I've heard this story from a few different sources IRL and seen it a few places online, but not about post-docs.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/10/phds-in-distress-and-unsustainable-cost.html


(note: red text mine)

Interesting world we live in––all those low-paying manufacturing jobs are gone from the US now and that's okay, because we have this "information worker economy" instead––but now the figures are showing that even as school costs keep rising faster than inflation, getting the highest levels of degrees just doesn't seem to guarantee the income that it used to.

Make no mistake: offshoring is moving into upper-level jobs, and having a big fancy degree is not going to save you.
~

Nothing new.

as someone with a J.D. I can say this. If you get a degree to increase your income you're going about it wrong. If you get a degree to be allowed to do a particular job you'd love to do (that you'd pay good money to be ALLOWED to do) then it doesn't matter.

jealous of all your friends that went to college?

Ok?

No, I dropped out of college and guarantee you I make more money than 97% of the ones that went.

Everyone can expect their standard of living to continue to slide downhill.  The Fed's destruction of our money, the rampant fraud in govt and business, and of course, offshoring guarantee it.  

I would think long and hard about college and the degree you will pursue.  The universities DO NOT get it.  Very few degree's are a worthwhile investment anymore.  It used to be you could get  a good education even if the degree wouldnt give you a good job.  Forget both.

The most useless degree of all?  MBA.  I won't even look at a resume that has one on it.  Why would anyone drop $100k for such a completely worthless education is beyond me.  I know at least 5  collegues that have damn expensive ones from Texas and not one of them was able to turn it into any kind of better career.  The reason is simple - its a scam and everyone knows it.

This.......plus I never had school loans to pay back.

hmm...  my MBA cost far less than that (about $30K) and increased my salary 25% after I got it (changed jobs).  might want to look at more than just that on the resumes you're seeing...

My MBA with a finance emphasis costs $21,500 (I finish in a couple months).  The only real problem I see is in my area an MBA is like having a BS; everyone has one  

If you dont mind me asking, what do you two do?

+1

Im 35, went to a state college.That said a skilled trade will be the new Masters Degree outside of say healthcare.

I'm going to have to be very vague due to the company I work for.  I hope y'all will take me at my word and not make me scan a business card with everything blanked out except my position and department.

Basically, I worked my way up into an engineering position with a large company through a little luck and a whole lot of hard work.  I started off sweeping the floor as a contracted employee(not for the company I currently work for), however due to my electronics background throughout HS and little bit of college, I was able to work my way up to where I am now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx––jNQYNgA

cool story bro.





 

My wife finished with her Masters in Counselling in May and has put out over 40 resumes. Not so much as an interview, yet, but about 10 "No thanks, you're overqualified"....

But not us 3%ers

This is wrong.  Rack up ALL THE DEBT you can at a lifetime fixed interest rate NOW while the going is good.  Later, when the real value of a dollar today is .10 cents, you will thank me

I think a mistake made by many advanced degree holders is starting  out with Bachelors that doesn't readily translate to a job in the private sector, which almost forces them to attend graduate school.  On the other hand, a good undergrad degree that can lead to an entry level job allows the new graduate to gain experience in the private sector while attending graduate school at the expense of their employer.
I get lots of resumes from advanced degree holders that showcase absolutely nothing - filled with meaningless jargon, no real accomplishments and often riddled with grammatical errors.  
I once had a brand new fresh out of college engineer initially accept and then wait to decline a very good job offer until the day before he was supposed to start by saying that he wanted to go to grad school immediately.  The idiot actually had the gall to call me a year later when he had finished to see if we'd be interested in hirinng him again.  My response was "no openings in the foreseeable future for you."
A college degree is only as good as the program of study, the other work you do while in school, your grades, and ultimately your presentability.  Plenty of trades people make far more money than college graduates, but they typically will wind up spending many years of their working life doing similar work, with more limited opportunities for continued advancement.  On the income curve, they still beat out lots of graduates, by a good margin.  So, it's up to the individual to make some critical decisions early in life when our normal decision making horizon is far shorter than it really needs to be.

Wow man.  How long were you hanging onto that one for the appropriate time to use it.  Glad you felt it was for my post.  2 people asked what I believe to be an honest question and I give them an honest answer and you feel the need to post your "cool story bro" shit.  Thanks for your contribution.

I am in no way knocking people who have college degrees(I actually wish I would have gotten mine but I don't think I would be where I am today if I stayed in and received one) However, I do think if someone is motivated and smart enough, they can achieve their goals without a college degree.

Old news...  Meh.

Getting a REAL education, like in brick laying, logging, farming, maybe even commercial pilot (big shortage of those coming up in a few years); is worth a lot more than a degree from a university outside law and medicine.  The market is glutted with college graduates of any sort, so people with practical trades have an advantage...  They can practice their trade.

Even if a logger isn't working for a big company, from time to time he can still find pick-up jobs to bring in a little money.  A man with a Ph.D in Biochemistry not so much, nor even a woman with an associates in physical therapy.  They need other people to provide them with jobs to practice their 'trades'.  

Lets face it after all, the United States is regressing economically and socially.  Its the Chinese and Indians gaining the upperhand when it comes to scientific research and development.  We're still going strong, but most people should give up their hopes of high-paying jobs and accept manual labor as the norm once again.  And on that note, much as I'd hate to see it, suspending the 'minimum wage'.

I don't doubt that you keep food on the table, I don't doubt that there are degree programs that are a waste of time, and I don't doubt that most kids who stay in college for 8 years racking up debt while gaining no work experience have one hell of a wake-up call coming to them.  That being said, while there are jobs out there requiring nothing more than a HS diploma and a shitton of either experience or arcane knowledge (such as a CW5 in the .mil or a wire-head at a large company) that out-earn the average BS or MS degree holder, I'll eat my steeltoes if a custodian turned "engineer" is one of them.

In a lot of areas, PhDs are flooding the market to a far greater extent than other advanced degrees.  There are far more of them than there are jobs for them to fill at the salary which they seek.  When I was getting my Masters (history), I was informed by several history PhDs that going for one myself would not be likely to be worth the enormous time and effort involved.  So I stopped at my masters, and will likely not go further in this field.

That said, my MA definitely got me a better/more stable job in my field than I could have found with just a BA.

ETA: Full disclosure, I am taking a CC course right now in welding .  I already have decent mechanic abilities, and I figure the more practical knowledge I have, the better, no matter what my "real" job is.

If you need working experience as a PHD to get a job join the military.

If you want to do research, PhD is entry-level education.



If you want to just work in a lab as a tech (as opposed to being lead investigator or senior researcher), 2 or 4-year degree will suffice to get you started.

+1

My father told me to either go to school, or get into business.

He also told me that there aren't many rich people working for someone else.

Needless to say, we go into business and cashed out ~10 years later.

Do what all the other unemployable PhD students do –– find a post doc position :)  It's like graduate school with more pay, and more work!

Going to college != getting a PhD

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As someone with a Masters degree, I agree with that statement.  

Pick better examples.  Craigslist is slap full of "jack of all trades, will work for $10/hr", and physical therapist is consistently a top-10 in-demand job.  The US is slipping because kids don't want tech training or degrees in healthcare (from speech therapy to brain surgeon) and foriegn scientists will work for 1/2 the money.  Manual labor will never be the norm for this country again; we've lost far too much manufacturing base in the trade job arena, and in the realm of cleaning shitters or planting pine trees or cutting up chickens....lets just say nobody is supporting the concept of American citizens doing those jobs.

Better keep that job.  Because all that work is next to worthless elsewhere.



I knew a guy who didn't complete his engineering degree, knew Digital VMS pretty well.  Got siphoned off to Enron in '99.  You know the rest of the story.



 

I didn't either and I have a degree...
I worked full time while I was in college and I graduated with no debt at all and with money in the bank.  It isn't terribly difficult if you know how to save money and spend within your means...





 

I have to agree with the two posters who went to work instead of college.

I quit college after a single semester, and went to work doing manual labor. Then I learned a trade (carpentry) while getting paid to learn it, and after 1.5 years working for someone else, I started my own company. I owned my own business at 20, and after 5 years of being self-employed (and having as many as nine employees), I had amassed significantly more wealth and assets than others in my social circle. Most were just getting out of college, and had to fight tooth and nail for their first "job." Then, of course, the first thing they did after getting hired was to go out and buy new cars, expensive homes, and lots of new shit to put in that house. All of that debt was stacked on top of whatever college loans/debt they had to repay.  I laughed my way to the bank when my recent-college-grad acquaintences stuck their noses up at me at certain social events––hey, I was bringing $12+K checks in every 7-10 days, while they were barely making 15 bucks an hour with that fancy piece of paper on their wall.

At 25, I closed my business (due to the economic downturn and my own frustrations over all of the responsibilities of running a legitimate company). I went into law enforcement, and took about a 60% pay cut doing so. Even so, I was able to reorganize my assets to continue to live at near the standard of living I had previously. Many people question how I (and my wife) can be our age and afford our "dream house" and to have a new vehicle paid off, while I make a peon's salary. I tell them I worked my ass off, sacrificed, and made good financial decisions early on.

That's not to say no one should go to college and/or pursue a higher education. There are simply too many young people today who are doing so because that's what everyone's doing, or because that's what you're supposed to do. Or, because they mistakenly believe having a degree automatically entitles them to start out in a high-paying, high-level position––they don't ever think they will still have to work their way up. I definitely agree with whoever said that, "you go to college because you want to do a certain job that only a degree will allow you to do."

I also attribute the mistakes above to our educational system in general, and guidance counselors in particular. For a long time now, college has been touted as the only way to get a good job or to make good money. Also, the belief that everyone is college material. Hell, I graduated in the top 10% of my class, and I found out pretty soon I wasn't college material; I was much too hands-on. It seemed to me that high schools, counselors, and teachers projected an attitude that you were somehow inferior if you didn't go to college. Yet some of the most successful young folks I know are those who didn't go to college; they went into the workforce, learned a skill, and worked their way up.

I have no problem with people going to college, or wanting to go to college. Before committing, however, they need to do some critical thinking. I.e., ask the questions: Can I really afford college? Do I need to go to college to do the job I want to do? Is it something I can do later? Is my degree necessary (or even desirable) for my chosen career field? Am I more physical-oriented, or intellectual? Does my chosen career field pay well enough to justify the expense for college?

Perhaps that was the wrong way of putting it but you will still need to get some ketchup for your boots.  I was hired to clean up after installers(low voltage stuff) by the dad of a girlfriend I was dating at the time, was given the opportunity to show him I could do what they were doing, possibly better and 10 years later I am where I am now.  I can't make you believe my story, even people who I meet in person and tell it to don't believe me, I can never show them a degree to prove them wrong/right, but they know who I work for, what I do, and what I have to show for it.  

My son started college this year and wants to follow the old man's footsteps.  If he finishes, I'll be happy to give him my business.

I have been saying this for a very long time and have been mocked on this very site for it. Now, it has come to fruition.

I am a VERY skilled Carpenter with 18 years of experience. I can actually show you what my skill is. A good percentage of people with degrees cannot show you what their skill is, nor can they articulate it.

The college degree myth has burst.

Learn an actual skill. A small piece of paper your parents bought you after high school is not a skill.

that sounds right.

yes since there are so many loggers making 100k a year

Seems that he would have been in a good position if he got the BS/MS and then worked in industry for a few years before going back for the PhD.

people will never admit their jealousy for others with advanced degrees, plus they make all kinds of pathetic excuses.



i have my MBA and i have absolutely zero regrets...since getting it my income and career has skyrocketed.

Just wait.  All those people saying nursing is the greatest job in the world won't be singing that tune when enough of the population decides that they want to start at $20/hr with three years of school.  It'll be even worse if enough people jump on the distance learning bandwagon.

This is the most intelligent post in this thread.  I went to college and went into something I loved to do: engineering design.  Unfortunately, the real world has turned out to be a cold mistress.



In other words, yes, I have a very well paying job for a large technical company using skills I gained in school way back in the early 90's... but due to the other aspects of my work (the 85%+ that doesn't involve actually doing anything terribly useful, IMO), I don't get to spend much time doing what I love.



Now it feels like it's a bit late to start over.  Quite honestly, I'm hooked on the money.  I'm sure I could change careers and be successful at something I'd enjoy more, but I got 3 kids who need me to have a steady income.  If I help them through college, I'll be doing this (or something like it) until I'm 52 at least.



I've been telling them a lot over the last few years to look for what they have a passion for and pursue it, don't worry about the money.  Money doesn't make you happy, in fact, for a lot of folks, it becomes more of a burden - your stuff will own you rather than the other way around.  As long as you've got a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food to eat, be content.  Wish I could take my own advice...




When the kids are out from under, I will most likely quit my job and go find something I love to do.  I want to get into a position where I make enough money to live on doing a job that I WANT to do.  If this is the case, there's no need to ever really worry much about retirement.  Retirement is for folks who don't like what they do for a living (or who become disabled and simply can't work any longer).









 

dang bro, all i said was cool story bro.



 

Very well said and I agree completely.  I don't enjoy the 90 mile round trip drive to work every day but I do love what I do and I love the money that comes with it.  One day though, I hope to find something closer to home, likely making less money, but better able to spend time with my family and enjoy life.

Credit has made it easy for any schmuck to get into college, colleges are businesses,more students more money. A lot of unemployed college graduates who mortgaged themselves are now shitting in thier pants working in Taco Bell and Romano's Macaroni grill along with the schmucks who did not go to school. Industry is dead. I always laughed when I would hear some German who had a shitload of degrees who worked for minimum wage and all the engineers with foreign degrees working for Jiffy Lube. I hear a lot " I was an engineer in my country". College was exclusive only those bright enough would go, now you got graduates who cannot even spell correctly on their resume.

Engineering and Science are dead in America.

Battelle Research Lab in India

IBM Research Lab China

I could hunt more but I am going to go to bed, got work tomorrow.

Where ever manufacturing goes engineering will follow, as will science. Once the infrastructure is in place to make things there is nothing holding them back from there own designs. Plus most developing nations don't give a damn about IP so they will steal designs hand over fist. The only engineering that will be done over here will be national security related, and the hippies will kill that too.

Medicine is about to take a dirt nap too, once we get socialized medicine it will be over.

I can't wait for business, finance, and project management to move over seas too, It's only a matter of time. Why would you want an American directing your organization, look at how crippled and mismanaged American industry is.

Virginian:
I also earned my Masters in History in 2002.  I worked my way up from the shipping department as a steveador to a Quality Coordinator position within the firm that I work for.  None of my academic training really comes into play accept that I have two diplomas on the office wall.  Eventually, I will find a stopping point and begin teaching.  For now, Quality seems to pay more than teaching.

At some point all we are going to make in the USA is babies.

You make $175k in law enforcement?  What department?  I wanna sign up.