01:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Yep, 'ol Billy was using a Sharps in .50-90, I believe. 1536 is the range I heard, but that's almost what you posted.
I read an article about how some guys got access to a military range with radar equipment to verify that such a rifle could make such a shot. IIRC, the maxiumum range they got out of it was around 3600 yards. They tried some other rifles, and from what I remember of the article, it's nice to know my .45-70, lobbing a 530gr cast lead bullet at just under 1200fps muzzle, still has over 900fps velocity at 1000 yards. Sucks that the drop is 1664 inches, tho! So yeah, those old buffalo cannons could lob some lead pretty dang far! |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:07:00 AM EDT
[#2]
I don't mean to hijack this thread but what would it feel like to shoot .45-70 out of a revolver. I was thinking about getting one. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:07:40 AM EDT
[#3]
Actually it was a borrowed rifle, not Billy Dixon's personal rifle. An unbelievable shot using a borrowed rifle, except he had witnesses. I think the article about using radar was written by Mike Venturino and appeared in Shotgun News. I have at home somewhere, I'll have to go look for it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:10:07 AM EDT
[#4]
Pain is what it would feel like! If you think you need a pistol in 45-70, you probably need to check out the ads in the Back of Club and Oui more than you need the pistol 
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:11:33 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:12:51 AM EDT
[#6]
45-70 in a revolver?? aniwayz, i want one of these.. quigly 
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:15:20 AM EDT
[#7]
I'll bet that indian had a funny look on his face.
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:16:05 AM EDT
[#8]
 That's my boomstick. Pedersoli Sharps Heavy Target. 34" 1/3 octagon heavy barrel. Weighs dang near 13lb. Lobbing a 530gr lead bullet over 67gr FFg, it kicks like a pussycat. I shoot it wearing a teeshirt and nothing but the steel buttplate. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:17:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Wimps!  MR has a video of a couple of ladies shooting it.  www.magnumfilms.com/movies/BFR02_trans_sv3_1.mov |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:18:11 AM EDT
[#10]
What, that can't be true. Everyone knows that the 50 beowulf with nearly identical trajectory to the 45-70 is only good for 200 yards.
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:25:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Ive got an older 1874 Sporting Rifle, Marked Old Reliable on the barrel, forget what company over in Italy made it.
Just got a percussion Sharps Carbine off the EE this morning! Dad on the other hand has more money than sense and has an original Ballard in 45-70 and a Highwall in 38-55 that he shoots amazingly well for a guy too stubborn to get the cataracks removed from his eyes. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:29:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Didnt that article have some specs about the flight of the round?
IE at its apex it would have been 100 yards in the air and floated for 11 or 15 seconds before reaching the target? These are just figures I *think* might be correct, but I would like to see the article again because they are probably wrong. I would really like to see that data again. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:37:54 AM EDT
[#13]
Yeah, but that's probably shooting 350gr light loads. Try lobbing 530gr of lead out of a pistol. I can only guess it would induce quite a few 'OUCH'es. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 10:38:24 AM EDT
[#14]
Those ladies shooting the Magnum Research BFR in .45-70 probably had light loads. I have fired a TC Contender in 45-70 with 405 lead. My wrist still hurts and I shot that gun about 10 years ago!
On a side note I was spotting a friend shooting his Sharps at 250 yards. If you pay attention you can see the bullet enter your field of view and hit the paper target. Bullets were coming in at artillery angles! |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 11:14:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Last time I was stateside I was shooting with Dad and his gang, one of the guys was trying to work up a load that was hot enough for a certain match, dont remember which one, but it had to be so many FPS, and they tested a couple of your loads at random just to make sure it would be safe for the folks in the pits working the targets.
So anyone up for buffalo hunting? Found a place in Michigan that will let ya shoot one, and take the hide and meat for 1500 bucks. But its michigan, kinda like NYC Sala..................... |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 1:17:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Darn good shot, but buffalo hunters were used to working at ranges of up to 800 yards or so. That way the noise of the rifle would not spook the herd. They would shoot one buffalo through the lungs so it wouldn't die quickly. It just stood there with blod coming out it's nose. Then when others smelled the blood and came around to investigate, they would pick them off.
One of the other people at that fight was a young Bat Masterson. He was 15 at the time. His first job was working with buffalo hunters. I believe he hired on as a skinner. Lowest ranking job of the crew. His older brother was there too. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:53:07 PM EDT
[#17]
My Pedersoli Quigley model Sharps 45-110 540 grain... switching to paper patched...
 Me and My Sharps  I load a HEAVY lead slug slathered in SPG on up to 85 grains of 2F 777 and a magnum primer Wet patch the barrel with Ballistol every 5 shots... she can print pretty respectable... Sorry I don't have a scan of a target... But I guarantee she is well within minute of Buffalo out past a grand! and easily within minute of Kiowas warrior.... As long as he sat still! |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 5:05:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Wow! Lots of lovers of the great rifles on this modern site!
I've owned an IAB sharps replica in 45-70 for many years and while it shoots good I wanted a little more omff. Here's my Pedersoli Billy Dixon model in 45-90:  I did toss the worthless Pedersoli tang sight and replace it with a Lee Shavers (another $460 cough cough), I also replaced the front blade with a globe tunnel and interchangable reticles :  Here are some cartridge comparisons, left to right first of course is our beloved 5.56, next my friends 45-120 with 570gr bullet, then my 45-90 with 535gr bullet, last my 45-70 with 405gr bullet:  Sharps rifles are very fun rifles!!!
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Posted: 2/24/2006 1:15:24 AM EDT
[#19]
Indeed, We should have a Arfkom Sharps Shoot sometime! Anyone else thinking about going to the Quigley match this summer? |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 1:26:25 AM EDT
[#20]
I had a pretty cool Texas History professor in college. After his lecture on this topic, et al, we went to the Adobe Walls area then to Palo Duro Canyon where the Commanche were finally gutted.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 1:35:52 AM EDT
[#21]
I'm in the midst of a Sharps fit right now.
How do you like the Pedersoli?
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Posted: 2/24/2006 1:42:38 AM EDT
[#22]
When I was at Schofield Barracks, at the rod and gun club, there was a guy shooting a .45-70 pistol through a Chrony. He flinched on one of the shots, spreading Chrony debris down the range. Everyone on the line did a WTF then realized what happened, it turned to laughing.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 2:08:44 AM EDT
[#23]
I'll step in.... I am very fond of my Pedersoli. Fit & finish is excellent. Accuracy is stellar. While a Shilo Sharps is just a bit better quality, you'll pay double & wait 2 years to get it. Order a Pedersoli from Cabelas & enjoy. 
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Posted: 2/24/2006 3:51:02 AM EDT
[#24]
Ive not been able to shoot mine at anything other than 50 yds, havent even really sighted it in, but it a fun gun to shot. Quietshooter was hitting golf balls offhand at 25 with nitro loads! |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 3:52:30 AM EDT
[#25]
I had read the Mike Venturino article also. They used some form of Doppler radar to recreate the shot. A spotter told the shooter how much more angle to lay in till it was duplicated.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 3:59:14 AM EDT
[#26]
Does anyone know if the article about recreating the shot has been posted anyplace online?
Id love to find a copy. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:05:11 AM EDT
[#27]
I found the article on page 120 of the "Shotgun News Treasury, Best of 1997-2000". They were able to track the entire flight of the bullet using the rader.
50-90 with 675gr bullet, 90gr BP, 35 degree elevation - MV 1216 FPS landed 3600 yards 50-90 with 650gr bullet, 90gr BP, 35 degree elevation - MV 1301 FPS landed 3245 yards 50-90 with 675gr bullet, 90gr BP, 45 degree elevation - MV 1275 FPS landed 3190 yards achieved 4000 feet in elevation, 30 second flight time. 50-90 with 675gr bullet, 90gr BP, 5 degree elevation - MV 1275 FPS landed 1517 yards(Billy Dixon shot) 50-90 with 450gr bullet, 100gr BP, 35 degree elevation - MV 1400 FPS landed 2585 yards 45-110 with 550gr bullet, 100gr BP, 35 degree elevation - 1322 FPS 3575 yards(Quigley load) 45-110 with 550gr bullet, 100gr BP, 5 degree elevation - 1361 FPS 1430 yards(Quigley load) |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:21:22 AM EDT
[#28]
Thanks BobP.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:23:38 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:29:19 AM EDT
[#30]
So, using the highlighted section, anyone want to calculate how much you'd have to lead a walking buffalo at that range? 
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:42:23 AM EDT
[#31]
There was an article last year that said when researchers lasered all the surrounding terrain they got a max distance of about 800 yards. They also said the distance was contrived by his wife and a biographer to sell book many years after the fact. It was also a borrowed gun as he was not actually buffalo hunting. I think only one white man was killed in this horrible attack before the indians ran off and they sat around trading random shots at one another. While there were only 27 "white men", in the following years hundreds of people have claimed to be there.
I'm sure actual historians and researchers got it wrong and he really borrowed a random gun and shot a guy on the other side of a butte or something using a radar or maybe a ballonist to spot for him.  Bullets do go that far. In the late 19th century, the US Army did some research with 45-70, 45-90 and 450/577 Martini after reviewing reports of british soldiers bringing distant troop to bear with indirect fire. The targets they set up were several feet wide and over twenty feet long on the beachs at Creedmore. They were up to 3000 yds away as I recall. It was difficult to hit but the rounds that hit would have been serious injuries so it was considered a plausible idea. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 5:44:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Does anyone know if he was actually aiming at the individual Indian he hit? Or was he just aiming at a group of Indians and happened to get lucky?
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Posted: 2/24/2006 6:06:34 AM EDT
[#33]
I googled it and found a slightly different version of the writeup by Venturino. It's essentially a shorter version of the article I have from Shotgun News.
members.tripod.com/~powderburns/sharps.html edit for spelling errors |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 6:08:41 AM EDT
[#34]
you sure about those numbers. Sounds a little optimistic. I'm no expert though. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 6:39:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Linky no worky, but it could just be my .gov minders telling me to get back to work |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 6:40:47 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 2/25/2006 4:47:30 PM EDT
[#37]
You wouldn't shoot at a buff at that range! Most buffalo runners chose their shooting positions at about 300 yards. That way they had enough knock down power, but were far away enough so as not to spook the animals.
I can't remember for sure... it was either over 900fps, or somewhere around 750fps. Either way, 530 grains of lead going 750fps should be about twice the energy of a .45ACP. I do know that it should take about 3 seconds for the bullet to reach 100 yards, and that drop from a 100 yard zero is about 1600 inches! |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 4:53:32 PM EDT
[#38]
Good Lord, man! Put some pants on! 
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Posted: 2/25/2006 4:53:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Pulled targets for some people shooting 45-70. Some of the rounds stuck in the cardboard.one bounced off.
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Posted: 2/25/2006 5:05:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Did you go to WT or Tech? ... I think that you and I may have had the same prof.
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Posted: 2/25/2006 5:08:14 PM EDT
[#41]
WOW! That's some tough cardboard... |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 9:29:50 PM EDT
[#42]
I know, just a failed attempt at levity. Even using a fine target sight, wouldn't the front site more than cover a buffalo at 3000 yards? I got to thinking about how much the target could move in 30 seconds. A slight error in range estimation would cause a miss of many yards shooting at a stationary target. |
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Posted: 2/26/2006 9:17:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Yeah he kinda pointed in the general direction of a big group and let one fly, Pretty much figured that if it made it to the group it oughta hit someone or something. It did. My brother has a highwall in 45-70 and I have a Trapdoor. You don't know what shooting a real rifle is until you go to 45-70 or up. I made up some light loads for 405 grns bullets for a club rifles only shoot and from anywhere more or less behind the shooter you could see the bullet almost all the way to the target. Pick it up out about 10 feet and then to impact. but that was at 80 yds or less. |
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Posted: 2/26/2006 9:53:57 PM EDT
[#44]
1664 inches is about 138 feet!!! Even with elevated sights there is no way to maintain a 'sight' picture. Seems to me hitting anything at range with that kind of holdover is pure 'luck' plain and simple. As always YMMV....... 
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Posted: 2/26/2006 10:03:38 PM EDT
[#45]
That sir is one beautiful rifle!! I'd love to shoot one like it some day...
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Posted: 2/26/2006 10:07:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Hot damn!!! These older style rifles are giving me serious 'wood'!!! If you don't mind my asking what might something like this cost??? Absofricking-lutly beautiful!!!... 
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Posted: 2/27/2006 12:13:33 AM EDT
[#47]
don't have any proof, but I'd imaginge at a group, at 3/4 of a mile away I doubt he could tell the difference between the horse and indian setting on it, I read an article where some shooters placed blaze orange 30" targets on 4'x4' squares at 1k yards, and shot and shot at them with sharps rifles, in the artical they said that depending on where the sun was in the sky affected how they saw the target, at certain angles of light, they couldn't differenciate the orange from the white, and when the sun was strait overhead, it cause mirage that caused many of them to hit way low of where they thought they were aiming. |
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Posted: 2/27/2006 2:56:32 AM EDT
[#48]
I picked up a used Italian 1874 Sharps Sporting Rifle, with tang sight, 60 black powder loads, lots of different front sight inserts and a nice wood ammo box for 650. Picked up a 1864 Sharps Cav carbine (Percussion) off the EE for 650 also. |
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Posted: 2/27/2006 11:44:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Yep, that's a lot of elevation. My rear sight, which is about 3.5" tall, will get my rifle out to probably 1100 or 1200 yards. When shooting that long a distance, most shooters strap on a cheek rest. It's also a very good idea to have a front sight with a level in it, so that you don't cant the rifle one way or another, which can REALLY throw you off. |
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Posted: 2/27/2006 12:01:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Billy lost his .50 Sharps in a river crossing, then had to settle for a .40 or .45 that was available locally. During the fight, the owner of a .50 Sharps dropped it and accitently killed himself, and his widow lent the rifle to Billy. So it was a type of rifle & cartridge he was familiar with and in fact preferred. The indians killed two white men in the initial attack. The two men were sleeping outside of the town in a wagon when the attack occured. The owner of the .50 Sharps Billy used also died during the fighting, although as I said due to self inflicted wounds. This Sunday I was shooting my AR-15 at 600 and 800 yards at a 600 yard NRA target (3 ft bull with a 12" 10 ring and 6" X ring). 800 yards is a long way out. |
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