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Posted: 11/20/2018 3:48:48 AM EDT
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The whole podcast/video is good, but specifically, who do you agree with more on this topic or who presents the stronger case? Or is it just a small taste of an important debate?
Watch the whole clip

poll inbound
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 3:52:30 AM EDT
You can't cuck the Tuck
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 4:19:18 AM EDT
'If we are going to maintain the freedom and stability....there are two ways we can tackle that....the constitution was only built for a moral and virtuous people, it wasn't built for any other...and if we are no longer moral and no longer virtuous, so we have to change freedom.  Or, if you want to maintain the freedom, we have to become a moral and virtuous people again'
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I like both of them.  I just wish Tucker would lower his voice an octave when he makes an exclamation, and I wish Ben would talk s-l-o-w-e-r overall.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 4:41:33 AM EDT
Tucker is a major disappointment here.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 4:43:01 AM EDT
Shapiro.

Tucker did sound like a Luddite.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:01:43 AM EDT
Wall Street hates us. Why are we defending them again?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:31:44 AM EDT
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:36:24 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
View Quote
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:38:12 AM EDT
Tucker any day.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:46:04 AM EDT
Tucker by default.

Shapiro is no 2A purist.  Supports the NFA, banning of bump stocks (along with Trump and the NRAint) etc.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 5:52:01 AM EDT
I don't like to watch or listen to either of them. They are both academic debaters, and I feel as though I am listening to a college kid on stage at a university just trying to score a point. There's not a whole lot of real anger or emotion with either of those two guys when they voice their point. It comes accross as purely academic. Tucker especially annoys me via allowing the worst libtard guests onto his show to voice their warped opinion. Keep the lefty SOBs on MSNBC. I don't need to hear them on Fox!!

I will NOT be able to change the mind of a Michael Moore America hater or a college professor who promotes leftist indoctrination to his students.  Why waste time talking with these kinds of people? It accomplishes nothing and I don't find it entertaining.

Link Posted: 11/20/2018 6:03:38 AM EDT
I understand what Tucker is saying, as does everyone here on Arfcom, but it has been my 65 year experience on this earth that you simply cannot stop progress.

Sucks in some regards but you really can't stop it.....it is part of life and should be accepted for the most part IMHO.

In defense of Carlson, am I 100 percent sure I am right...…...no.

People have wrestled with this issue since forever...……...
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 6:10:38 AM EDT
Shapiro makes a better case.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:05:54 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:14:07 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Neither I or not Tucker mentioned subsidizing anything

Trucking isnt to big to fail, in fact we are talking about it failing, and failing soon.

Death.

Cult.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:15:50 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Farming for one, which we already do subsidize in order to maintain a high domestic production level. We subsidize energy as well, similar reasons. You can go full on autistic muh markets like Ben Shapiro or take a pragmatic approach like Tucker and recognize we already do these things and we have the tools to get ahead of the problem.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:21:01 AM EDT
lol @ lolberts
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:24:03 AM EDT
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lol @ lolberts
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They really have no answers. Shapiro in this video actually suggested the problem with the economy for working class might be lack of jesus. I don't know how Tucker kept a straight face.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:29:12 AM EDT
This is the weirdest "who would you do" thread ever OP.

Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:32:28 AM EDT
Lolberts gonna lolbert.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 8:45:14 AM EDT
I had the opportunity to meet Ben Shapiro last week. We sat down and talked for about 15 minutes. He is down to earth, and is a true believer in the 2nd amendment.  I walked away having a greater respect for him.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:04:46 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Neither I or not Tucker mentioned subsidizing anything

Trucking isnt to big to fail, in fact we are talking about it failing, and failing soon.

Death.

Cult.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Neither I or not Tucker mentioned subsidizing anything

Trucking isnt to big to fail, in fact we are talking about it failing, and failing soon.

Death.

Cult.
If government regulations purposely stifle competition to an industry, there is a hidden tax where the consumer is subsidizing that benefitting industry.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:06:10 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If government regulations purposely stifle competition to an industry, there is a hidden tax where the consumer is subsidizing that benefitting industry.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Neither I or not Tucker mentioned subsidizing anything

Trucking isnt to big to fail, in fact we are talking about it failing, and failing soon.

Death.

Cult.
If government regulations purposely stifle competition to an industry, there is a hidden tax where the consumer is subsidizing that benefitting industry.
Hidden?

Like it doesn't actually exist?

I guess so
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:06:25 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I had the opportunity to meet Ben Shapiro last week. We sat down and talked for about 15 minutes. He is down to earth, and is a true believer in the 2nd amendment.  I walked away having a greater respect for him.
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Shapiro is a milquetoast conservative at best. He supports the NFA and banning bump stocks.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:09:39 AM EDT
These arguments are what people and government SHOULD be arguing about and working through. But our congress is too stupid, corrupt, and afraid to talk about what matters. They can’t even do budgets anymore. Pathetic.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:11:26 AM EDT
Neither of these guys have worked an honest job their entire lives.  Both were born wealthy (Tucker the heir to the Swanson fortune) and have basically been political pundits their entire lives since getting their degrees.

That having been said - Tucker is making a more nuanced argument here though I don't necessarily like the conclusion (we can't protect every industry just to try and save jobs) whereas Shapiro comes across as a naive ideologue but his conclusion (people need to get the skills in demand and then go move to where the jobs are) seems more sound.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:12:54 AM EDT
I love watching them both eviscerate lefties on YouTube...
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:14:29 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Neither of these guys have worked an honest job their entire lives.  Both were born wealthy (Tucker the heir to the Swanson fortune) and have basically been political pundits their entire lives since getting their degrees.

That having been said - Tucker is making a more nuanced argument here though I don't necessarily like the conclusion (we can't protect every industry just to try and save jobs) whereas Shapiro comes across as a naive ideologue but his conclusion (people need to get the skills in demand and then go move to where the jobs are) seems more sound.
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That is your conclusion though, not his. He is discussing the number one employment field that is currently in danger of being obsoleted in the somewhat near future. Abstracting and extrapolating everything is why nothing positive is ever done and we all just look around wondering what is happening to our country.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:22:00 AM EDT
Shapiro isn't wrong all the time, but he has a voice that goes through my head like a knife.

And his anti-Trump stance is often times irrational.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:23:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
These arguments are what people and government SHOULD be arguing about and working through. But our congress is too stupid, corrupt, and afraid to talk about what matters. They can’t even do budgets anymore. Pathetic.
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I agree. The way I see it is our primary disagreement is what is actually the role of government. Is it to protect the interests of its citizens or facilitate the accumulation of wealth at all costs? The neocon/neoliberal approach is to assist those who are best at accumulating mass amounts of wealth and in the process disregard the citizenry until the end of the process. Their view is turn the US into a global market place: unleash the rent seekers, multinational corporations, sacrifice middle class jobs and then just shave a little off for welfare programs to make up for lost jobs or societal issues caused in the process. The Tucker approach seems to be putting the concerns of the citizenry up front even if it means less than optimal wealth accumulation strategies.

Basically is the USA our homeland or is it a global marketplace and resource?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:24:02 AM EDT
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Quoted:
That is your conclusion though, not his. He is discussing the number one employment field that is currently in danger of being obsoleted in the somewhat near future. Abstracting and extrapolating everything is why nothing positive is ever done and we all just look around wondering what is happening to our country.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Neither of these guys have worked an honest job their entire lives.  Both were born wealthy (Tucker the heir to the Swanson fortune) and have basically been political pundits their entire lives since getting their degrees.

That having been said - Tucker is making a more nuanced argument here though I don't necessarily like the conclusion (we can't protect every industry just to try and save jobs) whereas Shapiro comes across as a naive ideologue but his conclusion (people need to get the skills in demand and then go move to where the jobs are) seems more sound.
That is your conclusion though, not his. He is discussing the number one employment field that is currently in danger of being obsoleted in the somewhat near future. Abstracting and extrapolating everything is why nothing positive is ever done and we all just look around wondering what is happening to our country.
But who will pay for the roads?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:26:20 AM EDT
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Farming for one, which we already do subsidize in order to maintain a high domestic production level. We subsidize energy as well, similar reasons. You can go full on autistic muh markets like Ben Shapiro or take a pragmatic approach like Tucker and recognize we already do these things and we have the tools to get ahead of the problem.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Farming for one, which we already do subsidize in order to maintain a high domestic production level. We subsidize energy as well, similar reasons. You can go full on autistic muh markets like Ben Shapiro or take a pragmatic approach like Tucker and recognize we already do these things and we have the tools to get ahead of the problem.
Do you think kale needs to be subsidized the manner wheat is subsidized?
Do you think the retired guy selling ears of corn at the farmers market the fall should get the same protections as Cargill has?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:26:37 AM EDT
Tucker isn't right on this, however he does lay out plenty of logic to what he he thinks. He put far more thought into his answer than any liberal I have ever seen.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:27:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That is your conclusion though, not his. He is discussing the number one employment field that is currently in danger of being obsoleted in the somewhat near future. Abstracting and extrapolating everything is why nothing positive is ever done and we all just look around wondering what is happening to our country.
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So what happens when we ban self-driving trucks to protect truck drivers' jobs and every other country allows self-driving trucks?  Then not only do all of our goods become more expensive due to higher logistics/transportation costs, but we also miss out on an entirely new industry designing, building, and maintaining self-driving trucks.

Now, I'm not adopting the libertarian "fuck you, not my fault if everyone loses their job" position.  However, if the government is going to spend money I'd rather they spend it on re-training the truck drivers and helping them adapt to a new job than spend it trying to protect something that is becoming obsolete due to technology.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:32:27 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Hidden?

Like it doesn't actually exist?

I guess so
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Neither I or not Tucker mentioned subsidizing anything

Trucking isnt to big to fail, in fact we are talking about it failing, and failing soon.

Death.

Cult.
If government regulations purposely stifle competition to an industry, there is a hidden tax where the consumer is subsidizing that benefitting industry.
Hidden?

Like it doesn't actually exist?

I guess so
If you think paying a higher price for an item because the government isn't allowing the market to create competition that would lower that item's price isn't a government created artificial premium (that's probably a better term) then well, I don't really know what to say to you.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:32:34 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Do you think kale needs to be subsidized the manner wheat is subsidized?
Do you think the retired guy selling ears of corn at the farmers market the fall should get the same protections as Cargill has?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tucker is wrong.

Sounds like he wants regulations in place to hold back companies from advancing to the next level.
Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
What other industries or career fields do you think should be subsidized or are too big to fail?
Farming for one, which we already do subsidize in order to maintain a high domestic production level. We subsidize energy as well, similar reasons. You can go full on autistic muh markets like Ben Shapiro or take a pragmatic approach like Tucker and recognize we already do these things and we have the tools to get ahead of the problem.
Do you think kale needs to be subsidized the manner wheat is subsidized?
Do you think the retired guy selling ears of corn at the farmers market the fall should get the same protections as Cargill has?
I don't have the data on kale production. But in a hypothetical scenario where some small town relies heavily on kale production to drive it's local economy I would support a subsidy (tariff, or otherwise) to protect that from imports in order to maintain the ecosystem of that town and their family's history and soil. As for the retired guy, I'm not sure that scenario is even worth entertaining. To be fair here, the original topic was about the most common occupation in the country which happens to be facing obsolescence in the near future. What is your position?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:33:02 AM EDT
I feel like autonomous trucks will stay the fuck out of the left lane... So Shapiro.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:37:46 AM EDT
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Quoted:
So what happens when we ban self-driving trucks to protect truck drivers' jobs and every other country allows self-driving trucks?  Then not only do all of our goods become more expensive due to higher logistics/transportation costs, but we also miss out on an entirely new industry designing, building, and maintaining self-driving trucks.

Now, I'm not adopting the libertarian "fuck you, not my fault if everyone loses their job" position.  However, if the government is going to spend money I'd rather they spend it on re-training the truck drivers and helping them adapt to a new job than spend it trying to protect something that is becoming obsolete due to technology.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

That is your conclusion though, not his. He is discussing the number one employment field that is currently in danger of being obsoleted in the somewhat near future. Abstracting and extrapolating everything is why nothing positive is ever done and we all just look around wondering what is happening to our country.
So what happens when we ban self-driving trucks to protect truck drivers' jobs and every other country allows self-driving trucks?  Then not only do all of our goods become more expensive due to higher logistics/transportation costs, but we also miss out on an entirely new industry designing, building, and maintaining self-driving trucks.

Now, I'm not adopting the libertarian "fuck you, not my fault if everyone loses their job" position.  However, if the government is going to spend money I'd rather they spend it on re-training the truck drivers and helping them adapt to a new job than spend it trying to protect something that is becoming obsolete due to technology.
Why don't we just design, build and export self driving vehicles. We don't have to miss that market, we can produce and export things without deploying them here. As for more expensive goods, as Tucker was saying there are social and societal costs to eliminating the number one employment opportunity for high school educated adult males. You really think you're going to save money in the end after factoring in welfare, drugs, crime, broken homes, gutted towns and more generational poverty? We've watched neoliberalism and multinational corporation reign for the last 50 years, is it working how Ben Shapiro tells you it works or do your eyes see differently?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:40:36 AM EDT
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What is your position?
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What is my position on driverless trucks or on the questions I asked you?
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:41:42 AM EDT
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But in a hypothetical scenario where some small town relies heavily on kale production to drive it's local economy I would support a subsidy (tariff, or otherwise) to protect that from imports in order to maintain the ecosystem of that town and their family's history and soil.
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For how long though?  I mean, I could maybe see doing this for a short period of time while they transition to something else.  But as an ongoing policy?  We'd still have towns making horse drawn carriages, carburetors, tube TVs, cassette players, and a whole host of other shit no one wants to buy all at taxpayer expense.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:41:51 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Shapiro isn't wrong all the time, but he has a voice that goes through my head like a knife.

And his anti-Trump stance is often times irrational.
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He and Chris Wallace have two of the most unmanly voices I have ever heard.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:41:51 AM EDT
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What is mu position on driverless trucks or on the questions I asked you?
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What is your position?
What is mu position on driverless trucks or on the questions I asked you?
The original topic, holding back progress in the interest of the citizenry.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:42:44 AM EDT
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Quoted:

Do you think kale needs to be subsidized the manner wheat is subsidized?
Do you think the retired guy selling ears of corn at the farmers market the fall should get the same protections as Cargill has?
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Don't be dissin' kale...…..I grow and eat a lot of kale!!!

Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:44:01 AM EDT
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For how long though?  I mean, I could maybe see doing this for a short period of time while they transition to something else.  But as an ongoing policy?  We'd still have towns making horse drawn carriages, carburetors, tube TVs, cassette players, and a whole host of other shit no one wants to buy all at taxpayer expense.
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Quoted:
But in a hypothetical scenario where some small town relies heavily on kale production to drive it's local economy I would support a subsidy (tariff, or otherwise) to protect that from imports in order to maintain the ecosystem of that town and their family's history and soil.
For how long though?  I mean, I could maybe see doing this for a short period of time while they transition to something else.  But as an ongoing policy?  We'd still have towns making horse drawn carriages, carburetors, tube TVs, cassette players, and a whole host of other shit no one wants to buy all at taxpayer expense.
I suppose when people were no longer buying the product it wouldn't make sense. People would still be buying kale, I doubt there is a market for cassette players at any price.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:47:24 AM EDT
I can't believe so many people actually want motherfucking robots on the roads.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:47:46 AM EDT
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Wall Street hates us. Why are we defending them again?
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Have you even read Adam Smith?

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:48:31 AM EDT
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Why don't we just design, build and export self driving vehicles. We don't have to miss that market, we can produce and export things without deploying them here.
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Quoted:
Why don't we just design, build and export self driving vehicles. We don't have to miss that market, we can produce and export things without deploying them here.
Because it's next to impossible to start an export industry with no domestic demand from scratch.  Historically, you generally start with a domestic industry and then grow internationally once it's established.

As for more expensive goods, as Tucker was saying there are social and societal costs
Which is why free market capitalism cannot be a religion - Tucker was absolutely right about that.  Free markets work for most stuff but not everything.  A prime example where markets fail is when there are externalities, which is what you point out here.  This REQUIRES government intervention, something many on the right do not want to hear.  However, the real question needs to be - what sort of intervention?  I favor an approach like government job re-training and relocation support rather than trying to protect industries which are becoming technologically obsolete.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:49:20 AM EDT
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Shapiro.

Tucker did sound like a Luddite.
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It’s become clear since tucker wrote his book that he isn’t a real thinker or hard conservative.   I do think he is right in that family and community are a missing component to a happy life.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:49:59 AM EDT
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Quoted:

Do you have a better answer to the question of job loss? How can you rationalize knowingly making millions of Americans jobless due simply to convenience?

I'm convinced that lolbertarians are just a death cult at this point.
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Arbeit macht frei
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:50:31 AM EDT
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I suppose when people were no longer buying the product it wouldn't make sense. People would still be buying kale, I doubt there is a market for cassette players at any price.
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But that's where it leads.  You end up with the government paying farmers to dump their crops and then eventually paying them to just not farm at all.  This isn't a hypothetical.
Link Posted: 11/20/2018 9:51:01 AM EDT
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Because it's next to impossible to start an export industry with no domestic demand from scratch.  Historically, you generally start with a domestic industry and then grow internationally once it's established.

Which is why free market capitalism cannot be a religion - Tucker was absolutely right about that.  Free markets work for most stuff but not everything.  A prime example where markets fail is when there are externalities, which is what you point out here.  This REQUIRES government intervention, something many on the right do not want to hear.  However, the real question needs to be - what sort of intervention?  I favor an approach like government job re-training and relocation support rather than trying to protect industries which are becoming technologically obsolete.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Why don't we just design, build and export self driving vehicles. We don't have to miss that market, we can produce and export things without deploying them here.
Because it's next to impossible to start an export industry with no domestic demand from scratch.  Historically, you generally start with a domestic industry and then grow internationally once it's established.

As for more expensive goods, as Tucker was saying there are social and societal costs
Which is why free market capitalism cannot be a religion - Tucker was absolutely right about that.  Free markets work for most stuff but not everything.  A prime example where markets fail is when there are externalities, which is what you point out here.  This REQUIRES government intervention, something many on the right do not want to hear.  However, the real question needs to be - what sort of intervention?  I favor an approach like government job re-training and relocation support rather than trying to protect industries which are becoming technologically obsolete.
I mean China literally did this and has achieved the largest amount of wealth accumulation and growth among their middle class of all nations in the past decades. You don't actually have to get high on your own supply, some philosophers would even advise against it.
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