User Panel
Posted: 7/19/2010 2:29:21 PM EDT
Politico.com
July 15, 2010 Basic Training Gets An Overhaul By Jen DiMascio Starting this month, basic training is no longer what it used to be. No more screaming drill sergeants. Fewer boring PowerPoint presentations and no more mock fighting with bayonets. The first recruits are going through a drastically revamped training program — designed in response to the changes in the “millennial” generation. Over time, new grunts arriving at the Army’s basic training locations have been softer in body, mind and spirit but far more technologically savvy than previous generations and with a greater sense of purpose. But the Army was “using old methodologies to train on the battlefield,” said Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who is in charge of the overhaul. “So we had to adjust what we’re training and how we’re training it.” Army leaders were inspired by Tony Wagner’s book “The Global Achievement Gap,” which describes how the educational system isn’t producing workers prepared for the demands of corporate America. Hertling said recruits weren’t meeting the standards of the military, either, at a time when soldiers were needed for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. For starters, the military is working with just a small slice of the population, since only 25 percent of Americans between 17 and 24 are eligible to enlist; others are disqualified because they failed to graduate from high school, have a criminal record or don’t meet physical fitness standards. With the downturn in the economy, the Army has seen a boost in the quality of recruits, but it still contends with weight woes. Of those who are recruited, 54 percent of males and 43 percent of females are overweight. The obesity problem is so bad that a battalion of retired generals who belong to an advocacy group called Mission Readiness produced a report, “Too Fat to Fight,” that’s being used to help usher in a new childhood nutrition bill scheduled to be marked up this week in the House. The military winds up discharging more than 1,200 enlistees because of weight problems, the report said. “The military must then recruit and train their replacements at a cost of $50,000 for each man or woman, thus spending more than $60 million a year,” the Mission Readiness study said. “That figure pales in comparison, however, to the cost of treating the obesity-related problems of military personnel and their families under the military’s health care system, TRICARE, or the cost of treating obesity-related problems under the veterans’ health care system.” Hertling faults the educational system for pulling the plug on gym class. “It became obvious to me when talking to kids and physical education teachers,” said Hertling, who has a master’s degree in exercise physiology. “Every state in the union required physical education in 1983. Now only one does.” By the time those kids arrived at basic training, not only did they lack aerobic or physical strength, but changes in their bone mass left them vulnerable to stress fractures and broken bones, he said. “We have to account for a balance between improving fitness in the same period of time but not breaking them,” Hertling said. One of the strengths new soldiers bring to the Army is their technical prowess. But the service, stuck in classroom settings that relied on lectures and PowerPoint slides, needed to catch up. So the Army is undertaking a pilot program that issues smart phones to trainees so they can read training literature using an application on their phones and arrive at basic training already knowing some of the basics. The service is also scrapping some of the courses that no longer make sense in today’s warfare to make way for cultural training that is vital to winning hearts and minds on today’s counterinsurgency fronts. That wasn’t an easy transition, especially for some of the sergeants, Hertling said. But since the last bayonet charge was in 1951, and today’s urban environments don’t allow for a steel blade on the end of a rifle, it was time for something new. “That doesn’t come across as soldierly,” Hertling said.But “I’d rather have a course in how to get along versus another three hours on a bayonet assault course.” Basic training also includes a component on values such as integrity and loyalty, which Hertling said many recruits don’t pick up as readily as they used to. More recruits arrive having grown up with highly structured activities rather than free play, they’ve had divorced parents or overinvolved “helicopter” parents, and there’s less emphasis on competition. Values training aims to tap into recruits’ sense of wanting to make a change. The Army has also included a course called Comprehensive Soldier Fitness, which helps soldiers improve their emotional intelligence. “This is truly a generation that will opt out. They don’t quit; they just go do something else,” Hertling said. “But if trained right, these are the best soldiers imaginable.” As part of the overhaul, drill sergeants have also had to swallow a change in how they deal with recruits. Now, respect is a value the Army tries to inculcate among its leaders and its soldiers. While drill sergeants may raise their voices, they won’t be screaming and berating soldiers the way they might have in the past. “Soldiers don’t have to be remade,” Hertling said. “They just need to be polished a little bit.” |
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Did I ever mention that there were things on my end of course checklist that I'd never even heard of? Along with the dates that I'd done them?
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This. Bayonets are in no way, shape, or form archaic and shouldn't be replaced by "how to get along"...Fucking man up, grow a pair and a spine, and deal with it. |
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When does this go into effect? I don't go to basic until January and I don't want a lessened experience
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Show me where TRADOC has released this and I'll believe it. Until then its just more internet BS. |
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Show me where TRADOC has released this and I'll believe it. Until then its just more internet BS. It is actually from last Friday's Early Bird. If you google the General who is quoted you will see he is Special Assistant to the Commanding General United States Army Training and Doctrine Command who has been charged with overhauling basic training. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Show me where TRADOC has released this and I'll believe it. Until then its just more internet BS. It is actually from last Friday's Early Bird. That it is. And I would be relatively happy if my new Joes could shoot, move, and communicate. Hell, I'd settle for 2. |
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Did I ever mention that there were things on my end of course checklist that I'd never even heard of? Along with the dates that I'd done them? I know, "Now what am I signing here?" lol |
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The fitness levels of new recruits is appalling.
I'm no gym rat, nor am I a consistently an outstanding high. However, I am consistently outperforming people 15 years my junior. We might need to lengthen basic simply for PT and physiologic reasons. |
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We have to include the metrosexuals, homosexuals, trannys, lesbians, transaxles and every other transmission there is...even if they have not been invented yet. After all, inclusiveness is everything, isn't it?
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softer in body, mind and spirit but far more technologically savvy than previous generations and with a greater sense of purpose.
not even close boys and girls... don't get me wrong I respect all who serve.. But no generation will ever live up to the WW1 and WW2 societal mental toughness. We were a great nation then... now we are a fragmented and deeply divided society. I'm bettin' the author must have smoked her lunch. You can bet training will still focus on metal tasks... Although there may be some touchy-feely after lights out due to repealing DADT. Quoted:
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Did I ever mention that there were things on my end of course checklist that I'd never even heard of? Along with the dates that I'd done them? I know, "Now what am I signing here?" lol it seems my records are devoid of almost anything except the "standard" stuff... now my medical records are much more accurate record.. lol |
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Who knew I'd now feel so fortunate to have the drill Sargent garbed me by the chin straps and banged my head against the wall to make a point. |
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The fitness levels of new recruits is appalling. I'm no gym rat, nor am I a consistently an outstanding high. However, I am consistently outperforming people 15 years my junior. We might need to lengthen basic simply for PT and physiologic reasons. the problem isn't just pt in basic. i know i struggled once i got to my duty station. PT wasn't required nor organized due to the small size of the unit and irregular hours we kept. you were just expected to pass the pt test twice a year. that is unless you were an officer where someone just signed off on you. <they really didn't care if our researchers were fit or not>. with no continued motivation, and knowing full well your in a job that will never deploy it's hard to stay motivated to run everyday. i have thought for a long time the army would be better served by splitting into non combat and combat pt tests. i watched a LOT of good senior NCO's with years of experience get the boot for not completing a run in time. these were men that in no way shape or form would have ever been deployed due to their jobs and were fully capable of continuing them. We have already invested a minimum of 50k into a new recruit. over the course of 2 years you can double that with salary, benefits and training. hold them at rank and put them in support roles that keep the real warriors fighting. staying at PFC pay for 4 years will be the biggest motivation you can give them to start working out. |
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The kinder, gentler, more compassionate, understanding, tolerant Man's Liberal's Army.
How's that Hope and Change workin' for ya'? |
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Yeah...b/c the bayonet course doesn't teach any necessary skills of WARRIORS. (aside from violence of action...who needs that anymore??)
I understand we're in a COIN fight and have to be flexible...the kinetic fight is what most of us want...but good Lord...if all you train for is the people building, you'll get your clock cleaned when the kinetic battle comes to you. |
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Total fucking hidden gem in that article:
"Hertling faults the educational system for pulling the plug on gym class. “It became obvious to me when talking to kids and physical education teachers,” said Hertling, who has a master’s degree in exercise physiology. “Every state in the union required physical education in 1983. Now only one does.” By the time those kids arrived at basic training, not only did they lack aerobic or physical strength, but changes in their bone mass left them vulnerable to stress fractures and broken bones, he said. " What do gym classes all over the world have in common? There are winners, and losers. That's what. Since we can't hurt anyone's "self esteem", we get rid of gym class, then when the kids get fat, we blame it on the Food Industry and their refined food products, and agitate for laws against fatty food, and refined sugar. See a pattern here? |
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Quoted: This. Bayonets are in no way, shape, or form archaic and shouldn't be replaced by "how to get along"...Fucking man up, grow a pair and a spine, and deal with it. Correct, not US, but bayonet charges have not gone away... A bayonet charge undertaken by British soldiers against the Mahdi Army in Afghanistan in 2004 is being used by the US as an example of how to tackle insurgents. Just 20 British soldiers took on 100 insurgents, but when they started running out of ammo the British fixed bayonets and charged, screaming, at the enemy. The insurgents fled in terror, 20 of them were killed, whereas the British suffered no fatalities. US warfare experts were clearly impressed by the British soldiers. US warfare experts inspired by bayonet charge by British troops 14/04/2009 The Mirror British soldiers in Afghanistan Warfare experts in the US are using a famous bayonet charge by British troops as an example of how to tackle insurgents. They were inspired by the heroic assault by 20 members of the 16th Air Assault Brigade in Basra in May 2004. A convoy was ambushed by more than 100 members of the notorious Shia militia, the Mahdi Army. When they started to run out of ammunition the Brits fixed bayonets and charged at the enemy positions screaming. Many of the Iraqis fled the British onslaught, which left more than 20 dead. Just a handful of British soldiers were wounded and the incident is now being hailed as a major triumph for shock tactics. The Urban Warfare Analysis Center said: "The attack captured the element of surprise. Enemy fighters probably believed propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards, unwilling to fight in close combat." |
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At least the Marines aren't changing. Dear army. We will take all those uneeded Bayonts. Thanks, The Marines. |
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At least the Marines aren't changing. Dear army. We will take all those uneeded Bayonts. Thanks, The Marines. isn't that how you guys get most of your gear? |
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At least the Marines aren't changing. Dear army. We will take all those uneeded Bayonts. Thanks, The Marines. isn't that how you guys get most of your gear? It sure seems that way. And we liked it. |
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I guess they should go back to "an Army of one" now.
Semper Fi. |
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lets see, we've got a machinegun nest over there, some RPG's over there and a sniper out over there...
now, who wants to do a powerpoint and for what, so we might plan our attack, assuming of course, that we'll have volunteers to do it. (?) but that is only after we get approval from the CO. |
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At least the Marines aren't changing. Dear army. We will take all those uneeded Bayonts. Thanks, The Marines. isn't that how you guys get most of your gear? Army breaks it in, Marines break it? |
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This. Bayonets are in no way, shape, or form archaic and shouldn't be replaced by "how to get along"...Fucking man up, grow a pair and a spine, and deal with it. Correct, not US, but bayonet charges have not gone away... A bayonet charge undertaken by British soldiersagainst the Mahdi Army in Afghanistan in 2004 is being used by the USas an example of how to tackle insurgents.
Just 20 British soldiers took on 100 insurgents, butwhen they started running out of ammo the British fixed bayonets andcharged, screaming, at the enemy. The insurgents fled in terror, 20 ofthem were killed, whereas the British suffered no fatalities. US warfare experts were clearly impressed by the British soldiers. US warfare experts inspired by bayonet charge by British troops 14/04/2009 The Mirror http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_01/troopsDM0803_468x432.jpg British soldiers in Afghanistan Warfare experts in the US are using a famous bayonet charge by British troops as an example of how to tackle insurgents. They were inspired by the heroic assault by 20 members of the 16th Air Assault Brigade in Basra in May 2004. A convoy was ambushed by more than 100 members of the notorious Shiamilitia, the Mahdi Army. When they started to run out of ammunition theBrits fixed bayonets and charged at the enemy positions screaming. Many of the Iraqis fled the British onslaught, which left more than 20 dead. Just a handful of British soldiers were wounded and the incident is now being hailed as a major triumph for shock tactics. The Urban Warfare Analysis Center said: "The attack captured theelement of surprise. Enemy fighters probably believed propagandastating that coalition troops were cowards, unwilling to fight in closecombat." We routinely fixed bayonets during our urban combat throughout 2005. It was badass but I admit I was just waiting to get poked in the ass jumping out of the tracks. |
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Who knew I'd now feel so fortunate to have the drill Sargent garbed me by the chin straps and banged my head against the wall to make a point. Good. I thought I was the only one worthy of such attention. |
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Did I ever mention that there were things on my end of course checklist that I'd never even heard of? Along with the dates that I'd done them? Some shit in the Army never changes ! |
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I think I saw this awhile ago on military.com... I hope I don't get this, I don't want some wimpy help me with my feelings crap...
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What a bunch of derp.
Has anyone in the Army considered lengthening Basic by another week, rather than cutting out important skill training? Hell, add two weeks, a lot of my friends I've seen come back from Basic still couldn't shoot/manipulate a service rifle for shit or work as a team... Two of the things that strike me as "basic" in military terms. If the course is inadequate, it strikes me that you need to add more to it, not replace something that matters with something that "matters more". Further, if new recruits, who come from soft, sheltered lives (believe me, I've seen the type) aren't psychologically hardened in basic... Where will they be hardened at? On the battlefield, where half of them will simply break down? Yeah, that makes sense... Derp. I will admit though, the addition of a live-fire shoothouse course to basic has been a desperately needed addition for two decades... At least they finally got around to that (not mentioned in the article, but two friends of mine just out of basic said they did live fire exercises in a shoothouse... I was like "WTF? That's new"). |
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M9 don't fit on a M4. My oldest was the first class at Benning to be issued M4 no M9.
So I bought him one anyway. I made a bushing to fit the two. Having local ex Marine teach him how to use it. Its fucking wrong for even an 11B not to have this skill. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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We might need to lengthen basic simply for PT and physiologic reasons. If you're doing this at basic, you're way too late. This needs to be instilled into kids when they're young. We're raising a nation of fat fucks. Phys ed needs to be brought back with a vengeance. |
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This news is pathetic. Basic training hasn't been hard since the 60's and earlier.
I damn sure know it was not hard in the 70's. |
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M9 don't fit on a M4. My oldest was the first class at Benning to be issued M4 no M9. So I bought him one anyway. I made a bushing to fit the two. Having local ex Marine teach him how to use it. Its fucking wrong for even an 11B not to have this skill. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I am sure 11s, 12s, 13s and a few other MOS will still receive close combat training to include fighting with a blade. I think this is for the big army not combat arms types. The standard bayonet, be it the M7, M9 or the OKC3S Marine Bayonet fits on all the military M16 series (A1, A2, A4, M4 and M4A1) rifles other than the Mk12 and Mk18. |
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My understanding of OSUT is that the first nine weeks are BCT and the remainder is MOS specific. I don't think they revisit anything that wasn't already taught. I'll ask some guys tomorrow.
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as a purely couch commando.
why isn't there more then one type of BCT? like a combat oriented one and a support one. |
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Quoted: as a purely couch commando. why isn't there more then one type of BCT? like a combat oriented one and a support one. Because BCT is the basic level that every soldier needs to know. |
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When does this go into effect? I don't go to basic until January and I don't want a lessened experience Too late, they all ready have stress cards available. |
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as a purely couch commando. why isn't there more then one type of BCT? like a combat oriented one and a support one. when i was in there more or less was. BCT at knox wasn't that bad compared to benning from the stories i heard. we mostly had medics and supply guys in our companies. |
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If this is true, the seeds of our destruction are being sown right here, As for the large number of recruits being kicked out of basic, that's all they need, more profiles.
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I am a drill sgt and run basic training in FT Benning. I do 11B OSUT basic. We did not do the Bayonet Assault course in Drill Sgt School and we dont necessarily teach it to the privates either. We do a crash course of all the basic attacks and defenses and let the privates get loud and motivated doing that. Then we go to pugils and let the privates do practical application with someone hitting them back. Running through the woods swinging an M16 with a knife on the end and breaking equipment that is already hard to get for basic trainees is ridiculous. It doesnt teach anything except violence of action, and we can teach that during pugils.
Sure I did the bayonet assault course as a private in 2004, and yes i did fix bayonets during a riot in Baghdad in 2006. What i learned during the bayonet assault course was the last thing on my mind when practical application came. What I did in the rubber pit during pugils was at the front of my mind and I was ready to charge like a maniac and slice and dice the first iraqi i got within arms reach of. Dont believe everything you read from some general in charge of whatever. The army has been phasing out alot of stuff over time and adding different things...but drill sgts do still scream and yell, however we know where these kids are going in a few short weeks so we back off and actually teach them some technique and try to give them additional skills. sorry this looks like a 4th grader wrote it. I am eating dinner and watching tv at the same time mike edit....Stress cards are a myth and a ridiculous one at that...i wish people would stop regurgitation things they know nothing about |
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Today, bayonet charges break the enemy's will to fight. I, for one am glad I learned to fight with all of my rifle; but than again I am a Marine!
Now, getting back to the core of the article, if need be, basic should be extended on a case by case basis to deal with weight and physical conditioning problems. We had it back in the day and it worked. There was the Physical Conditioning Platoon (PCP) to deal with the 98 lbs weaklings and the fat bodies. It worked then and it would work now. By having a PCP it would also greatly increase the numbers necessary to defend the country. |
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