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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 10/29/2004 2:32:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:37:34 PM EST
Give 'em hell!
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:39:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:41:58 PM EST
This is total BS! Don't back down from socialism crap that is spewing like an overflowing sewer. Kudos to the boy and good luck on Monday. Keep us posted and buy the kid an ice cream.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:42:57 PM EST
Tell Billy that Jack thinks he done right. It would be good if disputes could be settled like this, instead of festering until someone brings a gun to settle it.

PS, tell the principal that YOU don't give a damn for their no tolerance policy, you will not stand for your son being assaulted, then told to walk away from it.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:42:57 PM EST
They are separated and write out there stories and BOTH get a five day suspension for violating the no tolerance violence rule.


Sad but true fact in schools today --- support your kid --- he did well.

You sometimes have to pay the piper -- even when your right today.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:43:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 2:44:31 PM EST by photoman]
Tj. I hate to be the one to say thins, but from experiance, she'll probably either 1. tell you what you want to hear and than not do a thing. or 2. Tell you in a long round about way to get bent and f-off as it's her school and she'll run it like she wants blah blah blah.

I had my fun with school admins.......
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:43:29 PM EST
tagged. Hope it turns out well.

I bet your average teacher hates good parents......


and it's hard to find above-average teachers for what it pays now......
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:45:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:57:30 PM EST
TJ. Taught Vocational Electronics/Computers in Public School System in PA for six years.

Got so fed up w/ the PC BS that I finally left. Am now the IT Director for a NonProfit.

Pulled our daughter out of Public School in the sixth grade and sent her to a private Christian school. This was while I was still teaching and did NOT go over well w/ administration.

However, they could never answer all of my questions.

Get your son OUT of the public INDOCTRINATION system and send him to a private school or else home school.

Just my experience. YMMV.

Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:13:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:16:32 PM EST
Haha, I love how you AK guys bash commies
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:28:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 3:31:19 PM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:41:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
. I didn't count on the school undermining the lifes lesson by encouraging a victim mentality. The policy sucks.



That is exactly what we teach them. I see it every day. Self defense is not an option.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:45:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:50:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:54:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:55:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:00:55 PM EST
I had my boys in a Catholic elementary school. One day I get a call from the principal asking to see me. I go talk to him and he says that my son punched another kid in the nose. I asked what the other kid had done to provoke this and he said the boy had called my son a n----. I looked at him and said, "I don't see the problem." He looked at me and said, "Neither do I. I just wanted to let you know."

Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:09:56 PM EST
Damn Campy, didn't expect that.

Have you ever been a teacher? I couldn't give litte Johnny a failing grade. I had to do remediation lessons w/ him while all of the other students sat around twiddiling their thumbs.

I'm sorry, little Johnny was below average and could not make the grade in my class.

But the OBE (Out Comes Based Education) system said that I had to hold everyone else back while I worked w/ little Johnny. Yes I could give the rest of the class "Enrichment lessons" while I worked w/ little Johnny, but most of them saw right through that.

Think about disipline problems while the above average kids were waiting for me to get the litte Johnny's up to speed. (it never happened!!!)

A Bell Curve is a Bell Curve no matter what the government says.

Been there, Done that. Have you???

Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:22:36 PM EST
Good for him man! That's how it should be.

And give that school hell. Doubt it will do any good, but you will at least have tried!
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:28:42 PM EST
Kick the principal's ass, verbally. Demand a hearing at the school board to protest the suspension. Raise holy hell, then pull your son out of public school and put him in a private school or home school him. If you choose a Christian or Catholic school, they won't deny you if you can't afford full tuition. Alternately, home school him and include 2 hours a week in rifle instruction and drills.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:32:15 PM EST
Do NOT go to the principal. GO to the school district superintendant tnd tell them its like this: My son defended himself from an attack. Either the suspension goes away, or I am going to the school board and the papers.

School districts HATE bad publicity. GIVE THEM HELL. Ops
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:35:03 PM EST
My opinion, worth what ya'll paid for it ... and I acknowledge up front that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, since I've got no kids of my own. But, not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me before!


I think that both you and the principal are correct.

Your son should absolutely stand up for himself when someone punches him. Many provocations one can simply be the bigger man about and walk away, but a fist must be met with a fist (or more). So I think he completely did the right thing - and it sounds like the kids were both okay with it, and the problem was essentially done by the time the teacher got invovled. IMO you're right to not be mad at Billy - he clearly did the right thing.

On the other hand, if the school has a clear "no-fighting" policy, and your kid was aware of it, then the school needs to enforce it (or jsut get rid of it) since it's also important for kids to learn that sometimes there's a price to pay even for doing the right thing, and when we are part of organizations/societies, there are rules and consequences that we may not always agree with. (example in point - many of us here obeyed the AWB when it was in effect, even though we all thought it was both wrong and stupid).


So I don't think the principal is wrong for insisting on "the letter of the law" if the school has a clear policy, so I don't think you really can complain about them enforcing a known policy. But I do think you're correct to push them on the policy itself (i.e. perhaps an exception for "self-defense when it comes to suspension, since otherwise the innocent can be punished for not letting bullies pick on them).

It's too bad you don't live closer to Nashville - next time Billy gets in trouble you could "punish" him by making him paint my fiancee's house!
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:35:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By AyeAye:
TJ. Taught Vocational Electronics/Computers in Public School System in PA for six years.

Got so fed up w/ the PC BS that I finally left. Am now the IT Director for a NonProfit.

Pulled our daughter out of Public School in the sixth grade and sent her to a private Christian school. This was while I was still teaching and did NOT go over well w/ administration.

However, they could never answer all of my questions.

Get your son OUT of the public INDOCTRINATION system and send him to a private school or else home school.

Just my experience. YMMV.




And one BIG ditto from Orygun.

NMSight
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:38:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By CS223:
Kick the principal's ass, verbally. Demand a hearing at the school board to protest the suspension. Raise holy hell, then pull your son out of public school and put him in a private school or home school him. If you choose a Christian or Catholic school, they won't deny you if you can't afford full tuition. Alternately, home school him and include 2 hours a week in rifle instruction and drills.



AHH, Finally another believer.

You will NEVER win w/ the the public school system.

They suck the federal teat for money so hard that your arguments will always fall on deaf ears.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:38:50 PM EST
Go gettem' TJ
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:41:13 PM EST
TJ I work in a local school as a special education aide. I have worked in "the system" in several capacities starting as a custodian, subtitute teacher, maintenance, and kindergarden aide. Probably the only reason I don't go into to teaching full time is the "socialist BS."
Good for you, checking up on, and backing Billy. If the principal gets too radical, they really hate it when you go to school board meetings and/or bring it to the superintendents attention. "Been there, done that, got a really nice T-shirt" After all, they/we work for you, the taxpayer/parents.

(but I'm not your "usual school employee" I'll do most anything to help a kid learn, can't stand "holier than thou educators" that think they are Gods gift to the "system!")

Stand your ground! We had a Dr.'s son that was in a similar situation. He was an honor student, active in the community, church, sports, etc. Some wanna-be "gangster" attacked him. He throughly trounced him and they both got suspended. Long story short, Dad goes to school board meeting, a few letters to the editor, got the other parents in the community involved and now kids don't get suspended for protecting themselves. It's high time we take back our country and our schools from the so called liberal experts!

As usual JMHO and YMMV,

Hessian-1out!
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 4:41:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wave:
Enroll him in a martial art so that he'll wax anyone at the next fight so that he'll learn discipline and how to avoid conflict.

Sensei Wave has spoken.



Sensei Wave speaks wisely.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 5:07:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hessian-1:
TJ I work in a local school as a special education aide. I have worked in "the system" in several capacities starting as a custodian, subtitute teacher, maintenance, and kindergarden aide. Probably the only reason I don't go into to teaching full time is the "socialist BS."
Good for you, checking up on, and backing Billy. If the principal gets too radical, they really hate it when you go to school board meetings and/or bring it to the superintendents attention. "Been there, done that, got a really nice T-shirt" hey/we
(but I'm not your "usual school employee" I'll do most anything to help a kid learn, can't stand "holier than thou educators" that think they are Gods gift to the "system!")
Stand your ground! We had a Dr.'s son that was in a similar situation. He was an honor student, active in the community, church, sports, etc. Some wanna-be "gangster" attacked him. He throughly trounced him and they both got suspended. Long story short, Dad goes to school board meeting, a few letters to the editor, got the other parents in the community involved and now kids don't get suspended for protecting themselves. It's high time we take back our country and our schools from the so called liberal experts!

As usual JMHO and YMMV,

Hessian-1out!



Exactly!! 80 + % of the "Teachers" I worked w/ were High School grads straight to College to 'Teaching Certificate' to 'In the Classroom'.

They had no idea of the real work world. ie. Shift work, Mandatory overtime, docked pay, etc.

I am NOT trounching all teachers, most are very dedicated and really try their best.

They are just up against a system that will NOT allow them to do what they really want to do.

If little Johnny is not cut out to be an Electrical Engineer or Computer Programmer, I should be allowed to teach him how to just solder components, terminate Cat 5 jacks and plugs or whatever he/she is capable of.

To just keep 'pushing him on' is a just setting him/her up for failure later on in life.

Sorry for the rant .... Just something that I feel very strongly about having experienced it.

Link Posted: 10/30/2004 2:27:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 2:32:52 AM EST
I think schools should let gets kick each others asses as long as its a fair fight

You aint going to stop it and kicking a kid out of school only makes things worst, really how many kids want to goto school to begin with?
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 4:36:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 4:43:17 AM EST
Outstanding.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:08:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2004 5:09:24 AM EST by CMOS]
TJ,

A few things:

First, bravo to you for fighting this. Stand your ground. Hard.

Secondly, I'd suggest you shorten that letter. After reading your first post then the letter, there are ways to make it more concise. Simply state that your son was attacked, to the point of blood-letting, defended himself, and was punished the same as the attacker.

Thirdly, stay away from citing the Constitution and State law as a reaason yuor son has the right to defend himself. You should leverage on the fact that it's just plain common sense, that ANYONE can understand, that EVERYONE should defend themselves if attacked. There are some, including the paper Editor and those in the school board that might take the Constitution talk as you being an extremist. You will appeal to a greater range of audience if you make it more appealing to EVERYONE - a common sense emotional appeal - "Boy gets attacked, boy defends himself from bully. - What's wrong with that!?" See my point?

The idea is to make it near impossible for them to respond to other than to say, "Yeah, our policy really does suck." ALWAYS put the onus back on the school, principal and school board. "What should my son have done? -- "Called a teacher." -- "After he got the bloody nose from the attack? -- "Yes." -- "Unacceptable. That incident proves the school is not capable of protecting my son's safety, so what are YOU going to do about it??"

Also, when you go have your face-to-face with the retards at the school, TAPE RECORD the conversation and let them know in advance you're doing it.

Good luck buddy and lease keep us informed.

Also, please tell your son the "he done good!"

Damn I am just sick of liberals....

CMOS
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:09:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2004 5:11:55 AM EST by eagle1911]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
My opinion, worth what ya'll paid for it ... and I acknowledge up front that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, since I've got no kids of my own. But, not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me before!


I think that both you and the principal are correct.

Your son should absolutely stand up for himself when someone punches him. Many provocations one can simply be the bigger man about and walk away, but a fist must be met with a fist (or more). So I think he completely did the right thing - and it sounds like the kids were both okay with it, and the problem was essentially done by the time the teacher got invovled. IMO you're right to not be mad at Billy - he clearly did the right thing.

On the other hand, if the school has a clear "no-fighting" policy, and your kid was aware of it, then the school needs to enforce it (or jsut get rid of it) since it's also important for kids to learn that sometimes there's a price to pay even for doing the right thing, and when we are part of organizations/societies, there are rules and consequences that we may not always agree with. (example in point - many of us here obeyed the AWB when it was in effect, even though we all thought it was both wrong and stupid).


So I don't think the principal is wrong for insisting on "the letter of the law" if the school has a clear policy, so I don't think you really can complain about them enforcing a known policy. But I do think you're correct to push them on the policy itself (i.e. perhaps an exception for "self-defense when it comes to suspension, since otherwise the innocent can be punished for not letting bullies pick on them).

It's too bad you don't live closer to Nashville - next time Billy gets in trouble you could "punish" him by making him paint my fiancee's house!



Let's actually compare a better law. Every state in this country has a criminal law that says it is illegal to commit murder. Every state also has some sort of clause that says given certain circumstances it is legal to murder someone. it is called self defense or justification. Unless it is clear cut and I mean five guys with shotguns and ten witnesses with video camera, you murder anyone, you will be arrested, plain and simple. You will be questioned and either sent to jail or released.

In BTK's circumstance two boys got into a fight one started it and one finished it. Both got caught (arested) and then questioned. Both were given a trial and both received the same sentence. From what I understand from TJ's post even the principle new it was self defense, but they have a zero tolerance policy of violence. Apply this thinking to murder statues, then every state would have a zero tolerance for murder, no exceptions.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:27:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2004 5:27:47 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 5:54:21 AM EST
TJ,

1) Stand your ground, since it drives the school administrators nuts to have parents that don't cower and bow down like kids have to.

2) "Meet me after school across the street from the Gym" were some of the best and worst times of my youth. Win or lose however, after the fight, everyone got along fine the next day. I wonder if inviting kids that have a beef to get into a ring with gloves on and a referee for 3 rounds would be a boon to school systems across the country.

3) As I learned in the 8th grade, there is a Pecking order, just like chickens have, sooner or later everybody falls into line in their place. That's why home schooling has been so beneficial to my family, if there is no peer group thus no peers to have to keep up with, no fashion or fads to participate in to be cool - the result is kids that are emotionally and intellectually superior to the average public school product, these are kids that relate to adults easier than kids their own age.

4) Home school has been the biggest gift that I could have ever given my children. So - why don't more families home school??? - easy.... Society dictates that it takes a lot of money to keep up with the Jonses, and to do so requires a 2 income family -- BULLSHIT! only if we buy into that model does it impact us.

Raising children is tough, and it's serious work to mold tham into responsible adults. Keep up the good fight TJ.

A
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:46:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
Guilt and innocence are equally punished ... makes a whole lot of liberal sense. I probably don't need to tell you this but make sure your boy knows what you expect him to do and that he needs to follow your rules not the socialist assembly line called a school he attends.

The country needs more fathers like you raising more sons like yours!






The guilt/innocence line reminds me of the Army. Two of us went out and my pard got drunk and raised cain. I did what I REASONABLY could to keep him out of trouble, but he was hell bent on it.

Next day, BOTH of us got into hot water. Him for drinking and me for letting him drink.

that sucked.


Never went nanywhere with him again.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:47:12 AM EST
Go meet the teacher, but bring a 2nd adult male in a suit. His job is to take notes, and to identify himself as your "advisor". It will get the principal thinking about lawyers..., otherwise the principal will pat you on your head and send you on your way.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:59:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2004 7:07:13 AM EST by Penguin_101]
There are 3 main things schools are worried about:
1. If you take Billy out they loose A LOT of money. Tell the and then the school board that if this isn't resolved and MOVED OFF THIS RECORD (This will matter A LOT) you will take him out.
Take the sups. off the record. If he has one for fighting every new school that he goes to they will tell all of the teachers that he has a record of fighting and he will be looked at diffrently (in a bad way). They will also make the susp. in the future for anything much longer. His grades will also drop a lot and that is bad because he will be selecting classes for HS soon and honors classes may not be an option due to the grades. (Note: Here it is 1st and 2 qtr. grades)

2. Tell them that you will sue for robery for the $5. This scares school districts that they will be suied and then loose more money.

3. Tell them that you will report the teacher to the State Board of Education and try to get her liscense taken away.

4. Also send this to the newspapers. (Done.)

3 main school board fears are: Money, Lawyers, State Board of Education
Hope this helps, Good Luck!

ETA more info
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:27:32 AM EST
Excellent letter TJ! Give 'em hell!
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 8:32:19 AM EST
Stomp em good. It's a bunch of garbage. my old school had a "no self defense" policy. Kinda like gun control. Just report it. Problem is every kid I ever got in a fight with was bigger than me and either on the wrestling team, football team or both. I got into it several timeswith the same kid when I was in school and since the other kids mom was a teacher we got the same punishment. My dad was so pissed he went down to the office and verbally had it out with the principal. The kid was 4 yrs older because of failures but I got him pretty good. Then the teacher grabs me and the dumb fuck held me becuase I was beating the other kids ass, then the other kid hits me in the face. I kicked him in the chest. After that we went to the office and the fucking principle is taking care of his own, the vice principle is the wrestling coach and the other kid is a star wrestler. So a year later we get into it again in the locker room and they won't do shit, low and behold it's right before state championship semi finals for wrestling. Now some years later the other guy is a minimum wage fuck up and the principle lost his job after his 4th DUI. It was always funny when that same principal would get the shit beat out of him several times a year.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 8:44:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 9:53:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By xanadu:
4) Home school has been the biggest gift that I could have ever given my children. So - why don't more families home school??? - easy.... Society dictates that it takes a lot of money to keep up with the Jonses, and to do so requires a 2 income family -- BULLSHIT! only if we buy into that model does it impact us.



yup, to many families MUST have the two person income in order to be "happy" and keep above their debt payments.

Link Posted: 10/30/2004 10:00:55 AM EST
Tell billy to next time form a "pointer" with all four fingers extended and joined, like giving a hand salute. Thrust the points of his fingers into said bullys throat. Repeat if required. also, use the same motion on other soft points of the body.

This goes for the principal too.
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