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Posted: 2/23/2007 7:13:05 PM EST
No guns on the space station or the shuttle .



http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/02/23/astronaut.plan.ap/index.html

CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (AP) -- What would happen if an astronaut became mentally unstable in space and, say, destroyed the ship's oxygen system or tried to open the hatch and kill everyone aboard?

That was the question after the apparent breakdown of Lisa Nowak, arrested this month on charges she tried to kidnap and kill a woman she regarded as her rival for another astronaut's affections.

It turns out NASA has detailed, written procedures for dealing with a suicidal or psychotic astronaut in space. The documents, obtained this week by The Associated Press, say the astronaut's crewmates should bind his wrists and ankles with duct tape, tie him down with a bungee cord and inject him with tranquilizers if necessary.

"Talk with the patient while you are restraining him," the instructions say. "Explain what you are doing, and that you are using a restraint to ensure that he is safe."

The instructions do not spell out what happens after that. But NASA spokesman James Hartsfield said the space agency, a flight surgeon on the ground and the commander in space would decide on a case-by-case basis whether to abort the flight, in the case of the shuttle, or send the astronaut home, if the episode took place on the international space station.

The crew members might have to rely in large part on brute strength to subdue an out-of-control astronaut, since there are no weapons on the space station or the shuttle. A gun would be out of the question; a bullet could pierce a spaceship and kill everyone. There are no stun guns on hand.

"NASA has determined that there is no need for weapons at the space station," Hartsfield said.

NASA and its Russian counterpart drew up the checklist for the space station in 2001. Hartsfield said NASA has a nearly identical set of procedures for the shuttle, but he would not provide a copy Friday, saying its release had not yet been cleared by the space agency's lawyers.

The space-station checklist is part of a 1,051-page document that contains instructions for dealing with every possible medical situation in space, including removing a tooth. Handling behavioral emergencies takes up five pages.

The military has a similar protocol for restraining or confining violent, mentally unstable crew members who pose a threat to themselves or others in nuclear submarines or other dangerous settings.

Although Nowak performed her duties with aplomb during a short visit to the space station via the shuttle last July, and was not scheduled to fly again, her arrest has led NASA to review its psychological screening process.

A mentally unstable astronaut could cause all kinds of havoc that could endanger the three crew members aboard the space station or the six or seven who typically fly aboard the shuttle.

Space station medical kits contain tranquilizers and anti-depression, anti-anxiety and anti-psychotic medications. Shuttle medical kits have anti-psychotic medication but not antidepressants, since they take several weeks to be effective and shuttle flights last less than two weeks.

The checklist says astronauts can be restrained and then offered oral Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug used to treat agitation and mania, and Valium. If the astronaut will not cooperate, the drugs can be forcibly given with a shot to the arm. Crew members are instructed to stay with the tied-up astronaut to monitor vital signs.

Space station astronauts talk weekly via long-distance hookup to a flight surgeon and every two weeks to a psychologist, so any psychiatric disorder would probably be detected before it became so serious that the astronaut had to be brought home, Hartsfield said.

No NASA astronaut at the space station has been treated in orbit with anti-psychotic or antidepressant medications, and no NASA shuttle crew member has required anti-psychotic medications, Hartsfield said.

Depression, feelings of isolation and stress are not unheard of during long stays in space.

A couple of Soviet crews in past decades are believed to have experienced psychological problems, and U.S. astronaut John Blaha admitted feeling depressed at the start of a four-month stay at the Soviets' Mir space station more than a decade ago. Antidepressants were not available.

"I think you have to battle yourself and tell yourself, 'Look, this is your new planet ... and you need to enjoy this environment,"' Blaha told the AP last week. "You sort of shift yourself mentally."

During missions in 1985 and 1995, shuttle commanders put padlocks on the spaceships' hatches as a precaution since they did not know the scientists aboard very well. Some crew members, called payload specialists, are picked to fly for specific scientific or commercial tasks and do not train as extensively with the other astronauts.

Would-be astronauts are carefully tested and screened to eliminate those who are unstable. But unless they are bound for the space station for a monthslong stay in orbit, they are not put through any regular psychological tests after that.

Astronauts selected for the space station get a psychiatric assessment six months and a month before launch.

Dr. Patricia Santy, a former NASA psychiatrist and author of the book "Choosing the Right Stuff," said there are no good studies of astronauts' stress levels or how they adapt psychologically to space.

U.S. astronauts at the space station keep a journal for a study by a researcher. But Santy said the diaries will not help detect mental illness.

"What astronaut is going to tell you they're feeling homicidal?" she asked. "They're very conscious that if they say the wrong thing they could get grounded."

Astronaut James Reilly, who is flying on space shuttle Atlantis next March, said it is unlikely a U.S. astronaut would lose it in space. Space tourists who pay the Russians $20 million to go to the space station are another matter, he said.

"I think we stand a greater chance of someone getting a little nuts with the space tourists that fly occasionally because it's less rigorous," Reilly said.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:16:11 PM EST
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:24:02 PM EST
The Russians carry a shotgun aboard Soyuz. Been doing it forever given that they recover on land and some of them have ended up WAAAAY out in the boonies.

I'd imagine that it would be accessible to any of the crew aboard ISS if they really wanted to get to it bad enough.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:25:59 PM EST
They have been saying that "no weapons on the Shuttle" story from the very beginning. And everybody knows that isn't true.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:28:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.


I can neither confirm nor deny that.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:34:21 PM EST
In before someone says guns won't work in the space station.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:35:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.


I can neither confirm nor deny that.


So, IF one were to be a door gunner, do they use a .50BMG? I mean, if we're down here shooting at you, you'd need a gun that could shoot back right? This is all hypothetical of course.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:40:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By RckClimber:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.


I can neither confirm nor deny that.


So, IF one were to be a door gunner, do they use a .50BMG? I mean, if we're down here shooting at you, you'd need a gun that could shoot back right? This is all hypothetical of course.



we tried ma dueces, but the recoil pushed us WAY off course


not a problem since we went to the phased plasma rifles


i can't tell you how powerful they are. well i could, but you know....
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:42:35 PM EST
our astronauts have no way to fight off the Greys?
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:44:07 PM EST
They need to hurry it up with those phaser designs.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:45:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:

Originally Posted By RckClimber:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.


I can neither confirm nor deny that.


So, IF one were to be a door gunner, do they use a .50BMG? I mean, if we're down here shooting at you, you'd need a gun that could shoot back right? This is all hypothetical of course.



we tried ma dueces, but the recoil pushed us WAY off course


not a problem since we went to the phased plasma rifles


i can't tell you how powerful they are. well i could, but you know....


I believe they are somewhere in the 40 watt range.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:47:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:49:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 7:51:11 PM EST by theliberating1]
huh
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:12:12 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By RckClimber:
height=8
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
height=8
Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.her


So, IF one were to be a door gunner, do they use a .50BMG? I mean, if we're down here shooting at you, you'd need a gun that could shoot back right? This is all hypothetical of course.


.45ACP does the trick nicely. One shot stops from orbit.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:26:15 PM EST
Did you know that the M-16 bullet won't tumble in space, and is therefore harmless? That is the real reason they don't want weapons in space, they're afraid our enemies will find out.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:29:28 PM EST
Didn't you guys get the memo?

We aren't using normal mass-projectile weapons anymore... They went out with Reagan.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:29:55 PM EST
Hell I know that aint true. I've fended off more Reevers that you can shake a stick at...

Nothin' in the 'verse can stop me!



Mark.

Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:30:44 PM EST
What would zero-G due to bullet trajectory? I would think it would greatly increase your useful range.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:33:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cavu:
What would zero-G due to bullet trajectory? I would think it would greatly increase your useful range.


Its not zero G. There are gravity fields up there. Long range aiming would require an understanding of planetary physics and Gravitation. On the bright side though, the bullet V would be pretty constant.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:16:53 PM EST
Pfft...everyone knows CorBon DPX was developed specifically for use on the shuttle.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:24:43 PM EST
So does this imply Astronauts should go through airport security before boarding the shuttle?

Sine there are no children on board, who would it be for?
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:28:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cavu:
What would zero-G due to bullet trajectory? I would think it would greatly increase your useful range.

It's not zero-G, when you're in orbit gravity is essentially the same, but you're moving around the earth at a rate that negates the slope of the earth, so you're basically in a free-fall that will never touch the ground.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:31:56 PM EST
I wonder what would happen if the US would go to war with Russia? Would they still work together in the ISS considering there is nothing that they can do or what?
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:35:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By 72826:
In before someone says guns won't work in the space station.


why would anyone say that?

If a gun can fire under water it can fire in space... let alone inside the station where there is an atmosphere.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:37:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:

Originally Posted By 72826:
In before someone says guns won't work in the space station.


why would anyone say that?

If a gun can fire under water it can fire in space... let alone inside the station where there is an atmosphere.

There was a thread a while back where people had all kinds of ridiculous ideas about firing a gun in space or in orbit.
Everything from there can be no explosion because there isn't oxygen, to you will be sent backwards at the same speed as the bullet is sent forward.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:42:53 PM EST
Meh, that Chinese satelite that was allegedly destroyed by a anti satelite weapon was REALLY a Glock fo-tay kaboom. They don't want to admit to having guns in space either.


SSDG #19
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:43:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By RckClimber:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Door gunners and their equipment are not on any manifests.


I can neither confirm nor deny that.


So, IF one were to be a door gunner, do they use a .50BMG? I mean, if we're down here shooting at you, you'd need a gun that could shoot back right? This is all hypothetical of course.


This is where the coolness of space comes into play. You don't need a .50bmg to shoot things up in space. A bb gun with enough power can take out any object you like. In genera a light fast projectile delivers more energy on impact than a slow heavy projectile. Sooooo if you take a bb gun into space where you don't really worry about things like air friction you can get a projectile going very fast and it will maintain that speed and deliver a hell of a pounding on whatever it hits. I've seen footage of bb's fired in a vacume chamber that have penetrated thick steal plate.

Dang i just re-read your post, you want to shoot things on the ground. Well in that case we need to shoot through air. I would suggest you get the biggest projectile you can find and protect it with ablative material so it can survive reentry. A targeting computer might also be a good idea. The math on that is gonna be hard. If you can use guided rockets combined with ablative material you might be able to get enough velocity before hitting air to generate significant kinetic strikes.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:55:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:
I wonder what would happen if the US would go to war with Russia? Would they still work together in the ISS considering there is nothing that they can do or what?


Ever seen "2010" with Roy Scheider?
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 11:19:45 PM EST
Space Maaaadddneeessssssssssss..................
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:06:29 AM EST
Bump for Saturday morning SSDG's (space ship door gunners).
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 6:16:39 AM EST
Hey, I got my seat!

Link Posted: 2/24/2007 7:50:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:
Hey, I got my seat!

i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/zwvirtual/ar15%20photos/shuttledoorgunner.jpg


That is clearly a photoshop.

<­BR>

The real firing ports are just a little further back. shhhhh... Don't tell.

Mark.

Link Posted: 2/24/2007 9:41:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2007 9:43:00 AM EST by zwvirtual]

Originally Posted By M-60:

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:
Hey, I got my seat!

i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/zwvirtual/ar15%20photos/shuttledoorgunner.jpg


That is clearly a photoshop.

The real firing ports are just a little further back. shhhhh... Don't tell.

Mark.




Damn, damn, damn! Ok, I admit it. That's me with my airsoft M-60 that I 'shopped in. You can't see him, but Capt Cookie is in the cargobay.
Not sure if we'll make off the ground for this mission...

Link Posted: 2/24/2007 11:22:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:

Originally Posted By M-60:

Originally Posted By zwvirtual:
Hey, I got my seat!

i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/zwvirtual/ar15%20photos/shuttledoorgunner.jpg


That is clearly a photoshop.

The real firing ports are just a little further back. shhhhh... Don't tell.

Mark.




Damn, damn, damn! Ok, I admit it. That's me with my airsoft M-60 that I 'shopped in. You can't see him, but Capt Cookie is in the cargobay.
Not sure if we'll make off the ground for this mission...






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