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Posted: 5/5/2001 7:53:07 AM EDT
Anybody else think Beretta 92's are fragile? I have one, with a few hundred rounds through it and i've already retired it. Never had any problems but I'm always reading about cracked slides, cracked firing pins, broken locking lugs. Whats the deal whit these? Is the design a lemon or what? Ive read that the famous SEAL eating a slide story was a metal problem and was corrected, but Why would Berreta intoduce the Bridgeder moedl with the beffy slide? Makes me wonder
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:56:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:58:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:17:22 AM EDT
Heres the deal- Beretta's are NOT fragile. The ONLY reason that the seal's ate a slide is because they insisted on using ammunition that was way too hot for the gun, in other words the same stuff used in their MP5's +p+ ammo. Beretta's were not made to take that, infact many 9mm pistols arent either. The US Military would not have issued the standard beretta 92fs (M9) to their troops if the gun wasnt a solid, well built, and very reliable design. I have put 2000+ rounds of Federal 115gr. 9mm Luger through it, and have not had ANY problems at all. My friends Glock 17 and USP in 9mm have both jammed, and they clean theirs up as much as I do mine, but I only cleaned it after 1500 rounds. 1500 rounds, NO jams NO feed malfunctions, and I was putting all of the shots through a 2 1/2 inch circle at about 20 yards. I did lube it occasionally to keep it smooth, but thats it. And after 1500 rounds, the gun really wasnt that dirty...about as dirty as my friends Glock 17 after 350 rounds. basically, I would put my life on this gun, adn no other. Many of my friends have bought this gun now after seeing mine, and NONE of them have had any problems at all. Also, the brigadeir model was designed with SWAT and INS in mind, because they may prefer to use +p ammo. I think the "border marshall" was the one that sparked the 92g, and it became a production pistol shortly there after. As for cracked firing pins...havent heard of it at all, broken locking lugs, nope. This gun is a rock. Besides, since its a US military gun, you can go to almost any gun and pick up a brand new M9 field repair kit, which comes with a whole slew of things...recoil guide rod, recoil spring, firing pin, etc. And all of which are very simple to replace. Un-retire that gun, you dont know what youre missing. Just treat the gun like it was made to be treated, with plain old 9mm. Of course, keep a mag-filled with some hot JHP if you want for home defense...the slide only hit the seal in the face after like 8000 rounds of +P+ ammo...which the manual says specifically NOT to use...
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:19:54 AM EDT
I have seen actual pictures of a Beretta 92 slide that had KB'd. The guy who was showing them off said they were from an Army range. The pistol in the pictures had wooden grips, so the guy was totally BSing because the M9 has plastic ones, and the gun itself was obviously somebody's personal weapon. That proves you can blow the slide on a 92, but how did he manage to do it? Probably junk reloads which is what most of these stories turn out to be. The SEALs shot ammo that was not designed for pistols. It was SMG ammo (for the MP5), or proof loads, depending on who's telling the story. Any gun is probably going to have problems after a few thousand rounds of proof loads. These guys shot ALOT. These have been the only documented failures of slides in the military. The Army recalled all slides after 1000rds and replaced them with an improved one that wouldn't fly back into your face if it blew, just in case. The Army does that stuff all the time with all sorts of things, as it's generally better to solve a non-existant problem, than ignore a potentially existing one. I have personnaly seen two 92s with cracked locking blocks. Both had an ear sheared off. Both were tied up so bad that there was no way it would come apart and cause an injury. This is a real life failure, but I have no idea what the failure rate is overall. Having seen two though it makes me wonder. My old roomate had the exact failure on his Taurus PT-99. He sent it back to Taurus and they fixed it, and a couple other little things and had it back to him in 15 days. That included the FedEx time both ways. The lifetime warranty works. The M9 was the ONLY nib gun ever isued to me in the Army. I liked it because it was MINE! No one else, except some factory guy had gotten to use it. Of course it lived with me through all sorts of crap, and it shot great! It's a big gun, and I prefer Sigs, but I would not hesitate to shoot the holy crap out of a 92 with no fear of failure. I've seen broken M1911s, revolvers, M-1As, and really every other gun. I don't think the 92 is any worse, or all the cops would be complaining about them. They abuse all their stuff, guns, cars, radios, etc. There's really no point in retiring your gun. Then it's just as good as broken because you're not using it. I'd just shoot it. If it breaks, then retire it, or just fix it and shoot it somemore. Manufactuers will introduce a product for only one reason, money. Either the Brigadier slide is easier and cheaper to machine, or the precieved stronger slide, or just the look of strength will result in sales. If the 92 was defective, they would no longer make it because they would be losing money through lost sales or lawsuits. I worry not about the 92. Ross
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:21:17 AM EDT
I've now put about 5,000 rounds through my 92FS. Everyting from reloads to Cor-Bon's and it has held up just fine. Slide retention was a problem that was fixed in the FS model with changes to the locking block. Never heard of a cracked slide. I have heard about cracked firing pins in the Tomcat but not the 92 series. The slide on the Brigadier has more to do with balance and recoil reduction than strength. Also, I believe the SEAL story involved the use of hundreds if not a 1,000+ proof loads before it broke. Try shooting hundreds of proof loads in any gun and see how well it stands up. No design can overcome Operator error/intelligence. I would not give mine up but if you lost confidence in it - then you did the right thing. I personally would not own any of the Glock 40's because of the KB's in the unsupported barrel.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 10:56:01 AM EDT
The SEAL's were indeed using very hot loads, and LOTS of them. Beretta will warrantee their 92's for shooting REASONABLE amounts of +P ammo through them, more than most of us can afford. Shoot factory standard-pressure ball through it for practice and shoot the Cor-bon stuff only occasionally, and it will last you forever. The Brigadier was introduced at the request of the INS to increase the number of +P and +P+ loads you could safely put through it, as well as beef the slide up to shoot the .40. It was not introduced to correct any design flaws in the 92 itself. ANY gun will break if you abuse it. Even an MP5 will fail if you feed it a steady diet of thousands of rounds of +P+ ammunition. HK isn't selling .40 and 10mm MP5's in the US anymore because they were breaking due to the high pressure of the rounds. Your Beretta is a great gun, don't lose confidence in it because of stories you hear. Treat it well and it will take care of you. IMHO, the 92 is one of the better 9mm handguns out there. I carried a 92G for years, and would do so again if my duty ammo was still Federal 9BPLE. And just FYI, the 92G came long before the Border Marshal. It was designed for the French police, who did not want a safety, just a decocker. The G comes from "Gendarmerie", the French word for police. It used to be a LEO-only gun for liability reasons, but Beretta incorporated the decock-only feature into later guns due to large numbers of requests from civilian shooters who didn't want a safety that could get left on or knocked on by accident.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:04:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 11:05:17 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
Funny how I used to hear the same sh*t. The only thing I know for sure is that some f*cks are trying to sue Beretta claiming that the chamber loaded indicator wasn't sufficient enough and the gun was defective. Defective because you could fire without a mag inserted. Their teenage son was playing at a friends house with a Beretta and he got killed. Must be that defect which allows the gun to be fired without a mag. Kid should have utilized the chamber loaded indicator. Hell, all my handguns are defective.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:28:02 AM EDT
The 92 is quite safe if shooting standard ammo and not +p+. The 92FS has a stop to keep the slide from coming off the back if the slide breaks and has a slightly beefier slide than the 92F and early M9's. I've put at least 3000 rds thru my issue M9 without any problems other than the occasional FTF and misfires/squibs.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:56:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:31:03 PM EDT
The SEALs were using proof loads which were producing 70,000psi. That's double the normal 35,000psi of standard 9mm. Even +p+ only generate 40,000 - 42,000psi. The good thing about this incident is that now the 92/96 has a slide stop and a beefier slide. The locking block is not an issue anymore any they are cheaper to replace than a whole barrel.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:32:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 12:32:09 PM EDT by Marksman14]
Wilson, that post brought a tear to my eye beautiful [beer]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 1:07:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 1:06:28 PM EDT by Imbroglio]
Beretta has resdesigned the locking block to eliminate the premature cracking problem by radiusing the the areas that meet the lugs. [url]beretta.squawk.com/[/url] "Beretta USA redesigned the 92-series locking block in the mid 1990's, increasing its lifespan by changing both the material used for the part and the basic structural design. The newer style locking block has an expected service life of 17,000 to 22,000 rounds of NATO-spec (+p+) 9mm ammunition. Many shooters have seen these new blocks last well over 50,000 rounds of standard-pressure ammunition." [img]beretta.squawk.com/images/newblock.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 2:41:43 PM EDT
ok conn YANKEE you probably believe that some one can disable your beretta while your holding them at gunpoint too.its amazing how many people will believe anything because they were told so in a convincing maner.i have had my 92 for several years and thousands of rounds threw her with absolutly no problems or cracks. off the subject but this dweeb at a gun store told me i couldnt mail a gun threw the mail to ruger for servicing.he said he could do that for me for a minimal charge.what an ass ,i sent my ruger mk11 to arizona for maintanence .i first called them they said mail it to the insured .which i did and got it back 5 weeks later repaired.gunstores are the worst bullshit shovelers in the world.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 3:22:48 PM EDT
Though I've never owned a Beretta I've had a Taurus PT-99 now for 14 years, fired thousands of rounds through it, use it monthly in IDPA shoots and no failures yet. Not bad for a cheap Brazilian rip-off.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 4:08:26 PM EDT
The Beretta 92-96FS's are the best pistols made today. I have both and would trust my life and that of my familys on either!
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:01:56 PM EDT
In case anyone wants a very well price one I got one for sale on the Firearms for sale Forum of this board. Thanks and sorry about the shameless plug :)
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:10:02 PM EDT
The sights suck, cant change the front or get it dovetailed, if you get the sights with the red dot, you will leave it in the safe come shooting day. My friend just bought one and it NEEDED trigger work, after the trigger work he set out to find a solution to the sight problem, has to send it to Beretta, it`s there now. Last weekend our friend Resistor was having probs with his too. Jamming every other shot.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:21:05 PM EDT
Hmmm, sights suck and so does the trigger? Sounds more like a shooter problem then a Beretta problem! :)
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:22:36 PM EDT
Don't Quote me on this...BUT... From what I understand, the orignal 92's imported into the country from Italy (mid-80's) were called the " 92F " Italy not being able to keep up with demand, allowed US manufacture in Maryland to supply the guns. Apparently the metallurgy differed from the original import guns and there WERE slide failures only with the US made 92F model. The Italian made 92F had no slide failures. The newer 92FS model was an improved version, made to address the slide faiure prone model 92F made in the US... I could be wrong about this, but I sorta remember reading this somewhere... Just something to think about...[:)]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:29:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ConnYankee: Anybody else think Beretta 92's are fragile? I have one, with a few hundred rounds through it and i've already retired it.
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Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:25:44 PM EDT
A big pile of BS!
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:26:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:35:44 PM EDT
I thought the slide issue was put to death myself, then the bridgeder? comes out with the extra beefy slide. Why'd they redesign it if there was nothing wrong? I also read a post on an other gun related message board from a certerfied beretta armourer, he said you if you dry fire it the firing pin eventually breaks. Don't get me wrong, i think the guns very accuarte for a service pistol. Untra reliable,mine never jammed even with USA mags[:)] now that reliable. The fact they redesigned the slide bothers me.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:36:51 PM EDT
As stated above, the slide was redesigned at the request of a couple LEO's. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing wrong with the 92FS. If they stopped making that slide/frame combo - then there might be cause to speculate that the design was defective. But they haven't and it isn't.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:39:04 PM EDT
Dragracerart, I believe you are correct. I bought an Italian 92F around the time the Military adopted the M9. After the slide incidents were publicized, I heard there was a retrofit kit (before the 92FS) that was recommended. I contacted Beretta and asked about it. They told me I didn't need it, because the slide breaks occured in military pistols made at the Maryland plant and shooting submachinegun ammo. They went on to say that there has never been a failure of an Italian 92F that they are aware of. I still have mine, it is still going strong after I would guess about 12-13,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:42:00 PM EDT
The slide was redesigned to add the removable front sight and also as a precaution against slide failures when people use crazy ammunitions like the SEALs did. It also helps reduce the recoil with hot 9mm and .40 rounds.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 9:20:12 PM EDT
I have a Taurus and was issued a Berreta for duty carry. I must say the Taurus seems more accurate and has never jammed at all on me, and costs less money..The Beretta was an ok pistol, it had a few failues to fully chamber the next round at the range, but a whack on the rear of the slide fixed them. Accuracy was ok as well.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 5:21:25 AM EDT
I have a 92fs and it is the only gun outside of my revolvers that never jam. I mean never!!! My 1911 had some and others once in a while but the 92fs never! I started carrying in my belt on my right kidney. I don't even know it is there. Can anyone tell me if there is a rig to carry like that.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 10:58:53 AM EDT
ConnYankee, You're right, the 92 is a POS. I'll give you $100 for yours so you won't have to look at it any longer. You really don't want to risk your life by ever shooting it again. Oh, and include any of those crappy factory mags. Dave
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 5:54:20 PM EDT
I have carried a 96FS Berreta for quite sometime on a daily basis, the climate in the area can be somewhat adverse, the Beretta has been as reliable as anything can be. It took me a bit of practice to get the first shot(D.A.)off quickly but now it's quite natural. The Berreta is ultra reliable, extremely accurate and it is a rather nice looking pistol. After many years and many autopistols this is the one for me. Have a nice evening, Rabon
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 6:05:11 PM EDT
Yeah, the SA/DA takes a little getting used to. I found out, though, that both my 96FS .40's like to shoot the first shot a bit high center, with the next two a bit low right. That equates to a head shot and two to the heart. Works for me!
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 6:28:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BKVic: Hmmm, sights suck and so does the trigger? Sounds more like a shooter problem then a Beretta problem! :)
View Quote
The first pistol mentioned in my post belongs to an IPSC shooter. I am also an IPSC shooter. I believe IPSC is the premire pisytol shooting sport and we know a bit about pistols. I didnt say they were all junk and neither did I say they were worthless. I said the sights suck. The red three dot that they come with are dark and hard to aquire quickly. Because of the lack of material on the front portion of the slide they cannot be changed, it`s part of the slide not pinned in so you are stuck with the dark red dot up front. The jamming occured to resistor and he is ex airborne, he`s no stranger to firearms. I tried only two rounds after his was jamming and it worked for me. I mentioned two guns, and didnt bash the entire line like I would with the Sigma`s. The trigger on evry 92 I`ve tried is not what I call a good trigger and I would fix that, on the other hand it is very easy to fix the trigger. I have read the tests the Army did to the 92 and can only say I was impressed. No other handgun I know of could pass all the tests. Box stock and ready to rock? Not for me. A fine combat pistol? Yes with a few mods. As for calling other people`s opinions BS. Well, that`s just bad form. He was only passing on information that he thought the originator of this post might like to know.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 7:34:12 PM EDT
I have both a 92F Italian and 92FS. Everything that you have read is true. Seals using ammo twice the normal pressure with very large numbers of rounds already ran through them. And the metallurgy problems with the U.S. slides. Yes the 92FS is beefed up in all the areas mentioned. And it has the slide stop so it will not blow off. I have even talked to Beretta about the problems. I have shot everything through the 92F. I would not even worry about the higher pressure ammo. You are never going to get near the pressures that the seals were using. I have shot over 20,000 plus rounds through both of them and believe it or not, never had 1 functioning problem. I also know a lot of people with both the F & FS. Never heard one of them having a complaint. But these people also take care of their weapons and do not abuse them. I really hate to put down my Government models and all the other really fine European autoloaders out there because I have shot them all and many of them are good weapons. The 92's are the best autoloaders on the market. No other autoloader is as accurate right out of the box. I have never shot better groups with anything else except the .22LR's. It is also the best combat pistol on the market. Believe me, you feel a lot more comfortable being in combat in another country or anywhere as far as that goes using a NATO round. I will take it over a .45 any day in a combat situation. Anyone with half a brain that wears body armor will be wearing a high level and quite possibly additional panels or trauma plates. You are probably not going to get through them with any handgun. There are a lot of vital areas on the body if you are an accurate shooter and can control the weapon and make your follow-up shots. You cannot give up excellent accuracy, reliability, control, abundance of ammunition and practice, practice, practice, over a larger caliber when confronting someone in a life and death situation.
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