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Posted: 5/19/2005 6:36:40 AM EDT
Didn't want to hijack this thread...


So, anyway, what caliber is best for police patrol carbines?

Why would you want a pistol caliber over a 5.56?

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:40:17 AM EDT
Rural areas could get away with having larger calibers. Not an issue of "wanting". 5.56 is pretty much ideal for most agencies in terms of cost, effectiveness, training, platform choices, etc.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:44:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Rural areas could get away with having larger calibers. Not an issue of "wanting". 5.56 is pretty much ideal for most agencies in terms of cost, effectiveness, training, platform choices, etc.




5.56 practice ammo is cheaper than .40 and .45, not much more than good 9mm.

'duty' ammo is comparable in price to any hi-quality pistol ammo, has much better performance on many levels.

5.56 AR's are generally more reliable, easier to repair, easier to find mags for, easier to procure, have more options....

Only downside is the distance traveled by stray bullets, which, in a way, I don't see as being bad.

ALL stray bullets have to come down SOMEWHERE.

Whether that happens 400 yards away or 1200 doesn't really make much difference, really, in terms of potential for bystander hits...or does it?

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:45:43 AM EDT
.458 SOCOM
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:47:13 AM EDT
What it really boils down to is how urban Jackson is. Most of the shoot-outs around here take place in neighborhoods and on busy streets. I believe the main concern is that rifle rounds would travel further and do more damage (to bystanders) than pistol rounds.

I disagree, actually. I think with the proper training of select officers, AR15's would be the way to go. They could even use TAP ammo to ease their concerns.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:48:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 6:50:21 AM EDT by Dolomite]
.223 - It's all the rage right now.

Sadly, all it will take is some kid getting picked off of his big wheel a mile or two away from some bank robbery shoot out, and every major police agancy in the country will have the 870's loaded with #4 buck back in their cars before the week is out.

Society doesn't want the cops to have the best equipment/training for the job they need - they just want to feel "safe" (at reasonable prices).
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:49:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 6:55:14 AM EDT by skid2964]
For the average patrol officer these get my vote .....

As for caliber ..... I say 223 or 308 are fine ... if they worry about overpenetration, use a super fangible bullet (varmint round) ....



www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm
This one take AR mags..

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:50:39 AM EDT
Apparently, my uncle said this to two officers holding shotguns that hadn't fired a shot:

"Get out of my way if you aren't gonna use those."

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:50:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
For the average patrol officer these get my vote .....

As for caliber ..... I say 223 or 308 are fine ... if they worry about overpenetration, use a super fangible bullet (varmint round) ....

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7600.jpg

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615.jpg



IIRC, 15 years ago there was a 40-grain round for the 5.56 (loaded by federal, IIRC) that was all the rage, until someone figured out that they didn't do well against fat guys, guys with their hands in front of them, car doors, etc......
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:52:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Only downside is the distance traveled by stray bullets, which, in a way, I don't see as being bad.

ALL stray bullets have to come down SOMEWHERE.

Whether that happens 400 yards away or 1200 doesn't really make much difference, really, in terms of potential for bystander hits...or does it?



A stray .22 LR will travel 1 1/4 miles. Beyond that, the differences a stray 9 mm or other pistol round will go as compared to a stray 5.56 round will go is unimportant and shouldn't be part of the final reasons why one is adopted over the other. They both go " too " far.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:55:07 AM EDT
Depends on Dept.

Those cross-firin' Compton guys? - frangible .22

Cypher214's nut-shootin' Uncle? Give that guy a .308 to punch through cover.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:55:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Apparently, my uncle said this to two officers holding shotguns that hadn't fired a shot:

"Get out of my way if you aren't gonna use those."




My HD shotgun has a modified choke, instead of IC.

At 50 yards, buckshot patterns are still tight enough to reasonably expect half the pellets to strike a torso. It has racked up 2 kills at 50-70 yards recently on farm-type varmints with hornady lo-recoil 00 buck..

Slugs seem to do OK out of it - minute of torso at 100 yards.

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:56:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Only downside is the distance traveled by stray bullets, which, in a way, I don't see as being bad.

ALL stray bullets have to come down SOMEWHERE.

Whether that happens 400 yards away or 1200 doesn't really make much difference, really, in terms of potential for bystander hits...or does it?



A stray .22 LR will travel 1 1/4 miles. Beyond that, the differences a stray 9 mm or other pistol round will go as compared to a stray 5.56 round will go is unimportant and shouldn't be part of the final reasons why one is adopted over the other. They both go " too " far.



That's basically what I meant - though I probably coulda phrased it better.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:58:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Apparently, my uncle said this to two officers holding shotguns that hadn't fired a shot:

"Get out of my way if you aren't gonna use those."




My HD shotgun has a modified choke, instead of IC.

At 50 yards, buckshot patterns are still tight enough to reasonably expect half the pellets to strike a torso. It has racked up 2 kills at 50-70 yards recently on farm-type varmints with hornady lo-recoil 00 buck..

Slugs seem to do OK out of it - minute of torso at 100 yards.




With buckshot, which I'm sure they had, I would have definitely been trying to put some lead on target at 60 yds and I really don't understand why the officer's didn't fire.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 6:58:30 AM EDT
I liked the 5.56. More effective than pistol calibers on cars and body armor. Basically the same overpenetration issues as pistol calibers indoors. And a rifle caliber will enable you to engage targets beyond 100 yards.

I carried a Colt Carbine AR-15, with a 4x scope, and a 6 pack mag holder, in my patrol car.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:01:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By skid2964:
For the average patrol officer these get my vote .....

As for caliber ..... I say 223 or 308 are fine ... if they worry about overpenetration, use a super fangible bullet (varmint round) ....

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7600.jpg

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615.jpg



IIRC, 15 years ago there was a 40-grain round for the 5.56 (loaded by federal, IIRC) that was all the rage, until someone figured out that they didn't do well against fat guys, guys with their hands in front of them, car doors, etc......



There was a police shoot out in Alexandria LA, 2/2003, 2 officers were killed. The SOBER BG took multiple 12 GA slug, .40 S+W and .223 hits, something like 30+ before he stopped fighting the .223 rounds were some of those ver light rounds, and were totally ineffecitve as causing debilitating injuries.

odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16537 odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16536
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:21:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By skid2964:
For the average patrol officer these get my vote .....

As for caliber ..... I say 223 or 308 are fine ... if they worry about overpenetration, use a super fangible bullet (varmint round) ....

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7600.jpg

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7600.htm

www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

www.remingtonle.com/images/rifles/m7615.jpg



IIRC, 15 years ago there was a 40-grain round for the 5.56 (loaded by federal, IIRC) that was all the rage, until someone figured out that they didn't do well against fat guys, guys with their hands in front of them, car doors, etc......



There was a police shoot out in Alexandria LA, 2/2003, 2 officers were killed. The SOBER BG took multiple 12 GA slug, .40 S+W and .223 hits, something like 30+ before he stopped fighting the .223 rounds were some of those ver light rounds, and were totally ineffecitve as causing debilitating injuries.

odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16537 odmp.org/officer.php?oid=16536



IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.


30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:35:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have no idea about the specs on the Federal 40 grainer. The linked page has some 40 grain TAP ammo. I don't think it would be effective at much more than mildly irritating a determined person.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:38:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




Not when your shooting at an apple ....
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:39:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have no idea about the specs on the Federal 40 grainer. The linked page has some 40 grain TAP ammo. I don't think it would be effective at much more than mildly irritating a determined person.



Like light, fast, frangible bullets in any other rifle, if the 40-grain load had an unobstructed path to the upper chest, it would probably be 'lights out'.

It's that word 'unobstructed' that makes light bullets so 'iffy'.......
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:01:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
It's that word 'unobstructed' that makes light bullets so 'iffy'.......



You mean un-obstructed in terms of light clothing? no body armor? or are you talking about going through brush or semi hard cover?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:08:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Apparently, my uncle said this to two officers holding shotguns that hadn't fired a shot:

"Get out of my way if you aren't gonna use those."




My HD shotgun has a modified choke, instead of IC.

At 50 yards, buckshot patterns are still tight enough to reasonably expect half the pellets to strike a torso. It has racked up 2 kills at 50-70 yards recently on farm-type varmints with hornady lo-recoil 00 buck..

Slugs seem to do OK out of it - minute of torso at 100 yards.



Half the pellets ona target means half are mises and liabilities. Anything past 20 yards, stick with slugs. Do we know what the officers had for ammo in the shotties?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:08:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have no idea about the specs on the Federal 40 grainer. The linked page has some 40 grain TAP ammo. I don't think it would be effective at much more than mildly irritating a determined person.



Like light, fast, frangible bullets in any other rifle, if the 40-grain load had an unobstructed path to the upper chest, it would probably be 'lights out'.

It's that word 'unobstructed' that makes light bullets so 'iffy'.......



Like ribs, sternum, cartilage(sp)?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:11:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
For the average patrol officer these get my vote .....



I would think that would amount to heresy by being posted here at AR15.com
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:15:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




Not when your shooting at an apple ....





ben
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:17:59 AM EDT
.223 what else? would you expect from here
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:19:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have no idea about the specs on the Federal 40 grainer. The linked page has some 40 grain TAP ammo. I don't think it would be effective at much more than mildly irritating a determined person.



Like light, fast, frangible bullets in any other rifle, if the 40-grain load had an unobstructed path to the upper chest, it would probably be 'lights out'.

It's that word 'unobstructed' that makes light bullets so 'iffy'.......



Like ribs, sternum, cartilage(sp)?




Originally Posted By skid2964:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
It's that word 'unobstructed' that makes light bullets so 'iffy'.......



You mean un-obstructed in terms of light clothing? no body armor? or are you talking about going through brush or semi hard cover?



By unobstructed, I mean:

bullet directly strikes the center of the sternum of a lightly-built non-drugged person at a 90-degree angle. It has to penetrate a half-inch of skin and muscle, a soft quarter-inch of bone, then it can fly apart disrupting the heart, lungs, tons of nerves, and so on.

Put another way, that would be a shot much akin to what we take on varmints and deer with our deer rifles - even the lighter-caliber ones.

But when you add a layer of fat, a shirt, a jacket, extremely heavy muscle, an arm, a wrist, a windshield, and so on, suddenly, you have a different target entirely.

THAT is why the typical 'it kills deer stone dead' arguement - that is used so often - doesn't work.

(JMHO...)

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:21:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Apparently, my uncle said this to two officers holding shotguns that hadn't fired a shot:

"Get out of my way if you aren't gonna use those."




My HD shotgun has a modified choke, instead of IC.

At 50 yards, buckshot patterns are still tight enough to reasonably expect half the pellets to strike a torso. It has racked up 2 kills at 50-70 yards recently on farm-type varmints with hornady lo-recoil 00 buck..

Slugs seem to do OK out of it - minute of torso at 100 yards.



Half the pellets ona target means half are mises and liabilities. Anything past 20 yards, stick with slugs. Do we know what the officers had for ammo in the shotties?



No, but I assume (yeah, I know...) that the BG was standing in front of a building or other relatively firm backstop that wouldh have stopped the rest of the buckshot.

If he was standing out in the open, of course, that changes things.

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:30:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 8:37:29 AM EDT by skid2964]
Another argument FOR the 223 or 308 rifle .... is that if you have 10 cops with 9mm's pistols, you are more likely to have missed shots zinging off into the neighborhood. One well placed shot from a rifle, even if it overpenetrates ... is usually all that is needed. A rifle, especially with optics .. should give the average patrol officer the confidence needed to make that shot.

Result: fewer stray bullets ...
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:37:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
Another argument FOR the 223 or 308 rifle .... is that if you have 10 cops with 9mm's pistols, you are more likely to have missed shots zinging off into the neighborhood. One well placed shot from a rifle, even if it overpenetrates ... is usually all that is needed. A rifle, especially with optics .. should give the average patrol officer the confidence needed to make that shot.



Good point.

In the shooting that spawned this thread, how many missed shots were took?

30, IIRC....

Not saying the weren't justified in trying to stop the guy, by no means, but a rifle - even with a miss or 2 - would have been much more efficient.

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:43:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By skid2964:
A rifle, especially with optics .. should give the average patrol officer the confidence needed to make that shot.

Result: fewer stray bullets ...



Most patrol rifles aren't going to have optics, partially ebcause they'd be takinga banging wayyy more than the officer would be going to the range to confirm the optical zero. Plus, most LEO rifle shots take place well under 100 yards, so not much need for optics.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:04:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By skid2964:
A rifle, especially with optics .. should give the average patrol officer the confidence needed to make that shot.

Result: fewer stray bullets ...



Most patrol rifles aren't going to have optics, partially ebcause they'd be takinga banging wayyy more than the officer would be going to the range to confirm the optical zero. Plus, most LEO rifle shots take place well under 100 yards, so not much need for optics.



I agree ... Most will have ghost ring sights ....
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:35:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

IIRC, Masaad Ayoob was one of the biggest fans of the federtal 40-grain load, years ago. Not sure where he stands now.

30+ hits with ANYTHING is a lot!




www.bushmaster.com/le/tests/hornady_tactical_ammunition.htm

I have no idea about the specs on the Federal 40 grainer. The linked page has some 40 grain TAP ammo. I don't think it would be effective at much more than mildly irritating a determined person.



+1.

Bart: I better go check out this Mongo character.
[Bart reaches for his gun]
Jim: Oh no, don't do that.
Bart: Why not?
Jim: If you shoot him, you'll just make him mad.
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