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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:04:08 AM EDT
[#1]
If what i just read is true i hope he's dancing with the devil right now,and i hope the devils leading,
[url]http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-papabill.html[/url] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:19:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: If what i just read is true i hope he's dancing with the devil right now,and i hope the devils leading, [url]http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-papabill.html[/url] It is indeed true. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:21:16 AM EDT
[#3]
ding dong
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:27:26 AM EDT
[#4]
He revolutionized the firearms industry with his manufacturing techniques and designed some outstanding guns, but sold out American gunowners and his soul to try and save his own ass.
Burn in Hell Bill. [}:D] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:28:52 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: ding dong Then Bill Ruger made reliable equality affordable. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:45:32 AM EDT
[#6]
No doubt he'll again be condemned by many who are his inferiors.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:46:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: He revolutionized the firearms industry with his manufacturing techniques and designed some outstanding guns, but sold out American gunowners and his soul to try and save his own ass. Burn in Hell Bill. [}:D] He not only revolutionized the firearms manufacturing, but he developed a lot of new techniques for casting components using the ancient lost wax method. This technique enabled him to make components which pretty close to the final product thus enabling him to do a minimum amount of finish machining. He also developed ways to cast titanium. Today firearms is small prt of his business compared to making components for other industries. There was a huge article on him and his company in an American Rifleman. Personally for me I will not buy any of his guns due to the fact that he was one of the first companies to sell us down the tubes. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:51:50 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: No doubt he'll again be condemned by many who are his inferiors. I praise him for what he accomplished in his life, just as I condemn trying to compromise with an enemy that always wins when we compromise. I judge not the man, but the fruits he produced. Only God judges the man. My condolences to the Ruger family. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 10:55:03 AM EDT
[#9]
Well said GBT.
I also offer my condolences to the Ruger family. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 1:31:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Good side: he made high quality/good shooting guns at a price the common man could afford.
He packed his guns with features. He used new and better methods of making guns. Bad side: he sold all American shooters down the river because having reached the top he got lazy and stupid and didn't want to match Glock feature for feature and price for price so he called some reachable congressmen for a magazine ban law. His act of evil outweighed all the good or respectable things he did. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 1:51:11 PM EDT
[#11]
I own a couple Rugers that I purhased several years ago. I will never purchase another though.
Yes, he was a pioneer at times but in the end he betrayed the gun owners of the United States. Piss on him |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 2:06:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: His act of evil outweighed all the good or respectable things he did. Yep. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 2:07:43 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm surprised that someone as successful as Bill Ruger didn't know not to offer your enemy anything you can't afford to lose because they will take it and keep demanding more.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 2:09:54 PM EDT
[#14]
No mention of Bill Ruger being dead anywhere on the net.
Nadda on the Ruger webpage. Who is in charge of the rumors on the net? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 4:52:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I own a couple Rugers that I purhased several years ago. I will never purchase another though. Yes, he was a pioneer at times but in the end he betrayed the gun owners of the United States. Piss on him Another verity: An insult is not always the truth. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 4:57:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I'm surprised that someone as successful as Bill Ruger didn't know not to offer your enemy anything you can't afford to lose because they will take it and keep demanding more. He screwed up, later realized it, and spent the remainder of his years trying to redeem himself. If not for Ruger $$$$$, the cities' lawsuits against the (numerous) gun manufacturers would likely have borne fruit. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:05:05 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm deaf and dumb on the Ruger issue...could someone tell me [b]exactly[/b] what he did?
I'm trying to read between the lines...how did he sell gunowners..down the river? Thanks, [b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:16:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Do a search on this forum and GD/Firearms using Bill Ruger as keyword. Please try to keep an open mind.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:35:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: If not for Ruger $$$$$, the cities' lawsuits against the (numerous) gun manufacturers would likely have borne fruit. Raf, I gotta disagree with you on this one. When it came to the lawsuits, Ruger had as much--if not more--to lose as anyone else. What was the alternative? To give in and settle with, say, the Bradys for a "conduct remedy" only to invite dozens more lawsuits that would be after cash? Nope, nothing there except self-interest--not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you, but nothing particularly laudible either. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 5:42:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Of course it was self-interest.
Most people do things that way. Point is, after screwing up initially, way back when, he did [i]the right thing[/i] out of self interest the second time around instead of trying to cut another deal. See the difference? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 6:26:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Raf, here's your original post:
He screwed up, later realized it, and spent the remainder of his years trying to redeem himself. If not for Ruger $$$$$, the cities' lawsuits against the (numerous) gun manufacturers would likely have borne fruit. You've linked his stand against lawsuits to his "redemption," and in that context the fact that he did the right thing is meaningless--his alternative was bankruptcy and the loss of his business. Ruger didn't fight that battle to protect your rights--he faught it to protect HIS, and therein lies the difference. (edited because I cannot spell) |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 6:29:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Point is, after screwing up initially, way back when, he did [i]the right thing[/i] out of self interest the second time around instead of trying to cut another deal. Can you specify how he tried to do the right thing? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 6:57:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: Point is, after screwing up initially, way back when, he did [i]the right thing[/i] out of self interest the second time around instead of trying to cut another deal. Can you specify how he tried to do the right thing? Sure. By vigorously fighting the lawsuits and not caving a la S&W. He mistakenly tried to compromise once in the past. He wasn't fooled the second time. Some folks seem to think a person has to always be right, and never seem to remember that people make mistakes. The real measure of a person is: Do they make the same mistake twice? In Ruger's case, he didn't. I guess in some folks eyes only a [b]perfect[/b] past is worth honoring. I sometimes wonder if these same individuals have ever made any well-intentioned serious errors in their lives, and if they have learned from them. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 6:57:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: He revolutionized the firearms industry with his manufacturing techniques and designed some outstanding guns, but sold out American gunowners and his soul to try and save his own ass. Burn in Hell Bill. [}:D] You guys are brutal. [V] Bill Ruger screwed up when he supported a 15 round mag limit but by then he was an old man that probably thought giving in to the antis would appease them. He was wrong and his actions didn't help our cause. He did MANY more things right in his life and was a great firearms designer. How many kids learned to shoot with a 10/22 or a MKII pistol? Did that help further the Second Ammendment? How many kids learned to hunt with a Ruger? There's no justification for wishing that he burn in hell. That's damn immature, IMO. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:01:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Seems to me like Ruger can't win.
If he seeks a compromise, well that's out of self-interest. If he fights the Antis, well, that out of self-interest, too. Looks like the Ruger-bashers want to have it both ways. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:05:46 PM EDT
[#26]
So does anyone have a link to a story that says he's dead? I didn't see one......
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:19:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: You guys are brutal. [V] Bill Ruger screwed up when he supported a 15 round mag limit but by then he was an old man that probably thought giving in to the antis would appease them. He was wrong and his actions didn't help our cause. He did MANY more things right in his life and was a great firearms designer. How many kids learned to shoot with a 10/22 or a MKII pistol? Did that help further the Second Ammendment? How many kids learned to hunt with a Ruger? There's no justification for wishing that he burn in hell. That's damn immature, IMO. "supported" the 15 round limit? Isn't he the SAME Bill Ruger that actually helped WRITE the high cap mag ban? I'm looking for the article I read that says he was a leader in getting that passed..... |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:19:59 PM EDT
[#28]
if I were held liable for all the things I really did wrong and not just the things I got caught for, I would be in jail dead or completely discraced by the community. but I take solice in knowing that all you are just as bad in gods eyes and I am forgiven for my sins. yes he screwed up but please don't wish that he burns in hell, imagine how his family would feel if they heard some one say that about him. come on guys he screwed up but he was still one of us. I would hope that you would never wish me to go to hell because of my misguided actions.
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:32:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: You guys are brutal. [V] Bill Ruger screwed up when he supported a 15 round mag limit but by then he was an old man that probably thought giving in to the antis would appease them. He was wrong and his actions didn't help our cause. He did MANY more things right in his life and was a great firearms designer. How many kids learned to shoot with a 10/22 or a MKII pistol? Did that help further the Second Ammendment? How many kids learned to hunt with a Ruger? There's no justification for wishing that he burn in hell. That's damn immature, IMO. "supported" the 15 round limit? Isn't he the SAME Bill Ruger that actually helped WRITE the high cap mag ban? I'm looking for the article I read that says he was a leader in getting that passed..... OK. Let's say he wrote the ban. Does that change the rest of what I said? He screwed up. But he did far more good for us. My condolences to his family and friends. |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:34:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Geez, what a bunch of hardasses.
Ruger got dicked, big time. He figgered wrong and the LIBS got him. They still got him, even though he's dead, 'cuz you guys are still holding a grudge. Ruger wasn't all bad. He made a HUGE mistake thinking he could compromise with the Left. I'm sorry he's gone. Ruger was a great guy and one helluva mind in the firearms business. We were lucky to have lived while he was around. Who's the next GENIUS out there? |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 7:37:34 PM EDT
[#31]
The hell of it is, if the high cap mag ban had made the anti's go away, never to return we would be calling Bill Ruger the greatest thing since sliced bread and ice cream.
The appeasement didn't work (it very rarely does) and some want him to burn in hell. [:(] |
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Posted: 7/7/2002 9:26:15 PM EDT
[#32]
"Seems to me like Ruger can't win.
If he seeks a compromise, well that's out of self-interest. If he fights the Antis, well, that out of self-interest, too. Looks like the Ruger-bashers want to have it both ways." Sounds like the S&W everyone tries to vilify. BrenLover |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 7:56:46 AM EDT
[#33]
Well, that's how life goes after you become a traitor. Seen any Jane Fonda urinal targets lately? How long has it been since she hopped on that antiaircraft cannon??
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:07:22 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: "Seems to me like Ruger can't win. If he seeks a compromise, well that's out of self-interest. If he fights the Antis, well, that out of self-interest, too. Looks like the Ruger-bashers want to have it both ways." Sounds like the S&W everyone tries to vilify. BrenLover Interesting. Tell us all how S&W has been at the forefront of the RKBA fight since their agreement with the Feds. Please be specific. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:09:40 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Some folks seem to think a person has to always be right, and never seem to remember that people make mistakes. I guess in some folks eyes only a [b]perfect[/b] past is worth honoring. . I think its the MAGNITUDE of the "sin." Specifically, the CONSEQUENCES and fallout of the "sin." If I steal food cuz I lost my job, and my family is starving to death, that's one thing. If I rape and kill three women just for kicks, that's something else entirely. He made a deal with the devil. He should have known better. He made the hi-cap mag deal out of self-interest. He funded defense against gun maker lawsuits out of self-interest. The ruling principle in his life seems to be self-interest, and it seems to me if once again self-interest dictated making ANOITHER deal with the devil, I have NO reason to beleive he wouldn't have done it again. True, self-interest is not always a bad thing. But when self-interest is your foundational principle, that's not so good. Above is merely my opinion. Condolances to his family. They prolly don't deserve the bad name he garnered for dealing with the devil. Sure, we all learn from our mistakes. But Some mistakes there is NO remedy for. What part of "shall not be infringed" didn't he understand??? |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:11:05 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Well, that's how life goes after you become a traitor. Seen any Jane Fonda urinal targets lately? How long has it been since she hopped on that antiaircraft cannon?? The attempt to lump Bill Ruger with the likes of Jane Fonda and/or other heinous individuals shows a lack of perspective and judgement, IMHO. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:17:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: Well, that's how life goes after you become a traitor. Seen any Jane Fonda urinal targets lately? How long has it been since she hopped on that antiaircraft cannon?? The attempt to lump Bill Ruger with the likes of Jane Fonda and/or other heinous individuals shows a lack of perspective and judgement, IMHO. Interesting comparison. Think of it this way - who did more REAL damage to the Constitution, Fonda, or Ruger???? |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:28:26 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: He made the hi-cap mag deal out of self-interest. He funded defense against gun maker lawsuits out of self-interest. So? If he's condemned for the [i]consequences[/i] of the first act, ought he not be applauded for the [i]consequences[/i] of the second? The Ruger-bashers are quick to hate, and slow to voice approval. The ruling principle in his life seems to be self-interest, and it seems to me if once again self-interest dictated making ANOITHER deal with the devil, I have NO reason to beleive he wouldn't have done it again. As you admit, your opinion. Is this opinion based on personal knowledge of Ruger? Or simply second-hand accounts and heresay? True, self-interest is not always a bad thing. But when self-interest is your foundational principle, that's not so good. Above is merely my opinion. [i]Enlightened[/i] self-interest is an ideal and highly moral way to live one's life. Some of us become enlightened later in life than others, unfortunately. Condolances to his family. They prolly don't deserve the bad name he garnered for dealing with the devil. Ditto. And yes, he mistakenly did deal with the Devil. Far cry from [b]being[/b] one as some here would seem to believe. Sure, we all learn from our mistakes. But Some mistakes there is NO remedy for. We all know people who never [i]do[/i] learn from their mistakes. Ruger erred, and [b]never[/b] made a similar mistake for the rest of his life. Quite the opposite, when you add up his subsequent years and millions of $$ in support of RKBA. Wait, I forgot. That was out of self interest. Doesn't count. "The good that men do is oft interred with their bones. The evil that they do lives on after them." Shakespeare, Julius Caesar |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:37:34 AM EDT
[#39]
10rd Mini-14 mags are the rarest mags in the Ruger lineup. Perfectly legal to manufacture today, but they haven't been made in years.
Sure, Ruger redeemed himself. Garandman hit the nail on the head. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:41:47 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: 10rd Mini-14 mags are the rarest mags in the Ruger lineup. Perfectly legal to manufacture today, but they haven't been made in years. Sure, Ruger redeemed himself. Garandman hit the nail on the head. So, all it would take to square accounts with you is for Ruger to mfr 10-rd mags? |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 8:49:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Nope, it'd take quite a bit more than that.
I used that as an example of how he hasn't redeemed himself. He hasn't put the slightest amount of effort in doing so, even when there are no laws prohibiting him to do so. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:00:59 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Nope, it'd take quite a bit more than that. I used that as an example of how he hasn't redeemed himself. He hasn't put the slightest amount of effort in doing so, even when there are no laws prohibiting him to do so. I see. So the $$$ donated to RKBA orgs and the leadership shown in the fight against the Cities' and HUD lawsuits don't count for much, right? If Ruger had caved, as did S&W (you [b]do[/b] condemn S&W, don't you?) we would all rightly have condemned him for that act. [b]However[/b] he [i]didn't[/i] cave, yet gets zilch for credit. I suppose it's all the same to some folks. Some of you Ruger-bashers crack me up. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:16:55 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: Nope, it'd take quite a bit more than that. I used that as an example of how he hasn't redeemed himself. He hasn't put the slightest amount of effort in doing so, even when there are no laws prohibiting him to do so. I see. So the $$$ donated to RKBA orgs and the leadership shown in the fight against the Cities' and HUD lawsuits don't count for much, right? If Ruger had caved, as did S&W (you [b]do[/b] condemn S&W, don't you?) we would all rightly have condemned him for that act. [b]However[/b] he [i]didn't[/i] cave, yet gets zilch for credit. I suppose it's all the same to some folks. Some of you Ruger-bashers crack me up. Did Ruger ever admit that he made a mistake re. the mag limit? If he did, I'll go along with the case of trying to redeem himself. If not, the fight against lawsuits is just personal interest. Either way, I will no condemn him in his afterlife. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: Nope, it'd take quite a bit more than that. I used that as an example of how he hasn't redeemed himself. He hasn't put the slightest amount of effort in doing so, even when there are no laws prohibiting him to do so. I see. So the $$$ donated to RKBA orgs and the leadership shown in the fight against the Cities' and HUD lawsuits don't count for much, right? If Ruger had caved, as did S&W (you [b]do[/b] condemn S&W, don't you?) we would all rightly have condemned him for that act. [b]However[/b] he [i]didn't[/i] cave, yet gets zilch for credit. I suppose it's all the same to some folks. Some of you Ruger-bashers crack me up. It's the Ruger-Apologists that crack me up. One more time for the guys that missed it: Ruger did/does [i]everything[/i] for his own self-interest. If it's good for me, he doesn't care, if it's bad for me, he still doesn't care. So the $$$ donated to RKBA orgs and the leadership shown in the fight against the Cities' and HUD lawsuits don't count for much, right? Right!! It only counts for him! He didn't do it for me. He did it for him! Sure, you might say that he donated more in the end, but I'm not bought that easily. It wouldn't surpise me if the donations to the NRA came out of his Marketing Budget. And, the most important point of it all is this: Whe Ruger stabbed me in the back, he did it not only by his marketing, but also had it made into [b]law[/b]. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:24:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: [ Either way, I will no condemn him in his afterlife. If he is dead, I am truely sorry for his family and friends. This does not take away from the fact that he did some terrible things. Dying doesn't earn you a clean slate. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:25:02 AM EDT
[#46]
I don't know if he specifically admitted error in his first (and only) mistake.
However, I have seen him quoted in the print media as saying that he had come to the conclusion that compromising with the Prohibitionists was futile and counterproductive. (my paraphrasement, but essentially accurate, I think.) Since Ruger had a certain sense of pride, I'm told, that may be all the "apology" we're likely to get [i]in words[/i]. But if you believe that actions speak also, his RKBA leadership and donated $$ says something too. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:29:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Did Ruger ever admit that he made a mistake re. the mag limit? If he did, I'll go along with the case of trying to redeem himself. If not, the fight against lawsuits is just personal interest. Either way, I will no condemn him in his afterlife. yes, i believe he did admit that his actions, which were motivated BY SAVING FIREARMS RIGHTS, backfired and actually helped erode them. fwiw, he suggested a 15-round max. the antis got 10 written into it. it wasn't all mr. ruger's doing. as for the person who said he should have known better, i beg to differ. there was no evidence at this time that there was going to be a huge movement to completely ban guns. consequently, he could not have known that starting with a capacity maximum would have been the first step in incrementally eroding those rights. if his goal had worked, you'd be praising him for the same actions for which you condemn him now. how ironic. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:30:15 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: So the $$$ donated to RKBA orgs and the leadership shown in the fight against the Cities' and HUD lawsuits don't count for much, right? Right!! It only counts for him! He didn't do it for me. He did it for him! Sure, you might say that he donated more in the end, but I'm not bought that easily. It wouldn't surpise me if the donations to the NRA came out of his Marketing Budget. I understand now. He's damned if he do, and damned if he don't. Thanks for showing me how to apply that principle. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:30:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: We all know people who never [i]do[/i] learn from their mistakes. Ruger erred, and [b]never[/b] made a similar mistake for the rest of his life. Quite the opposite, when you add up his subsequent years and millions of $$ in support of RKBA. You are missing my point. COMPLETELY. Step away from the computer, drink a cup of coffee, black, and then continue reading this post. You have NO proof Ruger learned ANYTHING. His mag ban was done out of self-interest. His contribution to fight the gun maker lawsuits was out of self-interest. The ONLY charachter trait we see Ruger exhibiting is SELF INTEREST. Which establishes a PATTERN OF BEHAVIOUR. leading me to beleive that if the opportunity to save his own arse at the expense of the Second Amendment presented itself again, he would act out of ...... SELF INTEREST. Second Amendment be damned. I have NO personal knowledge of the man. But his actions DO give us an indication. The fact that he never committed another "similar mistake for the rest of his life" is more the result of such an opportunity NEVER PRESENTING ITSELF. And my other question is still open - WHO did more REAL damage to the Constitution, Fonda or Ruger??? In my estimation Fonda was just a simpleton, an idiot, a useful fool. I have nothing so kind to say about Ruger. He KNEW what he was doing. But it doesn't really matter anyway. He's receiving his reward, right now. Good or bad. |
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Posted: 7/8/2002 9:38:44 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: The attempt to lump Bill Ruger with the likes of Jane Fonda and/or other heinous individuals shows a lack of perspective and judgement, IMHO. The comparison between Fonda and Ruger is a valid one. Fonda, a well-known American film celebrity and daughter of a man considered by many to be an American film icon, gave legitimacy to a regime engaged in a war of aggression against the South Vietnamese people. Of course Fonda's record of accomplishment probably outweighs her traitorous acts because she has far more fans of her movies and videos than veterans and patriots who condemn her acts. She has also apologized to those who condemned her. Ruger's contributions to the gun owner's community are legendary considering the product line of affordable sporting arms his corporation manufactured. Unfortunately he too gave legitimacy to a cabal of liberals waging a war of aggression on the Second Amendment. Sounds like he also admitted the error of his action when he help fund defenses for arms manufacturers. I suspect Fonda's reputation will improve with time as long as the relationship between the US and Vietnam warms, veterans find forgiveness for her, and a new generation comes along that knows her only from her film work. She can always claim to being young and impetuous when she visited North Vietnam. Ruger's reputation is closely tied to how regulated the American gun owner will become. What good are his 10/22's and Mini 14's if we can't own semi-automatic rifles? Did he allow the camel's nose to move further into the tent when he caved in on mag capacity? I believe Ruger's place in history is the most tenuous. He can never claim to being young and idealistic when he caved in to the enemy. If regulation becomes tighter, the liberals will have won and you know what they say about the winners of wars: They get to write the history. In that case, Bill Ruger becomes a heroic figure while the rest of us are shooting single-shot rifles. |
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