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Posted: 10/29/2004 3:32:05 PM EDT
Billy came home from school today having been in a fight yet again. He's in the 8th grade that nice early puperty age. This is the second this year. The first was when another kid stole his drink then hit the kid after he tried to retreave it. Many people on this site know Billy. He is both honest and easy going, however dad is a skeptic so asked so many questions I have little doubt his story is truthful. His last half truth cost him a month without TV or video games.
This time Billy was shooting hoops in gym when another kid came over and asked to play HORSE. After Billy took the first shot the other kid ran off with the ball. Billy pursued like in a basketball game like mode trying to steal the ball back. A third kid comes up and pushes Billy saying "Hey leave my main man alone." in a wannabe ghetto type accent. Billy shoves the wannabe back who promptly gives Billy a bonk on the nose with his fist bringing the blood. Billy returns the favor with a fist to the eye. The other boy doesn't retaliate a second time and the two of them walk off towards the bathroom to freshen up one holding their eye the other one their nose. The teacher setting up halloween decorations doesn't see a thing till they walk by then sends them both to the office. They are separated and write out there stories and BOTH get a five day suspension for violating the no tolerance violence rule. It gets better, turns out that the prettiest girl in school is in the gym class and boy one and two both have a crush on her. I asked my son if he liked the girl but he just shrugged and said not really she talks like a MTV video and its a turnoff. Although Billy didn't want to go to the fall festaval tonight he felt he must make a showing or lose face so he pays his five bucks and goes. He's promptly kicked out for being suspended but they keep his money. My wife goes in to fetch the money and tells the principle that we want a meeting on Monday. She just shrugs and says one more and he gets a 10 day suspension. Well I'm certainly not tiffed at my son, nor am I even at the other kids. The school I have serious issues with and the principle is going to get her first and hopefully last taste of a in person Tj meeting on Monday. I'm afraid her fat ass is going to hear not everyone is a sheep or a wolf and I hold her personaly responsible for my sons safety and in my mind her policies and enforcement of those policies are not contusive to his safety nor the well being of the other children to include co-ed gym during puperty. Conservative with an attitude meets liberal! Tj |
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This is total BS! Don't back down from socialism crap that is spewing like an overflowing sewer. Kudos to the boy and good luck on Monday. Keep us posted and buy the kid an ice cream.
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Tell Billy that Jack thinks he done right. It would be good if disputes could be settled like this, instead of festering until someone brings a gun to settle it.
PS, tell the principal that YOU don't give a damn for their no tolerance policy, you will not stand for your son being assaulted, then told to walk away from it. |
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They are separated and write out there stories and BOTH get a five day suspension for violating the no tolerance violence rule.
Sad but true fact in schools today --- support your kid --- he did well. You sometimes have to pay the piper -- even when your right today. |
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Tj. I hate to be the one to say thins, but from experiance, she'll probably either 1. tell you what you want to hear and than not do a thing. or 2. Tell you in a long round about way to get bent and f-off as it's her school and she'll run it like she wants blah blah blah.
I had my fun with school admins....... |
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tagged. Hope it turns out well.
I bet your average teacher hates good parents...... and it's hard to find above-average teachers for what it pays now...... |
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Tell the little rocker... next time... [cartman]kick em squaw in da nutz![/cartman]
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TJ. Taught Vocational Electronics/Computers in Public School System in PA for six years.
Got so fed up w/ the PC BS that I finally left. Am now the IT Director for a NonProfit. Pulled our daughter out of Public School in the sixth grade and sent her to a private Christian school. This was while I was still teaching and did NOT go over well w/ administration. However, they could never answer all of my questions. Get your son OUT of the public INDOCTRINATION system and send him to a private school or else home school. Just my experience. YMMV. |
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i USED to be a school teacher....
this sounds like the typical bullshit Am3rikan udjucashun has learned from the Am3rikan injustice system. welcome to A3rika, comrade! where everyone is a criminal! innocent! guilty! makes no difference to us! you are ALL criminals and will will receive the same punishment! the party welcomes you to express your thought in a meeting of the local komsomol! |
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The half truth was regarding a homework assignment that he got a bad grade on. He said he did, it led me to think he did it in study hall. He actually tried to cram it at the beginning of the class instead of study hall. Didn't quite lie but wasn't quite honest either. I have no doubt he wouldn't lie about anything he perceives as so important as this. Still kids are kids and getting the whole story is like playing lawyer for you have to ask the right questions down to the most minute detail. Then ask them again and compare. Tis an old technique that works. This policy of punishing the starter of a fight the same as someone defending themself is pretty much against everything I believe in. In this case, we have a A's and B's student that was hit first being given the same punishment as the D's and F's student that started the fight. My son's education is being impacted by the actions of others and the only recourse the school is giving him is to become a victim by allowing such action to continue. What's sad is that these were the type incidents I felt public education could give him experience with. I hold no grudge against the other kid for I counted on his sort. I didn't count on the school undermining the lifes lesson by encouraging a victim mentality. The policy sucks. Hell I know I can't win but its just not in my nature to not fight. Letter to the editor, school board, and state representative goes out this weekend. Tj BTW, totally agree Campy |
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That is exactly what we teach them. I see it every day. Self defense is not an option. |
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Enroll him in a martial art
Sensei Wave has spoken. |
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Guilt and innocence are equally punished ... makes a whole lot of liberal sense. I probably don't need to tell you this but make sure your boy knows what you expect him to do and that he needs to follow your rules not the socialist assembly line called a school he attends.
The country needs more fathers like you raising more sons like yours! |
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LOL, He's actually a red belt in TKD. The other kid turned his back then sucker punched him. He's been holding back. I told him that ends today for if he's going to get suspended anyway might as well be a foot in the face as a fist. |
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I think he has, the pictures of his cellar have funny mats so it's either that or father and son gymnastics. Maybe this is just an inevitable part of 7-9th grade. I think everyone got in mild scraps at that age when I was a kid. The schools are nuts now, though. Couple of fights like that around here and they have social services involved. I can't imagine being a teacher in public school these days. |
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I had my boys in a Catholic elementary school. One day I get a call from the principal asking to see me. I go talk to him and he says that my son punched another kid in the nose. I asked what the other kid had done to provoke this and he said the boy had called my son a n----. I looked at him and said, "I don't see the problem." He looked at me and said, "Neither do I. I just wanted to let you know."
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Damn Campy, didn't expect that.
Have you ever been a teacher? I couldn't give litte Johnny a failing grade. I had to do remediation lessons w/ him while all of the other students sat around twiddiling their thumbs. I'm sorry, little Johnny was below average and could not make the grade in my class. But the OBE (Out Comes Based Education) system said that I had to hold everyone else back while I worked w/ little Johnny. Yes I could give the rest of the class "Enrichment lessons" while I worked w/ little Johnny, but most of them saw right through that. Think about disipline problems while the above average kids were waiting for me to get the litte Johnny's up to speed. (it never happened!!!) A Bell Curve is a Bell Curve no matter what the government says. Been there, Done that. Have you??? |
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Good for him man! That's how it should be.
And give that school hell. Doubt it will do any good, but you will at least have tried! |
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Kick the principal's ass, verbally. Demand a hearing at the school board to protest the suspension. Raise holy hell, then pull your son out of public school and put him in a private school or home school him. If you choose a Christian or Catholic school, they won't deny you if you can't afford full tuition. Alternately, home school him and include 2 hours a week in rifle instruction and drills.
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Do NOT go to the principal. GO to the school district superintendant tnd tell them its like this: My son defended himself from an attack. Either the suspension goes away, or I am going to the school board and the papers.
School districts HATE bad publicity. GIVE THEM HELL. Ops |
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My opinion, worth what ya'll paid for it ... and I acknowledge up front that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, since I've got no kids of my own. But, not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me before!
I think that both you and the principal are correct. Your son should absolutely stand up for himself when someone punches him. Many provocations one can simply be the bigger man about and walk away, but a fist must be met with a fist (or more). So I think he completely did the right thing - and it sounds like the kids were both okay with it, and the problem was essentially done by the time the teacher got invovled. IMO you're right to not be mad at Billy - he clearly did the right thing. On the other hand, if the school has a clear "no-fighting" policy, and your kid was aware of it, then the school needs to enforce it (or jsut get rid of it) since it's also important for kids to learn that sometimes there's a price to pay even for doing the right thing, and when we are part of organizations/societies, there are rules and consequences that we may not always agree with. (example in point - many of us here obeyed the AWB when it was in effect, even though we all thought it was both wrong and stupid). So I don't think the principal is wrong for insisting on "the letter of the law" if the school has a clear policy, so I don't think you really can complain about them enforcing a known policy. But I do think you're correct to push them on the policy itself (i.e. perhaps an exception for "self-defense when it comes to suspension, since otherwise the innocent can be punished for not letting bullies pick on them). It's too bad you don't live closer to Nashville - next time Billy gets in trouble you could "punish" him by making him paint my fiancee's house! |
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And one BIG ditto from Orygun. NMSight |
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AHH, Finally another believer. You will NEVER win w/ the the public school system. They suck the federal teat for money so hard that your arguments will always fall on deaf ears. |
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TJ I work in a local school as a special education aide. I have worked in "the system" in several capacities starting as a custodian, subtitute teacher, maintenance, and kindergarden aide. Probably the only reason I don't go into to teaching full time is the "socialist BS."
Good for you, checking up on, and backing Billy. If the principal gets too radical, they really hate it when you go to school board meetings and/or bring it to the superintendents attention. "Been there, done that, got a really nice T-shirt" After all, they/we work for you, the taxpayer/parents. (but I'm not your "usual school employee" I'll do most anything to help a kid learn, can't stand "holier than thou educators" that think they are Gods gift to the "system!") Stand your ground! We had a Dr.'s son that was in a similar situation. He was an honor student, active in the community, church, sports, etc. Some wanna-be "gangster" attacked him. He throughly trounced him and they both got suspended. Long story short, Dad goes to school board meeting, a few letters to the editor, got the other parents in the community involved and now kids don't get suspended for protecting themselves. It's high time we take back our country and our schools from the so called liberal experts! As usual JMHO and YMMV, Hessian-1out! |
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Sensei Wave speaks wisely. |
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Exactly!! 80 + % of the "Teachers" I worked w/ were High School grads straight to College to 'Teaching Certificate' to 'In the Classroom'. They had no idea of the real work world. ie. Shift work, Mandatory overtime, docked pay, etc. I am NOT trounching all teachers, most are very dedicated and really try their best. They are just up against a system that will NOT allow them to do what they really want to do. If little Johnny is not cut out to be an Electrical Engineer or Computer Programmer, I should be allowed to teach him how to just solder components, terminate Cat 5 jacks and plugs or whatever he/she is capable of. To just keep 'pushing him on' is a just setting him/her up for failure later on in life. Sorry for the rant .... Just something that I feel very strongly about having experienced it. |
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Thanks Hessian, this is exactly what I have in mind. I know the principle will just hide behind policy which often I believe is just a shield from parents. I may not win but the whole county will know about it. Not only has the school system by policy denied students the fundamental right to defend themself but also has a policy to force written confessions that could possibly be used in court without legal representation. This country may turn communistic one day but not without a fight. Tj |
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I think schools should let gets kick each others asses as long as its a fair fight
You aint going to stop it and kicking a kid out of school only makes things worst, really how many kids want to goto school to begin with? |
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The Socialist Republic of Blount County
Dear Editor, I write this letter today in hopes that you will have the courage to publish it for I’m afraid it may not be what many want to hear. My son is in the 8th grade at William Blount Middle School. I get a call Friday from him advising me that he is in the principles office and had been in a fight. Worried at first, he tells me he is all right and all it involved was a couple shoves and a couple blows. The usual parent questions followed who shoved whom first and who hit whom first that my son reassures me the other kid did. OK, so far just a kid scuffle and soon to be forgotten. After all, one of the reasons we parents send our children to public school is learning how to interface with others good or bad. Still a parent must do what a responsible parent must and the obligatory scolding and promise of punishment follows. None of this really surprises me much since my son is a bit of a loner, easy going, good school grades, and in the band, which has always been a target for being picked on. This wasn’t the first time and probably won’t be the last but as I have said kids will be kids and how one handles these issues is a character building experience. Many of his band friends are going through similar experiences and some even refuse to use the bathroom at school for fear of being beaten or head dunked. Things haven’t changed much in 30 years I think to myself but boy was I wrong. Well upon his return home, he hands me a fill in the blank form from the school with checked boxes including 5 day suspension, fighting or threatening violence, and signed confession. Now, my suspicion is peaked and I probe my son for details. Even though the other boy started the fight he got the same punishment. Mind you that I hold absolutely no malice towards the other boy and am certain that he is probably one really great kid for most are at age 13 but one has to wonder why the same punishment. The answer became quite clear as my son tells me and later confirmed by the principle that the no violence policy does not allow a child to defend themselves and they are deemed just as guilty as the child who starts a fight. My head is spinning at this point as I try to figure how this discourages violence. The more I think on it the more I am convinced, it does not but instead establishes social behavior of either predators or victims with no in-between. I’m sorry I may have sent my child to public school to learn how to deal with others but not to have the school to alter his behavior pattern to a victim or predator for I don’t want him to be either no parent should. The right for self defense from attack is fundamental to the American way of life. It is protected by not only states law but also fundamental to the constitution of the United States. The Supreme Court recently ruled that police officers are not obligated to protect the public yet our schools by policy direct behavior to expect just that in life. This led me to ask where was the teacher and did she see this. No was the reply for she was busy putting up decorations and sent us to the principle after she saw us heading to the bathroom him holding his eye and me my bloody nose. Is the teacher obligated to protect your children? Well, I guess not if police officers aren’t obligated to protect you why would a teacher be obligated to protect your child. Now comes the rub, you child isn’t allowed to protect himself. The plot thickens as I question the signed confessions. Apparently this is policy too under threat of additional punishment if not completed. So now we have a school mandating that a child sign a document that can be used in both civil and criminal courts without being advised of their legal rights nor the right to legal council. I immediately think, “Where the hell is this Communist Russia?” All right my son will take his punishment for as a father it is our responsibility to teach our sons to be a man and a man lives up to his responsibilities in life. What I submit to you, the reader, that both these boys’ civil rights were violated by school policy. This policy violates our way of life and encourages social behavior contrary to productive society. It is a policy that teaches the government will take care of me and the victim is as guilty as the criminal. This impacts our future social programs and thus your tax burden. I don’t recall voting for anyone of any party that encourages this yet we as citizens of Blount County are expected to tolerate it. Yes this school board policy left as is and in the long run will impact you the average Blount County citizen through your tax burden and way of life by adding to the social burden of our society. Yes, ours, not the school boards but the citizens of this great county. Many of my friends who do not have children in school already complain about helping to fund them. I would expect they would even be more shocked to learn their money is being spent teaching a socialistic behavior that will do nothing but increase their burden even more in the future. You see it is not only these two boys who’s civil rights were violated by equal punishment for differing offenses and forced signed confessions with no legal representation but you the citizen of Blount County as well. It is you the tax paying citizen that will eventually pay the bill for the social behavior being taught in our schools in the form of more police and additional social welfare programs. It simply angers me that we as parents must not only teach ethics and morals but work to undo what the schools by policy does to insure our children become productive members of society and not a burden on society. I ask you to take pen in hand or phone to ear and voice your opposition to this policy of equal punishment for victim and attacker as well as signed confessions without representation. It is you that will eventually pay the ultimate price. I believe we all would rather see this policy changed by the public will rather than in our courts which ultimately we the taxpayer will pay the cost. Blount County School District XXXXXX XXXXXX I thank you for your time and support on this issue. |
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TJ,
A few things: First, bravo to you for fighting this. Stand your ground. Hard. Secondly, I'd suggest you shorten that letter. After reading your first post then the letter, there are ways to make it more concise. Simply state that your son was attacked, to the point of blood-letting, defended himself, and was punished the same as the attacker. Thirdly, stay away from citing the Constitution and State law as a reaason yuor son has the right to defend himself. You should leverage on the fact that it's just plain common sense, that ANYONE can understand, that EVERYONE should defend themselves if attacked. There are some, including the paper Editor and those in the school board that might take the Constitution talk as you being an extremist. You will appeal to a greater range of audience if you make it more appealing to EVERYONE - a common sense emotional appeal - "Boy gets attacked, boy defends himself from bully. - What's wrong with that!?" See my point? The idea is to make it near impossible for them to respond to other than to say, "Yeah, our policy really does suck." ALWAYS put the onus back on the school, principal and school board. "What should my son have done? -- "Called a teacher." -- "After he got the bloody nose from the attack? -- "Yes." -- "Unacceptable. That incident proves the school is not capable of protecting my son's safety, so what are YOU going to do about it??" Also, when you go have your face-to-face with the retards at the school, TAPE RECORD the conversation and let them know in advance you're doing it. Good luck buddy and lease keep us informed. Also, please tell your son the "he done good!" Damn I am just sick of liberals.... CMOS |
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Let's actually compare a better law. Every state in this country has a criminal law that says it is illegal to commit murder. Every state also has some sort of clause that says given certain circumstances it is legal to murder someone. it is called self defense or justification. Unless it is clear cut and I mean five guys with shotguns and ten witnesses with video camera, you murder anyone, you will be arrested, plain and simple. You will be questioned and either sent to jail or released. In BTK's circumstance two boys got into a fight one started it and one finished it. Both got caught (arested) and then questioned. Both were given a trial and both received the same sentence. From what I understand from TJ's post even the principle new it was self defense, but they have a zero tolerance policy of violence. Apply this thinking to murder statues, then every state would have a zero tolerance for murder, no exceptions. |
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Stupid as some laws or rules are one must try to obey the laws or rules. The problem I have is that the equal punishment for each party. If Billy had received a five day in school suspension and the boy who started it a 5 day out of school suspension it would be alot different than both getting the same punishment. Breaking a rule and starting a fight are two different things.
Thanks for the adivce guys. Tj |
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TJ,
1) Stand your ground, since it drives the school administrators nuts to have parents that don't cower and bow down like kids have to. 2) "Meet me after school across the street from the Gym" were some of the best and worst times of my youth. Win or lose however, after the fight, everyone got along fine the next day. I wonder if inviting kids that have a beef to get into a ring with gloves on and a referee for 3 rounds would be a boon to school systems across the country. 3) As I learned in the 8th grade, there is a Pecking order, just like chickens have, sooner or later everybody falls into line in their place. That's why home schooling has been so beneficial to my family, if there is no peer group thus no peers to have to keep up with, no fashion or fads to participate in to be cool - the result is kids that are emotionally and intellectually superior to the average public school product, these are kids that relate to adults easier than kids their own age. 4) Home school has been the biggest gift that I could have ever given my children. So - why don't more families home school??? - easy.... Society dictates that it takes a lot of money to keep up with the Jonses, and to do so requires a 2 income family -- BULLSHIT! only if we buy into that model does it impact us. Raising children is tough, and it's serious work to mold tham into responsible adults. Keep up the good fight TJ. A |
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The guilt/innocence line reminds me of the Army. Two of us went out and my pard got drunk and raised cain. I did what I REASONABLY could to keep him out of trouble, but he was hell bent on it. Next day, BOTH of us got into hot water. Him for drinking and me for letting him drink. that sucked. Never went nanywhere with him again. |
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Go meet the teacher, but bring a 2nd adult male in a suit. His job is to take notes, and to identify himself as your "advisor". It will get the principal thinking about lawyers..., otherwise the principal will pat you on your head and send you on your way.
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There are 3 main things schools are worried about:
1. If you take Billy out they loose A LOT of money. Tell the and then the school board that if this isn't resolved and MOVED OFF THIS RECORD (This will matter A LOT) you will take him out. Take the sups. off the record. If he has one for fighting every new school that he goes to they will tell all of the teachers that he has a record of fighting and he will be looked at diffrently (in a bad way). They will also make the susp. in the future for anything much longer. His grades will also drop a lot and that is bad because he will be selecting classes for HS soon and honors classes may not be an option due to the grades. (Note: Here it is 1st and 2 qtr. grades) 2. Tell them that you will sue for robery for the $5. This scares school districts that they will be suied and then loose more money. 3. Tell them that you will report the teacher to the State Board of Education and try to get her liscense taken away. 4. Also send this to the newspapers. (Done.) 3 main school board fears are: Money, Lawyers, State Board of Education Hope this helps, Good Luck! ETA more info |
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Stomp em good. It's a bunch of garbage. my old school had a "no self defense" policy. Kinda like gun control. Just report it. Problem is every kid I ever got in a fight with was bigger than me and either on the wrestling team, football team or both. I got into it several timeswith the same kid when I was in school and since the other kids mom was a teacher we got the same punishment. My dad was so pissed he went down to the office and verbally had it out with the principal. The kid was 4 yrs older because of failures but I got him pretty good. Then the teacher grabs me and the dumb fuck held me becuase I was beating the other kids ass, then the other kid hits me in the face. I kicked him in the chest. After that we went to the office and the fucking principle is taking care of his own, the vice principle is the wrestling coach and the other kid is a star wrestler. So a year later we get into it again in the locker room and they won't do shit, low and behold it's right before state championship semi finals for wrestling. Now some years later the other guy is a minimum wage fuck up and the principle lost his job after his 4th DUI. It was always funny when that same principal would get the shit beat out of him several times a year.
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EXCELLENT LETTER TJ!!!
Tell BTK Hi for me. Do we need to send TequilaBob down there and have a "chat" with the principle over this? |
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yup, to many families MUST have the two person income in order to be "happy" and keep above their debt payments. |
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Tell billy to next time form a "pointer" with all four fingers extended and joined, like giving a hand salute. Thrust the points of his fingers into said bullys throat. Repeat if required. also, use the same motion on other soft points of the body.
This goes for the principal too. |
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