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Posted: 1/4/2012 1:20:58 AM EDT
Man killed with bow and arrow in self defense...launching...

Somerset County District Attorney Jerry Spangler will not charge a man who fatally shot another man with a bow and arrow, saying today that changes in the state's Castle Doctrine factored into his decision.

Mr. Spangler said the unidentified 38-year-old Center City man who confessed to shooting Tony L. Bittinger on Oct. 10 claimed he did so in self-defense.

Mr. Bittinger was found shot through the chest with an arrow near the front steps to the man's house.

Trooper Joseph Drzal said Mr. Bittinger, who had been romantically involved with the man's wife, made several threatening phone calls to the man before driving up to his home to confront him. There, he threatened the man with a heavy wooden club.

The man told him to leave repeatedly. When Mr. Bittinger attempted to come up the stairs, the man shot him in the chest with an arrow. He died before first responders arrived.

_______________________________________________

Well I'm glad I finally settled that debate once and for all.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:30:19 AM EDT
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.



That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:30:52 AM EDT
Wonder why the deceased was threatening the husband of the wife he was boinking?

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:31:57 AM EDT
How much energy do those things have, generally speaking, compared to handgun calibers?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:38:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By P95Shooter:
How much energy do those things have, generally speaking, compared to handgun calibers?

Does it matter when razor blades are flying? You could cause a serious injury by dropping the thing on your foot.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:40:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 1:42:32 AM EDT by Towely]
Originally Posted By P95Shooter:
How much energy do those things have, generally speaking, compared to handgun calibers?


I would say a higher performance bow shooting a higher grain arrow is probably in the 30-35 foot pounds range(I could be wildly inaccurate in my estimate)...

A LOT lower than a bullet but an arrow will generally penetrate better than a bullet as they don't expand and mushroom(unless you hit a shoulder bone or really hit a rib square). Arrows kill by slicing through arteries and causing massive hemorrhaging/blood loss.

edit: Those numbers are high performance deer hunting setups. If you're going after something really big like a cape buffalo you're probably going to want to double that by going with a much higher grain arrow.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:05:38 AM EDT
So... Fixed or mechanical?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:29:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxo6A0TVgT-_89gG_pXw8CqMvslo1gsTYejfgfnZx_vkOL52GP

That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.


.45 vs Simmons shark.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:36:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 2:37:12 AM EDT by jeffman1911]
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:46:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 2:47:20 AM EDT by delemorte]
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxo6A0TVgT-_89gG_pXw8CqMvslo1gsTYejfgfnZx_vkOL52GP

That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.


I am sceptical of that statement and would love to see some numbers to back it up. I know a arrow will penetrate very deaply because of the mass of the arrow it self but with out exspansion, size of the wound leaves me suspect. I may be totaly off base here as i am no bow hunter or balistics expert.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:50:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.


You need to read the Box O' Truth.

Box O' Truth on Birdshot
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:55:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By delemorte:
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxo6A0TVgT-_89gG_pXw8CqMvslo1gsTYejfgfnZx_vkOL52GP

That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.


I am sceptical of that statement and would love to see some numbers to back it up. I know a arrow will penetrate very deaply because of the mass of the arrow it self but with out exspansion, size of the wound leaves me suspect. I may be totaly off base here as i am no bow hunter or balistics expert.


Go to any archery forum and you will see pics of dozens, if not hundreds of through-and-through shots with exit wounds you could put your fist in. Inside of 25 yards, I would probably rather get shot with a .45.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:03:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By delemorte:
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxo6A0TVgT-_89gG_pXw8CqMvslo1gsTYejfgfnZx_vkOL52GP

That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.


I am sceptical of that statement and would love to see some numbers to back it up. I know a arrow will penetrate very deaply because of the mass of the arrow it self but with out exspansion, size of the wound leaves me suspect. I may be totaly off base here as i am no bow hunter or balistics expert.

I don't doubt it. A broadhead is already expanded, so to speak, and the wound damage is greater
than a pistol bullet. As stated above, a 1.25" wound channel is much more than a .45 could even
hope to accomplish. The damage that counts is what the bullet, arrow, ice pick, ect. can cut or puncture.
The broadhead would excell in that. Add to that the bullet can push a vessel out of the way where the
arrow will slice it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:08:23 AM EDT
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:08:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 3:11:00 AM EDT by RaisedByWolves]

Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.

Dumb posts are dumb.

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.

Broadheads will go through bone nicely.


IIRC some of mine are 400+ grains.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:18:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.


And, we're off!!



Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:18:32 AM EDT
big game I shoot with my bow and arrow die much quicker (bleed out) than any rifle caliber. 40 yards or less never had one not go all the way through. best part is most of the time they don't even know they 'd been shot. its like turning on a faucet. with that being said however, that would be my last choice for HD. too hard to carry around, load and complete follow up.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:19:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 3:19:55 AM EDT by Makarov]
I'll bet that cheating whore feels like Maid Marian One man killed for her and another man died for her I hope that pussy was worth it
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:24:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 3:25:51 AM EDT by Towely]
Originally Posted By RaisedByWolves:

Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.

Dumb posts are dumb.

Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.

Broadheads will go through bone nicely.


IIRC some of mine are 400+ grains.



Depends on the setup. A lot of guys shoot lower grain arrows with 70# draw bows that have very aggressive cams. The PSE Omen can shoot 370fps with a heavy draw and low grain arrow. A lot of guys hunting smaller game will go with low grain setups to get faster speeds. Faster speeds mean less drop. Some guys are using the same aiming pin from 10 yards out to 30-40 yards(some also claim this lessens the chance of a deer "ducking" your arrow, not sure I buy into that theory though).

Those low grain arrows will have a bad day if they hit solid, big bone. They CAN go through on small game but if you shoot a moose in the shoulder with a 150 grain arrow you probably aren't going to kill it.

A good shot, even out of a 50-60# bow with lower grain heads will easily cut through a deer and out the other side. Not always, but they routinely do.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:26:12 AM EDT
Bows, and large wooden clubs.. this is how the Dems want the world to be..

His next step should be to send his wife packing, if not, he's an idiot.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:47:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.


With my setup (bow, arrow choice, draw weight/length) my arrows generate something like 88ftlbs of KE.

IIRC it's generally accepted that you need 66ft/lbs to harvest cape buffalo.


I don't think you'd have a problem getting a through shot on a human.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:48:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By aplehr:
Originally Posted By delemorte:
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Yep, those typically leave much larger and nastier wounds than the greatest .45 ACP rounds could ever hope to achieve. I hope I don't go out via a 1.25" broadhead piercing my body.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxo6A0TVgT-_89gG_pXw8CqMvslo1gsTYejfgfnZx_vkOL52GP

That just doesn't look like a very pleasant way to die.


I am sceptical of that statement and would love to see some numbers to back it up. I know a arrow will penetrate very deaply because of the mass of the arrow it self but with out exspansion, size of the wound leaves me suspect. I may be totaly off base here as i am no bow hunter or balistics expert.


Go to any archery forum and you will see pics of dozens, if not hundreds of through-and-through shots with exit wounds you could put your fist in. Inside of 25 yards, I would probably rather get shot with a .45.


sounds pretty nasty then
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:50:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chief20879:
Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.


And, we're off!!





I think some of you have your humor meter turned way down because you just got trolled.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:51:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.


With my setup (bow, arrow choice, draw weight/length) my arrows generate something like 88ftlbs of KE.

IIRC it's generally accepted that you need 66ft/lbs to harvest cape buffalo.


I don't think you'd have a problem getting a through shot on a human.


88?

What's your setup?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:52:22 AM EDT
I used to cheat, but then I took an arrow to the chest.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:53:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.



bird shot is for birds.....

big SKIN WOUND is what you get from bird shot, no penetration, lots of blood...and one pissed off bad guy..
remember Chaney shot a lawyer with bird shot..hell, I have 3 or 4 just inder the skin on my right arm from an IDIOT hunting partner 20' away shooting at a quail on a dove hunthe was a fucking moran

BUCK SHOT of one flavor or another for 2 or 4 legged critters over 50lbs..
CHEF

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:59:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aptrgangr:

Originally Posted By P95Shooter:
How much energy do those things have, generally speaking, compared to handgun calibers?

Does it matter when razor blades are flying? You could cause a serious injury by dropping the thing on your foot.


Ever get a decent cut with something razor sharp? Bleeds a lot, and for a long time. If something is duller it can crush the smaller vessels, and they tend not to bleed so much. Getting shot with one of those, I can imagine bleeding out pretty quickly with even first responders not able to do much.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:04:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.


With my setup (bow, arrow choice, draw weight/length) my arrows generate something like 88ftlbs of KE.

IIRC it's generally accepted that you need 66ft/lbs to harvest cape buffalo.


I don't think you'd have a problem getting a through shot on a human.


88?

What's your setup?


400 grns at 300 fps = 80 ft lbs. That would be a pretty average setup. I shoot a longbow, and I'm around 75.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:07:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By aplehr:
Originally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.


With my setup (bow, arrow choice, draw weight/length) my arrows generate something like 88ftlbs of KE.

IIRC it's generally accepted that you need 66ft/lbs to harvest cape buffalo.


I don't think you'd have a problem getting a through shot on a human.


88?

What's your setup?


400 grns at 300 fps = 80 ft lbs. That would be a pretty average setup. I shoot a longbow, and I'm around 75.


Are you saying you're getting a longbow to shoot 300fps with 400 grain arrows?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:12:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 4:14:16 AM EDT by aplehr]
Originally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By aplehr:
Originally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By jmzd4:
Seeing that most modern bows can shoot at over 300 feet/sec, and that, as stated above on most archery forums, most can go through a deer or pig, I would think that a broad head would go through a person as well.


With my setup (bow, arrow choice, draw weight/length) my arrows generate something like 88ftlbs of KE.

IIRC it's generally accepted that you need 66ft/lbs to harvest cape buffalo.


I don't think you'd have a problem getting a through shot on a human.


88?

What's your setup?


400 grns at 300 fps = 80 ft lbs. That would be a pretty average setup. I shoot a longbow, and I'm around 75.


Are you saying you're getting a longbow to shoot 300fps with 400 grain arrows?


No, I'm saying what you can achieve with just an average - compound/below parallel - modern bow. I can get 72-75 with 625 grn arrows, depending on the weather.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:20:26 AM EDT
Having killed many deer with rifles and broadheads. My preference would be to get shot with a .45 instead of a Muzzy 4 blade.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:23:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jeffman1911:
IBTP.

ETA: Don't know about broad / arrows but imho
12ga bird or light shot. Devastate target, not much worry about penetrating a wall.

Depends on your household. JHP .40 or .45 tough to beat also.

*facepalm*
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:25:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By supdura:
I used to cheat, but then I took an arrow to the chest.



Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:27:55 AM EDT
Given a choice of one or the other I would hand you my Glock 21 loaded with SXT and BEG you to shoot me with it before I let you shoot me with one of my 30" cedars tipped by a snuffer broadhead.

I've shot lots of animals with various firearms and loads of deer with the snuffer broadheads. Temporary stretch cavity and shock be damned,those broadheads cut a hole through a deer you can literally read a book through. As stated above I imagine the broadhead is LESS painful from what I've observed,deer shot fatally with them often go back to feeding after the initial reaction which is like they have been bee stung. BUT......your ass is going to die.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:31:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CarnageRush:
So... Fixed or mechanical?


Probably fixed, but I'll bet he didn't use a release.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:32:36 AM EDT
I nearly had to shoot man with a bow in 2002. Closest I have ever come to being forced to take another mans life.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:33:19 AM EDT
Broadhead arrow kills things fast.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:34:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 4:40:22 AM EDT by bankfraudguy]
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:43:13 AM EDT
My bow is too long for me to shoot it standing up while inside.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:45:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 4:47:30 AM EDT by Leftover_Salmon]
Double
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:46:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 4:47:08 AM EDT by Leftover_Salmon]
Don't you all see its obvious, bows are tools of destruction and a bow took another mans life. Ban bows!!!
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:48:09 AM EDT
how shitty would that be to get shot with a broad head. not to mention haveing to listen to the man dieing at the bottom of the stairs with a fucking arrow in his chest. good shoot I guess pussy will make men do crazy things
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:48:11 AM EDT
Good twang?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:53:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kaneroy:
pussy will make men do crazy things


No truer words have ever been spoken.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:53:59 AM EDT
getting shot by a broadhead is pretty high on the shitty ways to die list.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:54:09 AM EDT
OUCH!! Do you think he got the point

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:54:48 AM EDT
Hilarious factor also goes up by 10x if it was not a compound bow,
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:55:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By P95Shooter:
How much energy do those things have, generally speaking, compared to handgun calibers?

This is related to the "Handguns are poor manstoppers" thread.

Handgun projectile energy isn't enough to make a difference. They work in the same way as a broad head. Bleeding and/or cutting vital nerves. It's not magic.

Rifles possess enough energy to create a hydrostatic wound channel large enough to over extend the elasticity of internal organs and compress nerves, etc that it greatly increases the stopping power.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:56:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 5:00:16 AM EDT
Bow have been killing people for a long time. I would not put being shot with a broad head on the things to do list. A good COM hit is going to bleed out a 100-200lb person pretty quick.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 5:04:21 AM EDT
arrows (broadheads) kill by hemmoragic blood loss. Bullets kill by shock.

I Imagine getting a pass through with a broadhead would be quite simple. Especially a front on chest shot at 10 feet.

Aside from the wrenching pain of slivered bones and organs, now imagine your lungs filling with your own blood. You
essentially die by drowning in your own blood. Assuming the heart wasnt cut in two, or the aorta wasnt severed..

HAS to be a shitty way to go.

My friend hit a doe at 10 feet this year with a muzzy 4 blade - broadside. Obviously a complete pass through. She stood there for 5 seconds pumping blood out both sides like a "Monty Python" movie as he says. She trotted 15 feet thren fell over stone dead.
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