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Posted: 8/12/2005 5:46:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 5:48:00 PM EDT by elvisp]
www.blather.net/articles/accidentalsatanists.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hellfire_Club
The Hellfire Club was an exclusive English club that met irregularly from 1746 to around 1763, run by Sir Francis Dashwood. In popular legend they held notorious, orgiastic and satanic meetings at Medmenham Abbey, beside the Thames.

The term was not invented by the 1750 club; they first met to celebrate an earlier club founded in 1720 by Charles Edward. Other clubs using the name were set up throughout the 18th century.

At the first gathering in May 1746, they met at the George and Vulture public house in Lombard Street, London, the meeting place of the 1720s group. The initial membership was limited to twelve but it soon increased. Of the original twelve, seven have been almost certainly identified: Dashwood, Robert Vansittart, William Hogarth, Thomas Potter, Francis Duffield, Edward Thompson, and Paul Whitehead. Though not a member, Benjamin Franklin occasionally attended the club's meetings. The later membership is potentially immense, including John Wilkes and John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich.

They did not call themselves the Hellfire Club, but used a number of mockingly religious titles, initially the Brotherhood of St. Francis of Wycombe. Other titles used included the Order of Knights of West Wycombe and later the Monks of Medmenham. The members called each other brothers and referred to Dashwood as abbot; female guests were nuns. Unlike the more determined Satanists of the 1720s the club motto was Fay ce que vouldras (Do what thou wilt) from François Rabelais, later used by Aleister Crowley. Although indulging in pseudo-Satanic rites the 'monks' were keener devotaries of Bacchus and Venus.

The George and Vulture burned down in 1749, possibly owing to a club meeting. After a hiatus meetings were resumed at members' homes. Dashwood built a temple in the grounds of his West Wycombe home and nearby 'catacombs' were excavated. The first meeting at Wycombe was held on Walpurgis Night, 1752; a much larger meeting, it was something of a failure and no large-scale meetings were held there again. Despite this and the factionalising of the club Dashwood acquired the ruins of Medmenham Abbey in 1755, which was rebuilt by the architect Nicholas Revett in the style of the 18th century Gothic revival. In 1762 factional stresses and political rivalries turned the affairs of the club into public clashes and under heavy pressure the club finally disbanded.

:

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:47:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 5:47:49 PM EDT by elvisp]
.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:48:10 PM EDT
You quoted your own original dumb post all over again??
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:48:32 PM EDT
Well they did find a bunch of dead bodies under his house.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:51:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
You quoted your own original dumb post all over again??


Nobody forced you to read it. Lighten up.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:51:55 PM EDT
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:54:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



Well documented however, are the visits of Benjamin Franklin to the home of Sir Francis Dashwood, between the years of 1764 and 1775, when Franklin was an agent of the Pennsylvania Assembly. Dashwood, like John Wilkes, was a supporter of American Independence, and Franklin was free to come and go as he pleased from West Wycombe. It may surprise some of you to know that Dashwood - head of the English Hell-Fire club - and Benjamin Franklin - never the most religious of men, collaborated on the *Abridgement of the Book of Common Prayer*, mainly because they thought the original book of common prayer was too boring!
http://www.blather.net/articles/accidentalsatanists.html
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:54:49 PM EDT
Yes he was, and George Washington was a member of the KKK, while Thomas Jefferson liked black woemn.

There..you fucking happy now?

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:57:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 5:57:48 PM EDT by MachinegunManiac]

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



Well documented however, are the visits of Benjamin Franklin to the home of Sir Francis Dashwood, between the years of 1764 and 1775, when Franklin was an agent of the Pennsylvania Assembly. Dashwood, like John Wilkes, was a supporter of American Independence, and Franklin was free to come and go as he pleased from West Wycombe. It may surprise some of you to know that Dashwood - head of the English Hell-Fire club - and Benjamin Franklin - never the most religious of men, collaborated on the *Abridgement of the Book of Common Prayer*, mainly because they thought the original book of common prayer was too boring!
http://www.blather.net/articles/accidentalsatanists.html


I didn't say he was the most devout. But back then to be "not the most religious" was to be a "devout" Christian in today's low standards.

Christianity played a huge part in his life and his way of thinking.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:57:40 PM EDT
www.victorianweb.org/history/pms/hellfire.html
The Hell Fire Club initially was based at Medmenham Abbey which Sir Francis bought and converted into an erotic garden. The members of the Hell-Fire club took part in mock religious ceremonies and used masks and costumes to allow them to indulge in varying degrees of debauchery. Medmenham gained some notoriety so the Hell Fire club moved to a more secluded site at West Wycombe caves. Members of the club included Sir Francis Dashwood, the Earl of Sandwich, Thomas Potter (the son of the Archbishop of Canterbury), John Wilkes, William Hogarth, the Earl of Bute, the Marquis of Granby, the Prince of Wales and possibly Benjamin Franklin and Horace Walpole. It was alleged that the 'monks' took prostitutes down the Thames from London in barges to act as masked 'nuns'. The members of the Club also were accused of celebrating the Black Mass over the naked bodies of aristocratic ladies, one of whom was Lady Mary Montagu Wortley, the mother-in-law of the Earl of Bute.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:58:20 PM EDT
Ben did his best work drawing treasure maps.How do I know?I watched National treasure of Course!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:58:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Yes he was, and George Washington was a member of the KKK, while Thomas Jefferson liked black woemn.

There..you fucking happy now?

Sgat1r5



+1

Fine, he was a devil worshiper. so be it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:58:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elvisp:
www.victorianweb.org/history/pms/hellfire.html
The Hell Fire Club initially was based at Medmenham Abbey which Sir Francis bought and converted into an erotic garden. The members of the Hell-Fire club took part in mock religious ceremonies and used masks and costumes to allow them to indulge in varying degrees of debauchery. Medmenham gained some notoriety so the Hell Fire club moved to a more secluded site at West Wycombe caves. Members of the club included Sir Francis Dashwood, the Earl of Sandwich, Thomas Potter (the son of the Archbishop of Canterbury), John Wilkes, William Hogarth, the Earl of Bute, the Marquis of Granby, the Prince of Wales and possibly Benjamin Franklin and Horace Walpole. It was alleged that the 'monks' took prostitutes down the Thames from London in barges to act as masked 'nuns'. The members of the Club also were accused of celebrating the Black Mass over the naked bodies of aristocratic ladies, one of whom was Lady Mary Montagu Wortley, the mother-in-law of the Earl of Bute.



What's that word to the left of that red word?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:58:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 5:59:20 PM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By elvisp:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
You quoted your own original dumb post all over again??


Nobody forced you to read it. Lighten up.




That seemed tense to you?


Im quite casual about thinking your post is dumb, and now you just assisted me in forming an opinion on you
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:01:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:02:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 6:06:03 PM EDT by elvisp]
A mason, Benjamin Franklin's links to occult secret societies have long been known. In the clip below, the History Channel talks about his involvement in the Hellfire Club, a secret society that conducted black masses and orgies. These bizarre, occult practices are still going on today in secret societies like the Bohemian club (Alex Jones infilitrated the Bohemian Grove and caught one of their rituals on tape -- click here to go see the video).

In 1998, workmen restoring Franklin's London home dug up the remains of six children and four adults hidden below the home. The London Times reported on February 11, 1998:

"Initial estimates are that the bones are about 200 years old and were buried at the time Franklin was living in the house, which was his home from 1757 to 1762, and from 1764 to 1775. Most of the bones show signs of having been dissected, sawn or cut. One skull has been drilled with several holes. Paul Knapman, the Westminster Coroner, said yesterday: "I cannot totally discount the possibility of a crime. There is still a possibility that I may have to hold an inquest." (Scroll down to read the entire article)
The elite's fascination with the occult is hidden in plain view everywhere you look. Movies like National Treasure openly remind us of this fascination, while prominent members of society, like Pat Robertson, use public venues and publications to signal their illuminati allegiance. (In the photo to the left, Robertson uses the masonic Lion's Paw sign)




History Channel Clip Discussing Benjamin Franklin's Occult Elite Involvement

Remains of ten bodies at Ben Franklin's home

The Sunday Times |February 11, 1998

WORKMEN have dug up the remains of ten bodies hidden beneath the former London home of Benjamin Franklin, the founding father of American independence.

The remains of four adults and six children were discovered during the £1.9 million restoration of Franklin's home at 36 Craven Street, close to Trafalgar Square. Researchers believe that there could be more bodies buried beneath the basement kitchens.

Initial estimates are that the bones are about 200 years old and were buried at the time Franklin was living in the house, which was his home from 1757 to 1762, and from 1764 to 1775. Most of the bones show signs of having been dissected, sawn or cut. One skull has been drilled with several holes. Paul Knapman, the Westminster Coroner, said yesterday: "I cannot totally discount the possibility of a crime. There is still a possibility that I may have to hold an inquest."

The principal suspect in the mystery is William Hewson, like Franklin a Fellow of the Royal Society, and the husband of Polly Stevenson, the daughter of Franklin's landlady, Mary Stevenson.

In the early 1770s Dr Hewson was in partnership with William Hunter, who, with his brother John, was one of the founders of British surgery. Dr Hunter and Dr Hewson ran a school of anatomy in Soho, but after an argument Dr Hewson left to live in Franklin's house, where he is believed to have established a rival school and lecture theatre. Dr Knapman added yesterday: "It is most likely that these are anatomical specimens that Dr Hewson disposed of in his own house, but we are still not certain about the bones' exact age or origin."

Evangeline Hunter-Jones, deputy chairman of the Friends of Benjamin Franklin House, the charity concerned with restoring the property and opening it to the public, said: "The bones were quite deeply buried, probably to hide them because grave robbing was illegal. There could be more buried, and there probably are."

Brian Owen Smith has volunteered to lead researches on behalf of the friends. He said yesterday: "The discovery represents an important insight into very exciting years of medical history. Benjamin Franklin, through his support for Polly and Dr Hewson, socially and scientifically, was very much part of that."

To the suggestion that Franklin might have been a grave robber, or an accomplice to Dr Hewson, Hilaire Dubourcq, of the Friends of Benjamin Franklin House, responded: "It is possible that he has an alibi. It seems likely that he actually let Dr Hewson have use of the whole house for his school for a time, and went up the street to live with Mary Stevenson. He did not necessarily know what was happening below stairs in the house during his absence."

Dr Hewson fell victim to his own researches at an early age. He accidentally cut himself while dissecting a putrid body, contracted septicemia and died in 1774, aged 34.

Franklin, who wrote the opening words to the Declaration of Independence, continued to support the widowed Polly, and when he returned to Philadelphia he invited her there to live as his neighbour. Both her sons became eminent medical men, as have successive generations of Hewsons in America.

If the first Dr Hewson did obtain bodies for his experiments and demonstrations by robbing local graveyards, he risked the death penalty or deportation. He might have had the help of his students in secretly burying the remains beneath the four-storey house, where the dissections may have been performed.

It is hoped to reopen the house to the public at the end of the year. Regular visitors during Franklin's residency included Pitt the Elder (the Earl of Chatham), Edmund Burke, James Boswell, Adam Smith and Thomas Paine, the author of The Rights of Man.

www.infowars.com/articles/occult/hellfire.htm
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:03:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.


Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:04:16 PM EDT
And I am pretty sure Betsy Ross did anal.



Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:06:08 PM EDT
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:11:07 PM EDT
I think it's interesting that the only Agnostic of the bunch, Thomas Jefferson, was in Paris when the Constitution was being written
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:18:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 6:19:04 PM EDT by red65]
It's all a bunch of crap.

Nobody is going to read a book entitled, "Abe Lincoln was a Normal Gentleman"

But they'll read one called, "Abe Lincoln a Fudge Packer!"


Authors become well known by writing papers and books about controversial topics about famous people.

Now we suddenly find that Ben Franklin, a man who founded his life on high moral integrity, is a supposedly a satan worshipper.

Next year they'll find "proof" that he was a transvestite.

They say Shakespeare was a homo. Everyone famous was a homo apparently.

Read Ben Franklin's autobiography. That guy had good character and it shows in pages of his book and the actions of his life.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:21:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
And I am pretty sure Betsy Ross did anal.



Sgat1r5



I knew there was a reason why I liked her!!!
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:23:21 PM EDT


go pick on yer own history
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:25:33 PM EDT
This just in...many of the FF wore wigs.

So that just PROVES they were....HOMOSEXUALS!!!!!!!


<gasp>

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:30:37 PM EDT
"Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy." Ben Franklin.

Otherwise...the dude is dead and has no effect on my life.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:46:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



LOL, dude. They are not.

Murder, theft, rape, etc., etc., have been illegal in most human societies as part of common law long before the Abrahamic religions came about.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:58:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.


Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



They sure are, and are the foundation of our laws. But they came from where? The Ten Commandments. Are the Ten Commandments strictly Christian teachings? No, they're not. They're from the Torah.

Many of the FF's believed in god, some of them like Thomas Paine had eccentric religious beliefs, and some of them were Christians. Christian principles and faith did not inspire any of the original documents and charters of the US. If you can find references to Jesus in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, or give examples of those documents that have clear parallels in the New Testament, maybe I could see what you mean.

The overall culture of the US is deeply influenced by Christianity and in that sense, it is a Christian nation and I think the influence has been largely beneficial. But the 1st amendment of the Constitution clearly states there's no official or state religion for the USA.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:50:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists



More BS...
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists



More BS...



No, this is common knowledge.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:58:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 9:05:20 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists



More BS...



No, this is common knowledge.



No it is BS and myth and easly proven not true.

This is the kind thing everybody knows like…

There is a huge increase in suicides in December around the holidays… EVERYBODY know this to be fact, you will even see news stories ever December reinforcing this idea. It is not true never was December on average is one of the LOWEST months for sucide. That don't stop everybody from knowing different.

Just a little scraping under the surface easily disproves most of the Founding fathers were deist, that is just NOT true. There might have been a few deist in the mix but NOTHING anybody can show for sure and you can absolutely show most of the Founders were Christians. Speculation and supposition is not fact or real history.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:02:29 PM EDT
In before the mason bashing crew.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:05:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.


Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



The Sumerians beg to differ.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:06:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:07:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 9:09:10 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists



...despite any hard evidence showing they were.




EXACTLY.

The claim is not supportable with real historical fact. You can suppose what you want that does not make it correct there is more that ample evidence that the VAST majority of the Founders were Christians.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:11:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Benjamin Franklin was a religious, Christian man. He was a independent thinker and inventor but he was a devout Christian. This can be seen in what he said and the way he spoke. The founding fathers used "God" and many other religious ideas when they created this nation.

The Constitution and BOR is based on Christian beliefs along with our laws at the time.



You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.


Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



I really don't like jumping in the middle of these things, but I feel the need on this one. Those aren't JUST religous principals, they have been around a lot longer than Christian beliefs, or any of the major religions we have in this modern day and age.

If this country were based JUST on Christian principals, the Ten Commandments would be law, written into the Constitution. Last time I checked, they aren't. The United States of America's laws were based on what is good for everyone as a whole. Having people running around killing people and stealing things don't do good things for a country as a whole.

-Storm
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:11:52 PM EDT
I'd like to know how this subject got to Page 2.

Michael Moore is more believable.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:56:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists

...despite any hard evidence showing they were.




Yeah, except for that inconvenient thing called the historical record. But we can ignore that. Facts don't matter. It's all about "faith."

Please excuse the sarcasm, but I've reached my tolerance of Christian nonsense for the week. I think it was the old earth vs. young earth thread. The willful ignorance of fundies amazes/frustrates me to no end.


Originally Posted By treelander:
"Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy." Ben Franklin.

Otherwise...the dude is dead and has no effect on my life.



Fuckin' aye.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:35:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 6:40:06 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:47:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 6:49:39 AM EDT by Greenhorn]
Mark Twain killed homeless children and ate their hearts. Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote that book as a cover for her many secret lynchings of blacks. George Washington Carver didn't really invent peanut butter, his friend did and GWC stole the idea.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:54:40 AM EDT
Alrighty then!

When is someone going to come along with the revelation that Abraham Lincoln was teh gay??

Just seems to me that there are plenty of folks out there that would like nothing better than to color America's heroes in a negative fashion.

We as humans are not perfect, but some (axe grinders) get great satisfaction in "exposing" great figureheads as "less than desirable".

Fook 'em!!


Damn, I feel better. That is all.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:00:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
Ben Franklin, along with most of the Founding Fathers were Deists



...despite any hard evidence showing they were.




EXACTLY.

The claim is not supportable with real historical fact. You can suppose what you want that does not make it correct there is more that ample evidence that the VAST majority of the Founders were Christians.



Well i have a degree in History and have spent most of the last 15 years studying the American Revolution. That said, I have yet to see very many writings from the Founding Fathers that have any mention of Christ. Plenty of talk about God, the God of Nature, the Supreme Architect, etc. but nothing about Jesus. The first 5 presidents are generally agreed to have been Deists. George Washington would go to Church services with his wife but would always leave when it came time for communion.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:06:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 7:09:26 AM EDT by Tango7]

Originally Posted By raven:

You're completely wrong. Many of the FF's had nothing but contempt for Christianity. Franklin, I am almost positive, was not a Christian. Let me just say that while I'm not a Christian, I certainly respect the faith a great deal and have nothing against it. But I always get irked when Christians say that the US was founded on the ideals and beliefs of Christianity. It wasn't, please accept it.

He was a hedonist and womanizer, though. The Hellfire Club was probably just a club of like-minded elite guys who liked to get their freak on.



Franklin was a Deist, but not a "Christian", IIRC.

ETA - if in fact devout, proselytizing Christiains, why "their Creator" and not "God", or "Jesus Christ"?

And the FF's had contempt for state organized religion like the one they fled from (Church of England) - thus the "Congress shall make no law establishing" clause. They didn't want to see a religion perverted / corrupted to accomodate the whims of the ruler in power.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:24:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 7:26:31 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:25:07 AM EDT
They also had recently history to refer to...as in the numerous civil wars in England that resulted from various Kings/Queens trying make various religions the national religion.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:29:37 AM EDT
<----Founder and charter member of the arfcom mason/secret society/other unGodly organization bashing crew

<---thoroughly UNimpressed with this thread.


*yawn*



<---also believe BF and GW were deists, or at best very 'casual' Christians, but really sees no point in debating it.


YMMV, IBTL, AGNTSA, and enjoy the ride to the pit; be sure sure to stop for refreshments at the religion forum first. Take Tylenol for headaches, Midol for cramps, fresh air and sunshine for internet addiction.

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 7:33:14 AM EDT
Here is an interesting quote from Thomas Jefferson

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:31:24 PM EDT
Turns out Thomas Paine was a hardcore Deist too
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:13:17 PM EDT
Ben Franklin was a drunken perv...
The earl of sandwich used to take franklin to the hellfire club and wallow in all the depths of booze/sex they could get their grubby paws on.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:18:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:20:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



No, they are also religious principles.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 2:28:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 2:29:56 PM EDT by Greenhorn]

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

Really? Why is mureder illegal? Why is thievery illegal? Those are religious principles.



No, they are also religious principles.



The problem is that if laws are purely left up to Man, murder and thievery can be made legal (it already is in the case of abortion and eminent domain). A Godly system is absolutely NECESSARY for a country to last.
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