Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 3/5/2010 12:37:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 12:38:11 AM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
LINK

When is enough...ENOUGH?What Ever Happened to States Rights??

If it were not bad enough they now have control over many banks and financial firms through "Bail-outs" and the Auto Industry for control through the Unions..Now it looks like huge parcels of lands are on the radar for take over...Some of America's richest area for natural resources is on the seizure list for the ELITE.

Of course it is in the name of conservation so that makes it OK,Right?..

I mean we can't have Lizards going extinct like the dinosaurs, can we?Also,we know that wild chickens need to be pressure free from humans while grazing the open plains and that is WAY more important than keeping people employed or more urgent than developing alternative means of energy in these areas.

Is there anything done with the United States Constitution in mind anymore?...This may not seem like a big deal to some...However,think about it in the long run when the federal government owns 90% of all the land..Look at Alaska and ANWR then thank those like Jimmy Carter when we can't drill for oil in our own damn country..

By Sen. Jim DeMint

You'd think the Obama administration is busy enough controlling the banks, insurance companies and automakers, but thanks to whistle blowers at the Department of the Interior, we now learn they're planning to increase their control over energy-rich land in the West.

A secret administration memo has surfaced revealing plans for the federal government to seize more than 10 million acres from Montana to New Mexico, halting job- creating activities like ranching, forestry, mining and energy development. Worse, this land grab would dry up tax revenue that's essential for funding schools, firehouses and community centers.

President Obama could enact the plans in this memo with just the stroke of a pen, without any input from the communities affected by it.

At a time when our national unemployment rate is 9.7 percent, it is unbelievable anyone would be looking to stop job-creating energy enterprises, yet that's exactly what's happening.

The document lists 14 properties that, according to the document, "might be good candidates" for Mr. Obama to nab through presidential proclamation. Apparently, Washington bureaucrats believe it's more important to preserve grass and rocks for birdwatchers and backpackers than to keep these local economies thriving.

Administration officials claim the document is merely the product of a brainstorming session, but anyone who reads this memo can see that it is a wish list for the environmentalist left. It discusses, in detail, what kinds of animal populations would benefit from limiting human activity in those areas.

The 21-page document, marked "Internal Draft-NOT FOR RELEASE," names 14 different lands Mr. Obama could completely close for development by unilaterally designating them as "monuments" under the 1906 Antiquities Act.

It says all kinds of animals would be better off by doing so, like the coyotes, badgers, grouse, chickens and lizards. But giving the chickens more room to roost is no reason for the government to override states' rights.

Rep. Robert Bishop, Utah Republican, made the memo public because he didn't want another unilateral land grab by the White House, like what happened under former Presidents Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter.

Using the Antiquities Act, President Carter locked up more land than any other president had before him, taking more than 50 million acres in Alaska despite strong opposition from the state.

President Clinton used the authority 22 times to prohibit hunting, recreational vehicles, mining, forestry and even grazing in 5.9 million acres scattered around the country. The law allowed him to single-handedly create 19 new national monuments and expand three others without consulting anyone.

One of the monuments President Clinton created was the Grande Staircase-Escalante in Utah, where 135,000 acres of land were leased for oil and gas and about 65,000 barrels of oil were produced each year from five active wells. But, President Clinton put an end to developing those resources.

President Obama could do the same in other energy-rich places unless Congress takes action. At least 13.5 million acres are already on his Department of Interior's real estate shopping list.

This includes a 58,000-acre area in New Mexico. The memo said this should be done so the lesser prairie chicken and the sand dune lizard will be better protected. Are these animals going extinct? No. The bureaucrats wrote that the land should be locked up to "avoid the necessity of listing either of these species as threatened or endangered."

In Nevada, the Obama administration might make another monument in the Heart of the Great Basin because it, supposedly, is a "center of climate change scientific research."

In Colorado, the government is considering designating the Vermillion Basin as a monument because it is "currently under the threat of oil and gas development."

Americans should be wary of any plans a president has to seize land from the states without their consent. Any new plans to take away states' freedom to use land as they see fit must be stopped.

That's why I sponsored an amendment to block Mr. Obama from declaring any of the 14 lands listed in the memo as "monuments." Unfortunately, the Senate, led by Democrats, rejected it on Thursday evening by a vote of 58-38.

It was particularly disappointing that the Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, of Nevada, voted against the amendment. The government owns more than 80 percent of the land in Nevada and the unemployment rate there is 12.8 percent. Surely it would help job prospects if more land were open for business.

This is a nationwide problem. The government currently owns 650 million acres, or 29 percent of the nation's total land.

Federal bureaucrats shouldn't be wasting time thinking up ways to acquire more, especially in the middle of a recession. Taking the nation's resources offline will stifle job creation and dry up tax revenues.

If anything, the government should be selling land off, not locking more up. By voting against my amendment, the Democrats tacitly endorsed Mr. Obama's secret plan to close off millions more acres to commerce.

If enacted, the plan would mean fewer jobs for Americans.

The Democratic Congress refused to stop it, but one sure way Americans could help block it is if they decide some Democrats should lose their jobs on November.


I have said that it wouldn't be very long there would be payoff's to China for our debt..Who wants to make a bet that this isn't where some of the land deeds go???
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:39:08 AM EDT
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....

→Drilling

2 from Kansas firm guilty in Pa. brine dumping

February 16, 2010|By JOE MANDAK, Associated Press Writer
2010-02-16 10:18:00 PST Pittsburgh, PA 15122, United States — (02-16) 10:18 PST Pittsburgh, PA (AP) ––

Two men from a Kansas oil-drilling firm pleaded guilty Tuesday to illegally dumping 200,000 gallons of brine water down an abandoned well in Pennsylvania's only national forest.

The pollution by Swamp Angel LLC in the Allegheny National Forest could contaminate groundwater and streams, but authorities have not linked any water damage conclusively to the pollution, acting U.S. Attorney Robert Cessar said.

The pleas before a federal judge in Erie should send a signal to oil and gas drillers to properly dispose of brine, a saltwater byproduct of the drilling process that sometimes also contains metals, Cessar said.
"These guys were drilling oil wells, produced this brine water and decided they weren't going to pay for its disposal," Cessar said. "This is the result of them getting caught. That's the case in a nutshell."

The Wichita-based company's part-owner, 66-year-old Michael Evans, of La Quinta, Calif., and the company's site supervisor, 54-year-old John Morgan, of Sheffield, Pa., each pleaded guilty to felony violations of the federal Safe Drinking Water Act.

Under the law, brine must either be hauled away and treated at a sewage treatment plant or dumped into an abandoned well, provided permits are obtained. Permits weren't obtained in this case, but are required to ensure measures are taken so the water won't leach into the ground and pollute groundwater and nearby streams, Cessar said.

Cessar said he didn't know how much it would have cost Swamp Angel to have disposed of the water properly.

As part of Tuesday's plea agreements, the company is also paying about $20,000 to reimburse the U.S. Forest Service for the unrelated clean up of some metal drums and other materials left behind by drilling, Cessar said. The company also will hire an independent contractor to audit its work, come up with a waste-disposal plan and develop an orientation for employees on environmental matters, Cessar said.

Defense attorney Matthew Wolford, who represents Morgan, declined to comment. Philip Friedman, who represents Evans, did not immediately return a call for comment.

Cessar said the brine was dumped in a section of the forest in McKean County from April 2007 through January 2008.

The 800-square-mile forest in northwestern Pennsylvania has been the focal point of legal battles between environmentalists, who want to stop drilling, and the Forest Service, which aims to allow it but limit its environmental impact.

Cessar said brine disposal figures to become a larger issue due to the expected growth of natural gas wells — which also result in brine — in Pennsylvania.

"These producers have to get the message they cannot do this. This is a public health risk," Cessar said. "This is about public safety."

Evans and Morgan each face up to three years in prison and $250,000 in fines when they're sentenced June 24.



Link Posted: 3/5/2010 11:34:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 11:37:46 AM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 11:39:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


You are both sensitive and deluded.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 11:55:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 11:56:22 AM EDT by Myke]
(JIP) Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....


→Drilling
2 from Kansas firm guilty in Pa. brine dumping
February 16, 2010|By JOE MANDAK, Associated Press Writer
2010-02-16 10:18:00 PST Pittsburgh, PA 15122, United States — (02-16) 10:18 PST Pittsburgh, PA (AP) ––



Two men from a Kansas oil-drilling firm pleaded guilty Tuesday to illegally dumping 200,000 gallons of brine water down an abandoned well in Pennsylvania's only national forest.

Under the law, brine must either be hauled away and treated at a sewage treatment plant or dumped into an abandoned well, provided permits are obtained. Permits weren't obtained in this case, but are required to ensure measures are taken so the water won't leach into the ground and pollute groundwater and nearby streams, Cessar said.


Damn them for not doing the right thing and paying Uncle Scrooge before doing EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.

Kinda see some of your point though, next time one company screws up we'll have Big O grab 20 million acres. Sooner or later they'll stop messin with the king's lands.



Link Posted: 3/5/2010 12:50:41 PM EDT
I think the issues is one of moving land from one part of a federal agency to another. BLM land is usually leased out, while land within the Park system is not.

Not saying this does not suck, but I don't think this is an eminent domain issue. God Bless Texas - we have no BLM land and almost no Federal Park land - what public land their is is almost all State owned.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 12:58:19 PM EDT
By the time enough people wake up, it will be too late.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:19:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..
Yeah I mean what an asshole Clinton was for protecting this:





From the extractive industry. That river would surely look better with some mine waste in it and I am sure there are some minerals somewhere in there. By the way the images are from The Grand Staircase Escalante Nat Monument that Slick Willie did his "Lang grab" on and I know we have suffered for that...

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:28:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
I have said that it wouldn't be very long there would be payoff's to China for our debt..Who wants to make a bet that this isn't where some of the land deeds go???

Seriously dude. You're going straight for the tinfoil bullshit? No subtle lead in, just immediately to the paranoid conspiracy theories? And in extra big font?

There seems to be a willful misunderstanding on the part of the good Senator from South Carolina whose opinion piece you cited. He doesn't say that these are already federal lands, instead implying that Obama will just designate somebody's ranch as a national monument. I guess he's trying to whip up hysteria among dumbass easterners who've never been west of the Mississippi. I for one like the fact that there are federal lands, but I'm a Westerner, born and raised.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:30:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


Were you absent the day they handed out IQs?
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:36:02 PM EDT


I have said that it wouldn't be very long there would be payoff's to China for our debt..Who wants to make a bet that this isn't where some of the land deeds go???


Um....I'll take that bet, but I won't accept tin foil as payment when I win

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:36:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIP:

Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..
Yeah I mean what an asshole Clinton was for protecting this:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/grand-staircase.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/calf_creek10.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/GrandStaircase-Escalante.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/ESCALANTE-NM-SUNRISE.jpg

From the extractive industry. That river would surely look better with some mine waste in it and I am sure there are some minerals somewhere in there. By the way the images are from The Grand Staircase Escalante Nat Monument that Slick Willie did his "Lang grab" on and I know we have suffered for that...



It would definitly look better with some oil rigs. I like oil rigs.

Some mining tunnels and shafts would add to it as well.

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:38:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cathan91:
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


Were you absent the day they handed out IQs?


The ones with the low IQs are the ones who want to stop drilling and mining because it messes up their backpacking or wildlife watching experience.

Drill, baby, drill.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 4:48:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....

Hmmm seize the land so it can't be used at all before any crime is committed, just assume one will be committed...
or, put violators in prison?...
Which seams more reasonable to me?... think I'd go with the latter choice but I'm just crazy like that...


Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:01:53 PM EDT
Nope not really it's just about protecting the land for EVERYONE to enjoy....
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:09:40 PM EDT
You guys are amateur tin-foilers.

The .gov is taking the land so they can build the NAFTA highway. You know, the one that has no on/off ramps except in certain points where goods are offloaded from the Mexican trucks.

THAT's tinfoil.

TC
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:18:49 PM EDT
they don't always take the land for what is on the surface. they take it for what is underneath. democrats talk big about getting us off foreign oil yet do all they can to keep us on it.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:20:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AA717driver:
You guys are amateur tin-foilers.

The .gov is taking the land so they can build the NAFTA highway. You know, the one that has no on/off ramps except in certain points where goods are offloaded from the Mexican trucks.

THAT's tinfoil.

TC


are we going there again ?

the tinfoil of yesterday is the headlines of today .
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:24:37 PM EDT
Wait a minute...There might be legal precedent... Of course, Land snatching...

"grabs law book"

Land, Land... Land: See Snatch.

Ah, Haley vs. United States. Haley: 7, United States: nothing. You see, it can be done!
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:27:22 PM EDT
The problem with the Fed's designating new National Monuments and such is that they lock up land, and put new regulations on it.... where some of this land has been used by the locals for YEARS for various activities.

Supposed you lived in southern Utah, before Bill Clinton created the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. Suppose you had a favorite shooting spot in that area, and BJ Billy decieded to make that area a National Monument, without consulting the local, county, or state government about it? Now you can't shoot at your favorite shooting spot.... (untill recently, you couldn't even carry your otherwise legal firearm there). The local, county, and state government has little control over how that land is used, for what purposes, and now they have to ask the Feds for permission to do things that were once THEIR business, in their backyard.

IMHO... locals should have some say in what is done in their backyards.

Some places DO need protection, but I'd be pissed if they decided all the BLM land in Utah was suddenly a "national monument" or "national park" and suddenly my access to those lands for my traditional uses (ATV/motorcycle riding, fishing, hunting, shooting, camping, ranching, mining etc etc etc.... ) was suddenly regulated by some asshole in leather chair in Washington DC.

There are two sides to every issue.... and sometimes even more than two.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:42:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah I mean what an asshole Clinton was for protecting this:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/grand-staircase.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/calf_creek10.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/GrandStaircase-Escalante.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/ESCALANTE-NM-SUNRISE.jpg

From the extractive industry. That river would surely look better with some mine waste in it and I am sure there are some minerals somewhere in there. By the way the images are from The Grand Staircase Escalante Nat Monument that Slick Willie did his "Lang grab" on and I know we have suffered for that...


No. Clinton was an asshole for doing it behind my states back. He didn't even have the balls to sign the paper that created it IN UTAH.... he went to AZ to do it instead. Having been there.... yes its beautiful. Yes, it probably deserved protection. No, I don't like the feds sticking their noses where they don't belong. No, I don't like the idea of locking up more of OUR states natural rescorces for the sake of satisfying some liberal voting block (the same greenies that brought you the Global Warming farce). Utah has suffered, in that we lose any future money that could be earned from gas or minerals under those lands. It directly effects our states income... our states public schools, and mostly... the local communities near the new Monument.

I'd like to have seen more inclusion of the state, county, and local government in planning the creation of GS-E NM.


Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:44:00 PM EDT
At least the Mexican drug cartels will have more land to farm drugs on now. FUCK OBAMA
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:52:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah I mean what an asshole Clinton was for protecting this:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/grand-staircase.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/calf_creek10.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/GrandStaircase-Escalante.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/ESCALANTE-NM-SUNRISE.jpg

From the extractive industry. That river would surely look better with some mine waste in it and I am sure there are some minerals somewhere in there. By the way the images are from The Grand Staircase Escalante Nat Monument that Slick Willie did his "Lang grab" on and I know we have suffered for that...


No. Clinton was an asshole for doing it behind my states back. He didn't even have the balls to sign the paper that created it IN UTAH.... he went to AZ to do it instead. Having been there.... yes its beautiful. Yes, it probably deserved protection. No, I don't like the feds sticking their noses where they don't belong. No, I don't like the idea of locking up more of OUR states natural rescorces for the sake of satisfying some liberal voting block (the same greenies that brought you the Global Warming farce). Utah has suffered, in that we lose any future money that could be earned from gas or minerals under those lands. It directly effects our states income... our states public schools, and mostly... the local communities near the new Monument.

I'd like to have seen more inclusion of the state, county, and local government in planning the creation of GS-E NM.


The simple fact that states want to bee free to exploit every inch of land they possibly can is exactly the reason the fed. should protect it. States looking for revenue for short-term gain will do whatever it takes just look at the Democratic West Virginia. If it wasn't for the Monongahela National forest I would imagine every inch of that state would be a mountain top removal mine.

On a side note I am not a fan of Clinton but he has got to be the only man in history that people see it as a negative that he got a BJ.

Link Posted: 3/5/2010 5:55:49 PM EDT
WHY CAN'T I GRAB 10 MILLION ACRES?

REASON: I AM NOT A DICTATOR.
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 10:29:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2010 10:30:58 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


You are both sensitive and deluded.


Sensitive about our federal government going feral,Yes!..


Deluded..I think I have a handle on knowing just how far "Power" will cause many to go..

The only thing I am deluded about is the fact how the feds can seize lands that have been used
since the beginning of our nation by LOCALS for jobs and revenue..

If they take this..They will take more and more and more..until there is none left for states to procure and use as needed or set aside for LOCALS and the State governments to decide what to do with
THEIR lands..

When was the last time you saw a "So-Called Conservative-(R)"..Grab lands like this with the full intent being to restrict access in the name of conservation like Carter,Clinton and now Obama?

I say these lands are the people's of the particular States involved.. to do with what is needed..and if that is strip mining for progress or drilling for oil to reduce dependence..So be it..

Now they are in danger of being LOCKED for anything but hippies and grazing chickens..
Link Posted: 3/5/2010 10:44:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cathan91:
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


Were you absent the day they handed out IQs?


That west coast liberal shit is just more of the same

I suppose I was absent when they "GAVE IQ's..I may have been at work..

Unlike yourself..I decide not to stand in line waiting with my hand out..Regardless if it is IQ's or Land that does not belong to the Federal Govt..But the States!

These lands should be left in the hands of the States or public land trusts and private individuals...Not the D.C. bureaucrats to decide if there should be any access (unless it is for tree hugging nature freaks who like to take pretty pictures of migrating chickens..)

Link Posted: 3/6/2010 10:28:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2010 10:29:53 AM EDT by JIP]

Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..


You are both sensitive and deluded.


Sensitive about our federal government going feral,Yes!..


Deluded..I think I have a handle on knowing just how far "Power" will cause many to go..

The only thing I am deluded about is the fact how the feds can seize lands that have been used
since the beginning of our nation by LOCALS for jobs and revenue..

If they take this..They will take more and more and more..until there is none left for states to procure and use as needed or set aside for LOCALS and the State governments to decide what to do with
THEIR lands..

When was the last time you saw a "So-Called Conservative-(R)"..Grab lands like this with the full intent being to restrict access in the name of conservation like Carter,Clinton and now Obama?

I say these lands are the people's of the particular States involved.. to do with what is needed..and if that is strip mining for progress or drilling for oil to reduce dependence..So be it..

Now they are in danger of being LOCKED for anything but hippies and grazing chickens..

Really?? "Hippies and Grazikng chickens"?? Do the chickens hunt or drive 4WD??

From the GSE site....



Information courtesy of the National Park Service

The Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument is partly named for the Escalante River, which flows from Boulder Mountain to the Colorado River. Deep canyons and gorges have been carved over eons of time. These sandstone labyinths with unusual rock shapes and slot canyons offer some of the best hiking and backpacking in the world.

When early geologist saw the series of cliffs and plateaus rising 6,000 feet from the Colorado River at the Grand Canyon to Bryce Canyon, they called it the Grand Staircase. Three billion years of geologic history make up the layers of sedimentary rocks. Each of the five "steps" has been eroded, revealing cliffs of distinctive color. Travelers can see the Grand Staircase from some of the viewpoints in Bryce Canyon.

The new monument by Presidential Proclamation is a natural treasure of minerals, wildlife and plant life. It was home to the Anasazi Indians and remains of their civilization are scattered throughout the area. (Be sure to stop at the Anasazi Indian Village State Park in Boulder and tour the museum and exhibits). It is a place of breathtaking vistas, desert flowers, canyons and plateaus, and scenery that changes with every turn. It is a place of solitude. It is also a recreational paradise for outdoors enthusiasts offering hiking, backpacking, fishing, camping, horseback riding, ATV riding and mountain biking. Guided hikes and pack trips are available locally, as well as horseback riding, ATV, llama, and Jeep tours.

The Bureau of Land Management manages the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. When planning to visit the monument, travelers should contact the Interagency Office in Escalante (801-826-4291). Current information on the monument, road conditions, maps, and hiking information is available.

You can access the Monument through two main avenues of travel. Visitors are enchanted by beautiful Scenic Highway 12 in the northern portion of the Monument. In the southern portion, Highway 89 between Kanab, Utah and Page, Arizona offers spectacular vistas of the vermilion cliffs layer of the Grand Staircase geologic feature.

Other roads that are partially surfaced include the Burr Trail (to Capitol Reef National Park) and Johnson Canyon (to the Skutumpah turn off). Gravel roads include the Glendale Bench road and a portion of Hole-in-the-Rock road. Driving conditions on sandy and clay roads, such as cottonwood (connecting Kodachrome State Park with Highway 89), Smoky Mountain, Skutumpah, and Croton depend on weather and current maintenance status. Please check current road conditions before traveling on these routs.

Hiking:

Perhaps the best way to experience the diverse terrain of the Monument is to walk through it. Even though developed trails are nearly nonexistent, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of miles of outstanding hiking routs found in the Escalante Canyons, the upper Paria drainage, and other areas. Spring (March through May) and Fall (September through October) are usually the ideal times to hike or backpack. A good map and route finding abilities are a must. Self-register at established trailheads or obtain a free backpacking permit at the Interagency Office if backpacking in the Escalante region. Please leave no trace of your passing.

Scenic Drives:

Many of the principal roads to and through the Monument have been designated scenic backways. Highway 12 is widely recognized as one of the most scenic drives in the United States. Highway 89, along the southern boundary of the Monument between Kanab and Big Water offers outstanding views of the Vermilion Cliffs and the Kaiparowits Plateau. Six designated Back Country Backways along more primitive secondary roads provide an off-the-beaten-path adventure into the Monument.

Camping:
Two small, modestly developed campgrounds are open year-round on a first-come, first-served basis in the Monument. Calf Creek (13 sites) next to Highway 12 and Deer Creek (5 sites) along the Burr Trail have picnic tables, grills, and toilets. Water is available spring through fall at Calf Creek only. Nearby state parks, national forests, and commercial campgrounds in neighboring communities provide additional campground options. Backcountry camping at undeveloped campsites is allowed at certain areas of the Monument. Please observe minimum impact camping techniques to preserve the land. Camp at previously used sites, cook with a camp stove rather than an open fire, and locate your camp at least 300 feet from springs and other scant water sources. Proper disposal of human waste and packing out what you pack in will help to keep the backcountry clean.
Mountain Biking:
Several secondary roads such as the Hole-in-the-Rock road, Burr Trail, Cottonwood Canyon, the Wolverine Loop, and the Paria Valley roads offer good mountain biking routs, both long and short. Please do not ride cross-country or alone, and take the same precautions as if you were hiking.
Hunting & Fishing:
Hunting and fishing are traditional uses of the Monument's lands and they will remain so under the management of the State of Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. Please inquire locally for seasons, licenses, and other regulations.
4WD Roads:
An extensive network of primitive 4WD vehicle routs provides access to much of the Monuments backcountry. Please stay on established routes. Some roads may be closed for the protection of resources: please obey these closures. Respect private property and lands: leave gates open or closed as you find them.
Preserve The Past:
Whether you drive or hike the backcountry, please remember that, long before the arrival of Europeans, people have lived over much of the Southwest. Signs of these ancient cultures are found within the Monument in the form of ruins, petroglyphs, and potsherds. To the native peoples of the Southwest these sites have significance. Admire the ruins if you come across one, marvel at those long-gone people who lived in an often inhospitable environment, ponder our common humanity - but leave everything where it is. To do otherwise is not only disrespectful but it is also against the law.

Guided Trips:
Given the remote, undeveloped nature of the Monument, guided adventures led by seasoned professional outfitters may be the best way for many to experience the Grand Staircase-Escalante. Many types of tours and activities, including hunting and fishing, bicycle treks, vehicle tours, and backcountry hiking trips, are offered by local outfitters and guides. A list of professional guides is provided on our activities page.





"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.
Link Posted: 3/6/2010 10:57:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JIP:


"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.

What makes you think the locals cant decide what industries and activities should be allowed? They handled these lands FINE, for years before the feds stepped in. Sounds like you like a more powerful Federal goverment... not a less powerful one. Do you really think the locals would allow their beautiful backyard to be come a stripmine? I'm sure you enjoy having lights in your house, and power for your computer. That power has to come from somewhere, my friend. Most of the power generated in the USA is from coal. Like it or not. Same goes for natural gas and oil. They all have to come from someones backyard.

There is a happy medium to be met. The Feds virtually seizing land for new parks, does not equate to a happy medium. I would prefer the local people, who love and live on the land, be given a voice in the discussion. They have a larger stake in what happens than anyone else. It's their home. I think that's only fair. Don't you?


Link Posted: 3/6/2010 1:12:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By JIP:


"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.

What makes you think the locals cant decide what industries and activities should be allowed? They handled these lands FINE, for years before the feds stepped in. Sounds like you like a more powerful Federal goverment... not a less powerful one. Do you really think the locals would allow their beautiful backyard to be come a stripmine? I'm sure you enjoy having lights in your house, and power for your computer. That power has to come from somewhere, my friend. Most of the power generated in the USA is from coal. Like it or not. Same goes for natural gas and oil. They all have to come from someones backyard.

There is a happy medium to be met. The Feds virtually seizing land for new parks, does not equate to a happy medium. I would prefer the local people, who love and live on the land, be given a voice in the discussion. They have a larger stake in what happens than anyone else. It's their home. I think that's only fair. Don't you?



I am sure that none of the locals want any of the land in their areas despoiled if it was that simple this would not happen. The people that allow areas to be raped are local politicians who care more about the next election than preserving multi-use land for generations of hunters, hikers, 4WDrs and, more. Look at WV for example you have 2 LONG term senators who bring home tons of bacon and a lot of it is by allowing the coal industry to rape the land all around them. This might sound like a great idea but there are a lot of former coal families whose homes are being destroyed and despoiled by flood waters from mountain top removal mining or whole areas are being wrecked by fly-ash ponds letting go and sweeping neighborhoods with it.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:02:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIP:

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By JIP:


"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.

What makes you think the locals cant decide what industries and activities should be allowed? They handled these lands FINE, for years before the feds stepped in. Sounds like you like a more powerful Federal goverment... not a less powerful one. Do you really think the locals would allow their beautiful backyard to be come a stripmine? I'm sure you enjoy having lights in your house, and power for your computer. That power has to come from somewhere, my friend. Most of the power generated in the USA is from coal. Like it or not. Same goes for natural gas and oil. They all have to come from someones backyard.

There is a happy medium to be met. The Feds virtually seizing land for new parks, does not equate to a happy medium. I would prefer the local people, who love and live on the land, be given a voice in the discussion. They have a larger stake in what happens than anyone else. It's their home. I think that's only fair. Don't you?



I am sure that none of the locals want any of the land in their areas despoiled if it was that simple this would not happen. The people that allow areas to be raped are local politicians who care more about the next election than preserving multi-use land for generations of hunters, hikers, 4WDrs and, more. Look at WV for example you have 2 LONG term senators who bring home tons of bacon and a lot of it is by allowing the coal industry to rape the land all around them. This might sound like a great idea but there are a lot of former coal families whose homes are being destroyed and despoiled by flood waters from mountain top removal mining or whole areas are being wrecked by fly-ash ponds letting go and sweeping neighborhoods with it.


You have no argument because it is a known..You are,in fact, a leftist who loves big government involvement in any and everything ..

And please don't get on a high horse about political corruption in your attempt to point fingers at State government...Everyone knows that US Congress is just so squeaky clean...Right?

At least with the State government the politicians remain in that state and the accountability factor is just a little more..."Close to home"

I am one who enjoys these "set aside" lands of which you speak..But this is typical Jim-Bo Carter...

Say what you want but it STINKS!...

STINKS

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:11:45 PM EDT
Utah is going to use eminent domain to take federal land back.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=37&t=400060
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:15:44 PM EDT
if i was a state i would use eminent domain to grab unproductive land from the govt and make it productive.

im not talking about puting paper mills in national parks here. there is lots of land which the fed is just sitting on (im pretty sure they own a vast amount of utah) and the govt can take it and use it for so many things. if they create one private sector job that would be more than the fed can seem to do....i said PRIVATE sector, que "i see what you did there"
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:19:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2010 6:27:25 PM EDT by CELTICWARRIOR67]
Originally Posted By JimsZR2:
Wait a minute...There might be legal precedent... Of course, Land snatching...

"grabs law book"

Land, Land... Land: See Snatch.

Ah, Haley vs. United States. Haley: 7, United States: nothing. You see, it can be done!


i'll have to look into this.

wait, seven to nothing? i thought there were nine justices... well more if you ask FDR.








i keed i keed
i have taken a couple const law classes

edt: oh its been years since i have read law, got anything in english?
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:58:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIP:

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By JIP:


"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.

What makes you think the locals cant decide what industries and activities should be allowed? They handled these lands FINE, for years before the feds stepped in. Sounds like you like a more powerful Federal goverment... not a less powerful one. Do you really think the locals would allow their beautiful backyard to be come a stripmine? I'm sure you enjoy having lights in your house, and power for your computer. That power has to come from somewhere, my friend. Most of the power generated in the USA is from coal. Like it or not. Same goes for natural gas and oil. They all have to come from someones backyard.

There is a happy medium to be met. The Feds virtually seizing land for new parks, does not equate to a happy medium. I would prefer the local people, who love and live on the land, be given a voice in the discussion. They have a larger stake in what happens than anyone else. It's their home. I think that's only fair. Don't you?



I am sure that none of the locals want any of the land in their areas despoiled if it was that simple this would not happen. The people that allow areas to be raped are local politicians who care more about the next election than preserving multi-use land for generations of hunters, hikers, 4WDrs and, more. Look at WV for example you have 2 LONG term senators who bring home tons of bacon and a lot of it is by allowing the coal industry to rape the land all around them. This might sound like a great idea but there are a lot of former coal families whose homes are being destroyed and despoiled by flood waters from mountain top removal mining or whole areas are being wrecked by fly-ash ponds letting go and sweeping neighborhoods with it.


I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Kane and Garfield Counties. But the families that have lived and worked that land for years pretty much got fucked on this deal. Their communities are dying their kids are leaving. They took it with a good attitude and figured they'd convert over to dealing with tourists. But the tourism never built up as promised and they're being forced out of their grazing permits. Besides lots of roads were closed and it's a tough job to get in to service springs and check on cows in that country when you can't drive to them. Do what you want in PA and stay right the fuck out of Utah. When you destroy a man's livelihood and his family that's a violence that you can't diminish. When his children leave to go to the city there that means they are 5 or more hours from the family home. Grandchildren grow up without grandparents. Children cannot return to live in the place where they grew up and the old people either die alone or are forced to go live in an alien world. We're talking about some of the most remote country in the lower 48. If you've been there you enjoyed the privilege of enjoying these people's back yard. Their families suffered and pursued their happiness there for generations. They were deprived of luxuries long after the rest of the country got ahead but for them it was worth the hardship to live and work in such a beautiful place. They wanted that life and that privilege for their progeny but you're cheering the federal government screwing them out of it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless the east coasters think you're a ignorant hick from Escalante.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:43:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By artemisia:
Originally Posted By JIP:

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By JIP:


"Land grabs" like these are ways of preserving natural places from developers and extractive industry. It is not wrong to protect a few natural places for the enjoyment of the people rather than exploitation by extractive industry and creation of more private resorts and properties that keep MOST of us out.

What makes you think the locals cant decide what industries and activities should be allowed? They handled these lands FINE, for years before the feds stepped in. Sounds like you like a more powerful Federal goverment... not a less powerful one. Do you really think the locals would allow their beautiful backyard to be come a stripmine? I'm sure you enjoy having lights in your house, and power for your computer. That power has to come from somewhere, my friend. Most of the power generated in the USA is from coal. Like it or not. Same goes for natural gas and oil. They all have to come from someones backyard.

There is a happy medium to be met. The Feds virtually seizing land for new parks, does not equate to a happy medium. I would prefer the local people, who love and live on the land, be given a voice in the discussion. They have a larger stake in what happens than anyone else. It's their home. I think that's only fair. Don't you?



I am sure that none of the locals want any of the land in their areas despoiled if it was that simple this would not happen. The people that allow areas to be raped are local politicians who care more about the next election than preserving multi-use land for generations of hunters, hikers, 4WDrs and, more. Look at WV for example you have 2 LONG term senators who bring home tons of bacon and a lot of it is by allowing the coal industry to rape the land all around them. This might sound like a great idea but there are a lot of former coal families whose homes are being destroyed and despoiled by flood waters from mountain top removal mining or whole areas are being wrecked by fly-ash ponds letting go and sweeping neighborhoods with it.


I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Kane and Garfield Counties. But the families that have lived and worked that land for years pretty much got fucked on this deal. Their communities are dying their kids are leaving. They took it with a good attitude and figured they'd convert over to dealing with tourists. But the tourism never built up as promised and they're being forced out of their grazing permits. Besides lots of roads were closed and it's a tough job to get in to service springs and check on cows in that country when you can't drive to them. Do what you want in PA and stay right the fuck out of Utah. When you destroy a man's livelihood and his family that's a violence that you can't diminish. When his children leave to go to the city there that means they are 5 or more hours from the family home. Grandchildren grow up without grandparents. Children cannot return to live in the place where they grew up and the old people either die alone or are forced to go live in an alien world. We're talking about some of the most remote country in the lower 48. If you've been there you enjoyed the privilege of enjoying these people's back yard. Their families suffered and pursued their happiness there for generations. They were deprived of luxuries long after the rest of the country got ahead but for them it was worth the hardship to live and work in such a beautiful place. They wanted that life and that privilege for their progeny but you're cheering the federal government screwing them out of it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless the east coasters think you're a ignorant hick from Escalante.

Well I am sorry if I do not know the total politics of the region but I do know that the thing that drew me to spend probably $6-$8,000 this summer between Moab, Torrey, Bryce area and, stops in between was the draw of Capitol Reef, Grand Staircase and, Bryce. I am not accusing anyone of being an ingnorant anything but some places do need to be protected. There are more and more people out there just like you and the ones you mention who are living off the land that gets passed from generation to generation that are getting rolled over by the extractive industry. I know it sucks when it seems like outsiders are changing things but be glad it is the .gov protecting the land and not oil and gas despoiling wells and dumping waste all over the place and destroying it.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:46:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By artemisia:

I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Kane and Garfield Counties. But the families that have lived and worked that land for years pretty much got fucked on this deal. Their communities are dying their kids are leaving. They took it with a good attitude and figured they'd convert over to dealing with tourists. But the tourism never built up as promised and they're being forced out of their grazing permits. Besides lots of roads were closed and it's a tough job to get in to service springs and check on cows in that country when you can't drive to them. Do what you want in PA and stay right the fuck out of Utah. When you destroy a man's livelihood and his family that's a violence that you can't diminish. When his children leave to go to the city there that means they are 5 or more hours from the family home. Grandchildren grow up without grandparents. Children cannot return to live in the place where they grew up and the old people either die alone or are forced to go live in an alien world. We're talking about some of the most remote country in the lower 48. If you've been there you enjoyed the privilege of enjoying these people's back yard. Their families suffered and pursued their happiness there for generations. They were deprived of luxuries long after the rest of the country got ahead but for them it was worth the hardship to live and work in such a beautiful place. They wanted that life and that privilege for their progeny but you're cheering the federal government screwing them out of it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless the east coasters think you're a ignorant hick from Escalante.

Thanks for not sugar coating it, like I was. Glad I'm not the only one with strong feelings on these issues. I'm looking forward to my trip to the Moab area in a week... I love these places as much as anyone else, but I really don't like the idea of the Feds stepping on local toes.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:58:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JIP:

I know it sucks when it seems like outsiders are changing things but be glad it is the .gov protecting the land and not oil and gas despoiling wells and dumping waste all over the place and destroying it.
You don't get it, do you?

You have been reading too many pages in Mother Earth News and the Sierra Club magazine. You have been propagandized. Fact is, much of this land would be the same today as it was in the late 1990's before Clinton "protected" it, regardless of it's having National Monument status or not. It's remote. It's damn near impossible to build roads there. It's not a goldmine of oil, natural gas, or coal.... fact is it isn't even very good grazing land for cattle or sheep. It really wouldn't change much if all the states east of the Mississippi River suddenly went up in a could of nuclear fallout... and their were no environmental lobbyists to lobby for its protection in DC.

It's a desert. Its hell. Stay out. Keep away.... It'll be here long after we are gone.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:38:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIP:

Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:
Originally Posted By JIP:
Yeah because the extractive industry should have access to all areas regardless of where they are. Self-regulation is the way to go you don't want the pesky .gov getting in the way of companies that left on their own will ALWAYS do the right thing....



Take that bleeding heart liberal bullshit somewhere else...

I am sick of it..It is your ilk that has destroyed this country...

It is apparent you are happy with the demise of the greatest nation ever to be on the face of
the Earth

This has nothing to do with dumping regulations on national lands..It is another power grab by an already
out of control government..Period..
Yeah I mean what an asshole Clinton was for protecting this:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/grand-staircase.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/calf_creek10.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/GrandStaircase-Escalante.jpg http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/jimp6995/ESCALANTE-NM-SUNRISE.jpg

From the extractive industry. That river would surely look better with some mine waste in it and I am sure there are some minerals somewhere in there. By the way the images are from The Grand Staircase Escalante Nat Monument that Slick Willie did his "Lang grab" on and I know we have suffered for that...



So, is this kinda like PETA protecting cute and fuzzy creatures, but to hell with the ugly ones? Why does the pretty land deserve protection over the ugly land? Damn, forgot ANWAR.... that doesn't fit.

Maybe more like Environmental Pre-Crime? " You see this land you weren't messing up. We're taking it so you don't mess it up. We know you want to you Extractive Industry Basterds!!"

In either case, your argument is a typical liberal EMO driven one that we've seen a billion times before. Instead of the pictures of the pristine landscape, insert the poorly dressed ill-kempt child and ask us how we can not care that they lack healthcare or food or toys or shoes....

And one other .gov tactic.... let's see if you can figure how it ties to this. Texas passed a law some years back that doubled traffic fines which occured in consruction zones. By pure coincidence, constuction zones began appearing (FIVE miles in one particular case) far before one ever saw the first sign of construction being done, much less any worker. Yet, if you dared to speed (not slow down to the posted 45) on this pristine stretch of highway... you'd damn sure pay the double fine.

A final tip... Extractive Industry just doesn't have that "ring" to it. Try "Big Extract"



Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:06:47 PM EDT
Listen, I mean no disrespect to you or yours. I am not sure who said any thing about "pretty land being protected over ugly land" but there has to be somoething in this country that should be protected. I say "extractive industry" to try and stay away from loaded phrases that bring out emotions. I personally love the country you live in, as I said I did some exploring out there on front roads, back roads and, side roads and I consider some of the places others think of as dead just as important as the "pretty land" as you call it.

I am not sure what speeding in construction zones has to do with public lands but I agree with the sentiment. I am sure you will explain it to me and I can't wait to hear it.
Top Top