The range I frequent has positions out to 600 yards.  To shoot at 400 and 600, one must first be qualified at 300, keeping 5 shots in a 6" circle.  

Saturday, I was trying my slow fire 600 yard leg and had put two targets on the frames.  I had shot my first frame when a cease fire was called for target service.  No problem, I'll just rack my rifle and have a wind break.

I notice a car going down to the 400 frames and thought I would have neighbors.  No, they didn't stop until the 600!  They rip my 1st target down and put up a fresh one!!!

Upon their return, I question them if they are 400+ qualified by range management.  They reply yes but when I asked to prove it via credientials, they couldn't furnish.  They also were completly dumb about range rules prohibiting cross-lane fire (benches are only @ 300 yard positions, 400 and 600 are for 4-position)  I kept cool, not wanting a fight with such troglodytes.  

When they missed the 600 yard targets, they asked others what range they were shooting!  Now I know they were not qualified.  The wind started to get too unpredictable so I just waited for the idiopts to leave.  It ended on a good note because as soon as the lard-brains left, the wind stopped.

Please read and follow the range rules, especially if you have never been to a particular range.

Keith_J,

Does the range have range officers that enforce the rules, or is it self-enforced?  

By the way, where is this range?  I in in North Dallas and am looking for a place to shoot out to 600.  So far, I have been unable to find such a place within an hour of here.  Good shooting!

The range has a good staff but the 300+ range is self-policed.  You can tell a regular from a neophyte, the regulars never are barked at by the range officers.  IMHO, one should qualify at the 100 with a 2" group of five to shoot at the 300.


I'm afraid the range is too far for you (an hour by airplane) unless you are planning a trip to Barker Texas.  Its on the headwaters of Buffalo Bayou, west of Houston.

BTW, it would be a great range for a CMP affilated league if it had pits.  I am proposing a work-around...  

.... I was at the local indoor range yesterday trying to sight-in my new 10/22 when these two absolute tools show up next to me. There was an older guy, I'm assuming the Uncle or something, and a younger kid (about 13-14 yrs old,) shooting a single shot 12 gauge and a semi-auto .22 magnum. I'd say that's almost the average guy who shows up at the range, nothing bad at all. However, this guy would talk soooo freaking loud whenever people are trying to shoot. It was pissing me off sooo bad.

Then I started having problems with my 10/22 failing to extract. He then asked what was wrong and proceeded to tell me that the [b]scope[/b] was the problem. I just told him I already tried took off the scope and it doesn't work, just to prevent an argument. Here's the bad part. A guy about three lanes down had rented an AR-15 to shoot. This guy was from Scotland on vacation and decided he just had to shoot this thing while he was here. He bought about 5 boxes of ammo. As soon as this guy next to me sees it he yells "HEY CHRIS," (his nephew or whatever he was) "LOOK, THAT GUY HAS AN ASSAULT RIFLE. DO YOU WANT TO SHOOT IT?" He asks the guy if he can shoot it and goes over, shoots about 30 rounds, lets his nephew fill up a magazine, and he shoots another 30 rounds, and then they pack their bags, say thanks and leave. Without even offering to pay for the ammo that they shot. What a bunch of dicks!

Anyway, just had to vent a little. That really pissed me off. Sorry for the bad formatting, I typed this really fast.

Ian

I'm sure you know, but that AR15 you saw is not an Assult weapon. [8D]  Unless he popped off in FA for a bit.   You should have 'yelled' that to him. [;)]

To me, the WORST range manners are those once a year wonders that show up with their elephant guns with the muzzle brakes.

The ones whose muzzle blast slaps you in the face so hard you think you are back living at your parents house and you just used the "F" word for the first time in front of your momma.

I fricken' HATE that. If you ain't man enuf to take the recoil, then git out da kitchen. (or some dang thing)

Loudest muzzlebreaks I've ever heard have been on AR's, other than the .50's - you kinda need one on them things [50]

A good friend of mine has one on his Armalite .223

Its a good thing he's a VERY good friend cuz that muzzle brake is BAD manners.

[:D]

The worst brakes have to be on 30-378's.

No shit:  I was at the 200 yard range with a long barreled .22 when two guys with these braked bastards get onto an adjacent lane next to me.  The concussion was enough to push me off target, and leave me stunned afterwards (like using the F word in front of Mom!)

The range is in fine shape for pistol to 200 yards.  these are the covered positions. 300 has concrete pad and great benches but no cover.  400 is in the weeds and 600 has a wood elevated platform so you are not in the grass on prone.

Cross-lane shooting is prohibited but since range officials do not police the 200 yard+ section, its rarely enforced unless I'm there.  Fire control on 100 and below is by a range employee (RCO) but is self-policed by the 200+ range users.

Cross-lane shooting is prohibited because the danger zone angles are limited.  The 600 has a berm on the left all the way down but its only 20 feet high and offers little protection.

I don't shoot anything other than 200+.  My AR likes long ranges...

Range Keith_J is speaking of is American Shooting Center at 16500 Beeler (713-556-8086). Take IH.10 west to Hwy 6, turn south to Westheimer, turn west take right fork at about 3 blocks, this is Beeler, continue over Barker Resoviour levy west for 1.5 miles you'll see sign on right.

Believe I paid 8.00+tax (includes one target)for one gun last time I went. I mostly go in early am Sat or Sun and there is generally never more than 1 or 2 shooters at 300 and  alot of the time none. Most shooters don't shoot past the 200.
As Keith stated, put 5 rounds in bullseye of one of their 300 yard targets they will give you ASC card w/ signature and "Qualified for 400-600 yds", something guys at shop when I got mine (long time ago) said was hard for most folks.
Nice place at long range area, clean and not all shot up like Carter's, can't speak about the pistol or 50-100 area, don't shoot down there too much. Too many peoples and lots of hollering on speakers from Range officers, (much deserved in most cases) they do have good range officer coverage.

Mike

Lemme get this straight....

So you deliberately CHEAT a small business owner that provides you a place to exercise your Second Amendment rights???

And that business owner incurs the EXPENSE of you having multiple firearms at his range, but you don't pay for the priviledge??

And then the businees owner goes OUT OF BUSINESS cuz of your selfishness, and then you come here and bitch about not having a place to shoot??

Am I getting this straight????

As in, "yeah, I believe in teh Second Amendment, as long as it doesn't cost me anything?"

Please feel free to correct me here' [rolleyes]

If I'm getting it about right, then YOU, sir, are the best illustration of "bad range manners" cuz you cause ALL you fellow shooters to lose a place to shoot.

You guy's are lucky, only place around here that you can have a clear 600 yard shot is Interstate 10.

I guess every range gets their share.  A friend was getting sight settings for handgun shilouettes one saturday when a couple of yahoos showed up.  That had club cards, but obviously had slept through the safety briefing.  Since my friend was to the extreme right he was "range master;" the only person who could declare the range hot or cold.  My friend walked down to paint the 200 meter ram and was probably still 150 meters away when one of the yahoos opens fire.  My buddy dove behind a berm and strated shouting.  After reading the riot act he asked for their cards.  At first they refused, but he was adamant (and had a Colonel sticker next to his base decal) and they fessed up.  They were both forever banned.

Eddie

How's this for bad manners?  Two weeks ago I was at an outdoor range.  It's been busy since hunting season opened up, so Points are hard to find. I was Shooting at the 100 yard section (it's either 50/100, 100, or 200).  Now I'm all for teaching new people the sport of shooting, but...I was just unloaded 3 mags out of my AR and was waiting for the cease fire so I could check my targets.  Two pints to the left of me was a family, Guy, wife/girlfriend, and boy.  The guy was trying to coaxy the woman to shoot.  She finally sat down and he tried to explain how the gun worked.  SHe was nervous and didn't look like she wanted to try, but she took the gun and followed his directions.  She was obviously confused about something and he was wasn't explaining himslef to well, when all of a sudden she waved the gun around and pointed it at him! (jokingly I'm assuming)  Three other people, waiting for the cease fire saw this.  (they were 4, 5, and 6 points to my left)  I couldn't believe I just saw what I saw.  Anyways, cease fire is called a few minutes later so I check/change my targets, and on the way back I say to the guys on my left, "If she flashes that gun my way again, do me a favor and shoot her before she kills someone."  Small chuckles and agreement all the way round.

This is when it gets better.  Seems that they are part of a small group that show up while we are changing targets.  Now there are 4 adults, 3 wives/girlfriends and some kids.  The point next to me opens up so now thy have the 2 points to my immediate left.  So the next round, again I unload a few magazines and wait for a cease fire.  My guns racked on the back of the table, my range box on my table with my empty and full mags there also I go back and sit directly behind my point on a bench.  Well the first guy see's an "open point" and has his kid sit down and blast away at MY target.  At this point I didn't know whether to just beat this guy, beat this kid AND the guy, or just hand the first woman my AR and hope she takes them all out "by accident."

Lets see...the range charges about $7.50 + tax for me to shoot all day with one rifle.  If you bring another, say a pistol, that's $3.00 more.
The only way I cheat my range is I keep my brass.


I spend another $10 on goodies.  Mind you, I don't rot my brain at the movies and rarely eat out.  The range gets my money, not the liberal, left-wing hollywood nutz.

As far as bad manners go, the imbecile who did that to me was wearing a USMC tee shirt.  Its obivious he's a poseur...no Marine would behave soo poorly on any range unless he had a full frontal lobotomy.

 Same thing about the guy with a McMillan .50 who called it a McBro's .50.  It was his first time out with the rifle.  McBro's....silently LMAO.

I guess I've had too much training in my life but such is the case when one has competed since age 9 and shot expert since the first round qualifying in the US Army.  


Judging from the responses, next time I will report such beahvior to range management.  If you cannot read and follow the rules, I will have you removed from the range.  

I live in the Inland Empire region of SoCal, and we have our fair share of non-english speaking immigrants here.  This, as you can imagine, leads to alot of communication problems.

I usually frequent Lytle Creek because it is close to me and they allow rapid fire.  This place earned a pretty bad reputation several years ago for being a non-regulated and very hazardous place to shoot.  Because of this it was closed down for some time, but people (i.e., drunks,gangbangers,idiots, etc.) would still trespass and shoot anyway.

In '99 it was officially reopened but with clearly defined areas and lanes with at least one R.O. for each area.

Lytle Creek is safe.  It's safe because there are rules and guidelines you agree to before you are allowed to shoot.  The problem is, there isn't always someone at the sign-up counter who can speak Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, etc.

Some of the main rules are:

No trnsferring of firearms from person to person on the firing line.  The weapon must be picked up from the table.

All actions must be locked open and no mags in the firearm during cease fire.

Nobody allowed near the tables during cease fire.

No loading of mags or handling of ammo during cease fire.

No firing anything larger than handgun caliber any closer than fifty yards.


There are obviously many other COMMON SENSE reg's to follow, but the ones I listed above are broken by someone EVERYTIME I'm there buy someone who can't speak the language.  I've even seen arguments with R.O.'s and a couple of expulsions over this stuff.

It's always worth a couple of chuckles for entertainment, though.

Uh, Keith_J:

McMillian Brothers = McBros.

Their .50's are called McBros. guns--

website:

[url]http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/mcbros.htm[/url]

jean-claude,

I don't have an AR10, but I do have a FAL built on an STG 58 kit that I put a DSA muzzle brake on.  It's got three ports on each side of the brake which direct gasses out. Anyone on a table next to me can definitely feel and hear the blast so I always let them know ahead of time so as not to startle them.

The BEST example of an inconsiderate shooter is anyone with a Mini 14 that sets up within five city blocks of someone to the right of him.  Ever been popped in the head by hot brass travelling about 25,000 feet per second?  

JC -

Here's my $0.02(adjusted for inflation, worth about $0.00000075)

Muzzle brakes are functionally very nice to have. They do what they are designed to do - reduce muzzle rise.

However, when shooting casually at a public range, they are un-nice to the guy next to you.

And in competition, they are SIMPLY WRONG. They are the equivalent of getting kicked in the ribs after every shot.

In summary,

for shooting alone on private property, go for it. They are noisy, but worth the icy stares from teh neighbor down the stret.

For casual shooting at a puvblic range, just make sure you set up AT LEAST four benches down from teh guys next to you.

For competition, FORGET IT. Remember, you are pissing off a guy with a gun.

I can only encourage you to feel muzzle blast from someone else BEFORE you decide to do it another guy.

I can remember numerous times going home fromn the range EXHAUSTED, SHELL SHOCKED from muzzle blast. It juts WRONG to put your competitor thru that. It gives you an UNFAIR advantage.

What I hate is when the deer hunters fondle their rifles during cease fire.  I refuse to go down range when other deer hunters are ignoring the rules us mil surplus shooters always adhere to.

Lemme address that specifically -

My friends Armalite .223?? I can feel muzzle blast REAL STRONG at 25 feet to his side. 25 FRICKEN FEET.

Imagine what a .308 would be like.

If you EVER wish to compete, I'd say go with the recessed crown barrel.

BTW - I thinks its VERY cool that you are concerned about this. VERY cool.

Further, I don't believe brakes are allowed in service rifle competition. But then, i don't believe the AR10 is allowed in service rifle.

I have been reading this thread and am constantly amazed at things that have happened to you guys, but I believe I have the one that takes the cake.
I was a member at an indoor pistol range a few years back, one with two seperate rooms, one side for members, and one side for the general public, divided by a heavy door between them.
It was the middle of a sunny Wednesday afternoon, as I recall, and only I and one other shooter were there.
He was ahead of me at the check-in counter, so I observed him as he rented a Glock 9mm, and got the safety rules explained to him.
I thought nothing of it, as he obviously wouldn't be shooting on the member's side, but was just some walk-in.
We were each alone in our respective rooms.
I had fired about 50 rounds through a nice old S&W Mod28, when one of the employees came up and asked me to please pack it up immediately and go back to the lobby.
I complied, and asked why.....no answer, except for "There has been an incident."
I waited around a bit, and eventually pried it out of someone, that the newbie had rented the Glock, shot a few rounds, and then deliberately shot himself in the head. The guy inside at the counter had seen him remove his hearing protection, and then BOOM.
"You might not want to see this..." they told me, and I answered that not much grosses me out after having worked ambulance for years, and raised 2 sons.
They hauled away the debris of the moron, (temple to temple, through and through head wound), and carted the mess to the ambulance, when I glanced into the non-members room, and noticed the blood, brains and hair pattern showed that this jerk had not even had the decency to turn *downrange* to blow his own brains out.
Luckily, there were no other shooters in there with him.
But wait! The story gets even better!
The Aurora PD shows up, and proceeds to take a statement from me.....what did I see? did I notice anything odd? etc etc..
"Yeah, I heard a few shots from the other room, no, I paid no attention, this is a pistol range, right?"
And then they told me that because no one had actually *seen* the shot, that MY gun was going to be confiscated and ballistic tested......as though *I* may have sneaked through the connecting door, and shot the dumbass.
I knew that if Aurora PD got their hands on this pretty little 5 screw, I would never see it again, and so I protested quite vigorously.....
THIS was bullshit!
After *3* hours of arguing with cops, they finally relented, when the counter guy said that I had never left the members side, and couldn't possibly have done this without him noticing.
Heck no! The connecting door is locked except to range employees.
This was the 4th time some idiot had come in there, and rented a gun to waste himself with, and the place was getting a bit infamous.
They discontinued rentals and changed the carpets yet again, but I was more pissed off at the Aurora PD and the thoughtless suicide clown than words could express.
I did *not* renew my membership, as the least they could have given me was a few trips free shooting, for all the crap I had had to go through there, but nooooo.
Thinking about it later, heck, the idiot should have gone in on a busy Saturday morning, signed a waiver, and let us all try our defense loads on his dumb ass. Would have made his worthless existence meaningful.

Well, I get annoyed as much as the rest of you guys.....  but...

I am just so glad that people are shooting... as long as they are safe, I am willing to put up with a lot.

I mean, the once a year wonders with the muzzle braked elephant guns.... they need to be able to shoot too, right?  Heck, if they only shoot them once a year, I can deal with that.

Yahoo's?  As long as they are safe, I am cool with it.  Everyone has to start somewhere.

Brass slingers?  I simply let them know, and either (a) move, (b) ask them to alternate shooting with me, or (c) ask them to move if they cannot control their projectiles.

Muzzle brakes?  No, I hate them.  I hate it when they set up next to me.... but I also bet the guy with the banchrest rifles and chrony... who shoots like one round every 5 minutes........ cannot stand it when I empty a 20 round mag out... even slowly...

We all have to get along.  We all have a right to shoot.  If the range allows it, I put up with it.  I will deal with a little PITA to support having a great place to shoot.  

I could not imagine the alternatives.

How about he helped the range out by buying the Glock with his credit card.  It's not like he was ever going to see the bill!![BD]

As you know, the post-ban Armalite series rifles have factory MB’s installed. My AR10A4 series does indeed include a factory muzzle brake.

I hope you aren’t finding these [i]factory MB’s [/i] objectionable! Or does your friend have the JP Enterprises on his Armalite .223??

I don't want to clear the line - or sgnificantly reduce other shooters enjoyment.
So let’s say its "No JP muzzle brake for me!"

But I kinda would like [i]something [/I] on the end of the barrel, remember, this is [i]not [/I] a AR10T model.  And the shorter barreled AR10A4's did come with an integral MB. If nothing else, it adds to the "black-rifle mystique."

So [i]now [/I] what would ya'll do - bare muzzle crown, factory MB or aftermarket MB?

Thanks!

Well, Brouhaha, I figured the range owed me for at least the rest of that afternoon's shooting time, which was forfeit, I mean, 50 rounds? Heck I was just getting warmed up. And maybe a couple of trips for waiting 3 hours while I sweated it out with the cops to see if they were going to steal my gun. I mean, the counter guy could have at any time mentioned that that door was locked.
And maybe just for general PR and out of the goodness of their hearts.

American Shooting off Westhimer has ALOT of idiot gun owners and thinking about it has alot of idiot range-kids(not masters) I think the place is clean and nice for outdoor shooting,BUT they need to get rid of the little boys they have working there.  I took my wife there to practice on her glock and this range-kid was making up rules every other min. to try and look cool. I finally had enough bullshit and was getting my stuff together to leave.  As i'm loading my guns in their cases he butts in and says make sure you put your guns in the case at the bench, we have had some people shoot rounds into their car as they were putting them away in the case in their trunk...I won't be going back there again..I thought about contacting the owners, it seemed like such a nice place but the help sucked...

The actual shooting portion of the Texas CHL course is relatively lienient in respect to accuracy. If you can put all shots in the center of the target at 3 & 7yds you can completely miss the target at last stage and still pass the test.

I was a little annoyed when the little old lady (about 70) started hitting my target with her last 4 or 5 shots at the end. I guess that big revolver she was shooting got pretty heavy for her towards the end.

Michael

btt

Far as I know, its the factory brake.

And believe me, its "objectionable." All I can suggest is that you try being beside one of those things for yourself during a match.

Sounds like that range needed some vermin control, BigBear. That sure tops my story all to hell.
With the history of firearms robberies at unattended ranges there, sounds like you would have been perfectly justified in winning that firefight.
In fact, firing while you were downrange would have constituted deadly assault in my mind, especially since it didnt appear to have been accidental, judging by the ensuing attitudes they showed.
Lucky you had your rifles *with* you when you went downrange.
Bless you for your self control, I would have figured "this is it" and opened up, I think.

I used to shoot out in the hills between Perris and Canyon Lake until I started finding piles of empty bottles of ephedrine all over the place.

1840's - "there's gold in them thar hills!"

1990's-Present - "There's meth labs in them thar hills!"

I'll stick to regulated ranges, thank you.

LMAO

The only time I break out my mini-14 ranch, is when I go shooting at a buddies place. The last time, I swear, while son-in-laws were shooting it, I stood a good 40 feet in back of them at there 4 oclock position, and was swatting done the brass, with some still getting over my reach. [shock]

Where'd you get THAT crazy idea from?  Most service rifle competitors, if they're not using post-bans (like myself), use their pre-bans or (if in the military) use their M16's.  There are many many muzzle brakes on the firing line.

Flash suppressors vs. muzzle brakes.

prebans all have flash suppressors, which are DCM qualified. To my knowledge, muzzle brakes are NOT, based on teh competitive advantage they give, and their lack of military acceptance. it IS called "service rifle" after all.

Anyone else feel free to correct me here.

    I am truly shocked at some of the stories about idiotic behavior at these ranges. I admire the response's from you guys.
    I would without question or hesitation BITCH-SLAP anybody in these situations and gladly go to the pokey for it.

The A2 flash supressor also functions as a muzzle brake as its closed-bottom effectively counters the slight recoil rise.

Both open and closed bottom supressors redirect some of the blast back.  Its minor when you are out in the open but can be distracting under cover.

I guess my little problem with a bubba is nothing compared to the gang-bangers.  I remember one range where I saw such a pack file out of a pimp-caddy.  Yes, the 1911 went mode 1 and on my hip until they left.  They were missing coffee cans at 25 yards with an SKS.  I was making tennis balls dance at 100 with my AR from sitting position.  

"At first they refused, but he was adamant (and had a Colonel sticker next to his base decal) and they fessed up. They were both forever banned."

I love it when some jackass officer thinks he can keep getting over on people everywhere all the time cause he uses his rank and threats to scare some privates in the real world.
When I was still in the guard I was bopping around on campus in my goretex when some loser bird man ROTC advisor stopped me to give me some crap.
I told him I had busted lots of zeros when I was an MP, and they cry louder than everyone else.
He didn't want to say too much after that. I didn't even get a chance to tell him to kiss my ass.
I would love to be there the first time some retired bird man gets beaten down bossing people around in the real world.

[b]muzzle breaks and compensators are not allowed in highpower rifle competition[/b]

heres a quote from the nra highpower rifle rule book. efective january 1, 1999

page 13, section 3.16.1

[b]compensators and muzzle breaks[/b]

The use of compensators and muzzle breaks is prohibited.
An extention tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considdered a "muzzle break".
The extention tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4" x 1" slots cut at 12 and 6 o'clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the installation of sight bases will be allowed.


in short flash hiders yes
muzzle breaks and compensators no

I know what you mean. I always went down range with a fully loaded rifle and pistol because if idiots like that.