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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/26/2005 5:42:58 AM EDT
Hopefully it passes, but with bullshit like this it will be hard. Front Page of the Detroit Free Press.

www.freep.com/news/mich/justify26e_20050926.htm

BIG-CITY DEATHS: The time to kill

Detroit had more justifiable homicides than any of the 10 biggest cities in 1999-2003. Now a state House bill seeks to expand citizens' rights to use deadly force in self defense.
September 26, 2005

BY JOE SWICKARD
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

In the still of the night, after her southwest Detroit bar has closed, Adela Rivera sometimes still wonders whether she's going to hell.

House Bill 5143
The bill's purpose is to clarify the rights of self-defense and to provide immunity from prosecution or civil lawsuit.
It would allow a citizen to use force he or she reasonably believes necessary -- including fatal force -- against someone breaking into their home or occupied vehicle.

Law-abiding citizens in a public place could stand their ground and resist a threat of serious injury.

See the bill at www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=getobject&objName=2005-HB-5143.

By Joe Swickard


How to be heard
Talk to your state representative or senator by calling the state operator at 517-373-1837 from 7:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. weekdays. Write to your state representative at the following address: P.O. Box 30014, Lansing 48909.

"You know it says, 'Thou shall not kill,' " Rivera said, taking a drag on a menthol cigarette, a habit that reclaimed her after that November night in 2003 when she shot two robbers in her parking lot. "It doesn't say, 'Thou shall not kill, except ...' "

Across town, another woman often lies in the dark. Her son was on the other end of bullets fired in self-defense in another case.

"I am awake every night, and I think about it every day," said Bernadette Taliaferro-Cain. "It's been almost 1 1/2 years and a part of me is dying and I don't know how to stop it. I just want to ask why they did it, why they shot my son."

Detroit has long since ceded the title of Murder City. But Detroiters are still killing each other at a breathtaking rate that leads America's 11 largest cities, according to FBI crime records.

From 1999 to 2003, Detroit has logged more justifiable homicides than New York, Chicago, Los Angeles or the seven other biggest cities. And the rate at which Detroiters have legally killed is nearly double that of the next highest cities, according to the most recent FBI records.

Meanwhile, a bill introduced to expand and codify citizens' rights to use deadly force in self-defense or to stop a felony has been introduced in the state House.

Detroit citizens have taken up firearms and knives to protect themselves and others from robbers, violent spouses, would-be killers and rapists on streets, in homes and at businesses. In many cases, police or prosecutors decided the killing was justified and not a crime.

Even so, the bill's author says, the law is needed to protect citizens from a potentially capricious legal system where they might be charged as criminals or sued for defending themselves or their homes. If a burglar were shot inside a house, his relatives would be barred from suing the homeowner.

"I call it the 'Castle Doctrine' and a person should not have to retreat," Rep. Rick Jones, R-Grand Ledge, said last week.

The former sheriff of Eaton County said: "I've seen many, many crime victims ... Citizens should be able to defend their lives when they are in imminent danger no matter if they are in their home, car or out in public where they can legally be."

The bill would not cover, for example, a gangster who kills a rival in self-defense during a dope deal. Currently, the survivor might be charged for the drug offense, but not for the killing.

The bill is opposed by prosecutors and some judges who call it unnecessary and an invitation to greater gunplay.

In the cases involving Rivera and Taliaferro-Cain, the bill might not have made any difference in criminal charges, but could come into play to block a civil lawsuit. No law can salve the pain a killing brings the survivors nor control unpredictable ramifications and reactions.

Detroit Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings said last week through spokesman James Tate that she has not read the proposed law, but that Detroit's "great number of justifiable homicides" reflects citizens responding to force with force.

Chilling numbers, hard truths
The number of justifiable killings may stun the layperson, but leading criminologists James Alan Fox of Northeastern University and Alfred Blumstein of Carnegie Mellon University said recently the numbers are in line given the number of Detroit's homicides.

They said justifiable homicides usually equal about 5% of a city's slayings -- and Detroit's average of 11 justifiable killings a year versus 395 homicides a year falls within that range.

Fox said Detroit's count is statistically in line "based on criminal homicides."

Even so, Michigan State University sociologist Carl Taylor said last week the numbers and the proposed bill show "a sense of frontier justice, of acting without thinking."

"Some people are very angry, and some people are very afraid," Taylor said. "A lot of people wonder, 'Are the police coming?' If the cavalry isn't coming, you got to get out your six-shooter."

Former Detroit Police Chief Isaiah McKinnon said last week the city has a culture of violence, a fearful population and ready access to firearms. It's a recipe for trouble, he said.

While there has never been an agreed-upon count, Detroit is awash with tens of thousands of legal and illegal guns. For instance, the Detroit Police Department took 3,495 guns off the city's streets in 2003, according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

"And there is a lack of trust in government at all levels, a feeling one has to protect one's self and family," McKinnon said.

Prosecutors Kym Worthy and David Gorcyca said last week they oppose the new law.

Oakland County's Gorcyca, president-elect of the Prosecuting Attorneys Association of Michigan, said the bill is "a very dangerous proposition that greatly expands the use of deadly force. It's just bad public policy."

Worthy, of Wayne County, said the law elevates property protection to the level of human life.

She said the bill encourages people to stand and fight rather than take steps to avoid conflict.

"The number of justifiable homicides shows the law that we have is working," she said.

Currently, she said, her office weighs the circumstances, admissible evidence and the ability to prove a case to a jury. "We're not charging people willy-nilly," she said.

Others say they think the fears about the proposed law are overwrought.

Robert Kahle, a Ferndale-based social researcher, said he opposed the relaxation of the concealed-weapons law several years ago, thinking it would lead to a surge in killings.

Nothing of the sort happened; in fact, he said, the raw numbers for homicides and violent crimes in Detroit have been declining. "Yes, there is hope," he said last week. Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist, said Michigan is following Florida, which also broadened its self-defense laws.

"I'd be astonished if it has any effect," Kleck said last week, adding that few people go through a legal analysis when deciding whether to fight or flee.

Life after death
Adela Rivera and Bernadette Taliaferro-Cain may be on opposite ends of the justifiable homicide equation -- Rivera killed two robbers and Taliaferro-Cain's son was killed in a front-porch showdown -- but their continuing anguish is remarkably similar. The two women could almost speak each other's pain.

Rivera, 51, retired injured from the Detroit Police Department after 20 years working everything from street patrol to mayoral security. She bought a bar on a hard-luck stretch of West Fort at Clark Street.

On a Saturday night in November 2003, a customer ran in saying two guys were robbing customers in the parking lot. Rivera and manager Salvador Cuevas ran outside. Cuevas tried to shut a chain-link gate, and Rivera ran up to their car as the driver floored the gas. When it looked like they'd run down Cuevas, Rivera pulled her pistol and fired once.

Cuevas jumped aside as the car roared away. Rivera thought she'd hit one of the robbers.

"My customers don't have much; they'd lost about $15 and had some neck chains snatched," she said Thursday.

Police later contacted her. The robbers were found dead in their car near the freeway.

Rivera, who never fired her gun in anger as a cop, had killed two men with one bullet: a shot through the driver's neck and into the passenger's chest.

She was quickly cleared. Security tapes backed her story, but she still feared that she might go to prison.

Then, as a woman of faith, she feared damnation as a killer. She cried with friends.

"There isn't a day or night I didn't think about it," she said. "It happened fast."

Her former colleagues cheered her when she walked into police headquarters at 1300 Beaubien.

"The hardest thing was taking the accolades," she said.

She didn't want high fives for getting some chump-change bandits: "I wish I could take it back. I'm sorry, so sorry, but they put themselves in that situation.

"Having a gun is a terrible responsibility," she said. "Once you use it, things are never the same again. You can't take it back."

Taliaferro-Cain, a high school teacher, can't resolve the death of her son, Jeaco Hill, shot to death May 7, 2004, on a porch where he'd gone with a cousin. If exact details haunt Rivera, the uncertainties gnaw at Taliaferro-Cain.

"My son died on a cold porch and no one seemed to care," she said Thursday. "When I got there, there was no yellow tape, no flashing lights. It was like this person didn't matter."

Hill, 31, had gone to prison for weapons and drug violations, but his mother said his record didn't make him worthless.

His sister, Charlitta Hill, also 31, of Detroit, said, "He raised us, he was our father, our brother, our best friend."

Taliaferro-Cain is unconvinced by the official account of a shootout and that people in the house were within their rights. She insists her son was unarmed.

"If he was doing wrong, they haven't shown me yet," she said.

The autopsy showed he was shot three times -- once in the head with a .22, once in the chest with a 9mm and once through the knee. She said police stopped taking her calls and the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office remained steadfast in its opinion. She enlisted the help of her brother, lawyer Chokwe Lumumba, to no avail.

The what-ifs come every night. If only the shooters could be brought to court, maybe that would ease her heart.

"He was my only son, my firstborn child," she said. "He didn't have a chance at a complete life.

"I just want to know why."

Fatal ricochet
Wayne County Circuit Judge Mary Waterstone knows that declaring a killing a justifiable homicide may close a case, but it doesn't always stop the ricochet.

In 2001, rivals Colden Foote and Carl Donaldson shot it out over control of a street corner. Foote was killed, and authorities said Donaldson acted in self-defense.

The situation still festered with Foote's younger brother Antoine.

In 2002, Antoine Foote and a companion believed they spotted Donaldson in a house near State Fair and 7 Mile. They didn't know Donaldson was in custody on another charge when Foote opened fire with an assault rifle.

The slugs ripped through the small bungalow and struck 8-year-old Brianna Caddell as she slept in bed.

Waterstone ordered Foote to serve a 30- to 50-year sentence for second-degree murder.

"Stupid," Waterstone said Wednesday. "Just stupid thinking. I know he was sorry it happened, but it was stupid thinking with emotions instead of brains. And an 8-year-old little girl is dead."

Waterstone said the existing law adequately allows for self-defense and a relaxation could mean more killings.

"It makes me weary and so very sad," she said. "We have enough tragedy."

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 5:50:52 AM EDT
I couldn't even finish reading the article. After awhile all it sounded like was "blah blah blah, guns = bad, blah blah blah, people with guns will shot everyone, blah blah blah.

They said all the same crap back when we were getting CCW passed in Michigan....and none of that came true. But the Brady Group is pissed about Florida passing a similar law and said they will make sure it doesn't pass in Michigan.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 5:57:15 AM EDT

Hill, 31, had gone to prison for weapons and drug violations, but his mother said his record didn't make him worthless.


"He was such a good boy."

I so hope it passes.


From 1999 to 2003, Detroit has logged more justifiable homicides than New York, Chicago, Los Angeles or the seven other biggest cities. And the rate at which Detroiters have legally killed is nearly double that of the next highest cities, according to the most recent FBI records.


This either means our bad guys are slow learners, or our good guys are better shots.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 5:58:23 AM EDT
avg reaction time to a 911 call in Detroit is over 3 hours.

I am sure Detroit would want this passed.


Heck I live in a great area..I want it passed.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 6:01:05 AM EDT
Death, in some cases, is good as it accelerates the process of rehabilitation through reincarnation. In the case of the 8 year old, it was tragic. However, in the other examples, it was a societal cleansing of its filfth. There is one thing lacking in the proposed legislation: immunity from tort liability. That, perhaps, should be addressed on a state level.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 6:01:22 AM EDT
"Thou shalt not kill" is just bad doctrine. If someone is that ignorant of basic biblical precepts, then perhaps she is going to hell in a handbasket.

A better translation from the original would be "You shall not murder".
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 6:06:25 AM EDT
Since when do liberals use the bible as their source of guidance?

When it serves their purpose. That's when.
But we should never use it.
Or reference it directly, or indirectly.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:28:28 AM EDT
In 2001, rivals Colden Foote and Carl Donaldson shot it out over control of a street corner. Foote was killed, and authorities said Donaldson acted in self-defense.

The situation still festered with Foote's younger brother Antoine.

In 2002, Antoine Foote and a companion believed they spotted Donaldson in a house near State Fair and 7 Mile. They didn't know Donaldson was in custody on another charge when Foote opened fire with an assault rifle.

The slugs ripped through the small bungalow and struck 8-year-old Brianna Caddell as she slept in bed.

Waterstone ordered Foote to serve a 30- to 50-year sentence for second-degree murder.

"Stupid," Waterstone said Wednesday. "Just stupid thinking. I know he was sorry it happened, but it was stupid thinking with emotions instead of brains. And an 8-year-old little girl is dead."

Waterstone said the existing law adequately allows for self-defense and a relaxation could mean more killings.


What the hell does THIS have to do with self defense in one's home or vehicle? How could such a law affect this in any way?

As far as "Thou shalt not kill..." the original actually translates as "Thou shalt not MURDER". The Bible clearly says that one may defend himself against intruders.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:38:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By out-a-ammo:

<snip>

"He was such a good boy."

<snip>




They always seem to just be getting ready to start a new job or about to volunteer in the local senior citizen's center.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:40:26 AM EDT
That's the kind of crap the Freep puts out.

Vague mumbo jumbo, combining the applicable with extreme examples that may not apply at all and saying they're the same. And always- ALWAYS - identifying with the deceased families.

Like I'm supposed to feel bad for the family of the guy that did crimes for a living. I do not care if he was the primary breadwinner- his "job" was ripping people off!

I SO hope this passes.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:45:09 AM EDT



i love the part where the article makes it seem bad that people don't trust the government and that they [unreasonably] want to protect themselves and their family.

*NEWSFLASH*

you can't trust the government, and

if you can't take care of you and yours, nobody else is going to.


Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:54:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
That's the kind of crap the Freep puts out.

Vague mumbo jumbo, combining the applicable with extreme examples that may not apply at all and saying they're the same. And always- ALWAYS - identifying with the deceased families.

Like I'm supposed to feel bad for the family of the guy that did crimes for a living. I do not care if he was the primary breadwinner- his "job" was ripping people off!

I SO hope this passes.



Remember the story they did about the bar owner that shot the guy that was trying to rob him in the parking lot of the bar? The Free Press kept referring to the dead robber as the victim. Pissed me off to no end! The intent of that story was to show how CCW will cause death.

Even in that story, the guy having the pistol had nothing to do with CCW, he was at work, and as such, could legally have his gun without a CCW.



Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:58:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

*NEWSFLASH*

you can't trust the government, and

if you can't take care of you and yours, nobody else is going to.





Police place themselves between you and a bullet? Not likely. You have to be ready to repel boarders at any time. OCT 1 FL's new improved Castle Doctrine goes into effect.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:06:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By out-a-ammo:

Originally Posted By macman37:
That's the kind of crap the Freep puts out.

Vague mumbo jumbo, combining the applicable with extreme examples that may not apply at all and saying they're the same. And always- ALWAYS - identifying with the deceased families.

Like I'm supposed to feel bad for the family of the guy that did crimes for a living. I do not care if he was the primary breadwinner- his "job" was ripping people off!

I SO hope this passes.



Remember the story they did about the bar owner that shot the guy that was trying to rob him in the parking lot of the bar? The Free Press kept referring to the dead robber as the victim. Pissed me off to no end! The intent of that story was to show how CCW will cause death.

Even in that story, the guy having the pistol had nothing to do with CCW, he was at work, and as such, could legally have his gun without a CCW.






I remember... I was furious about that one!
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:20:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By out-a-ammo:

Hill, 31, had gone to prison for weapons and drug violations, but his mother said his record didn't make him worthless.




I am sure this is true. Assaulting a man definitely made him worthless, however.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 12:09:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 12:14:40 PM EDT by out-a-ammo]

Prosecutors Kym Worthy and David Gorcyca said last week they oppose the new law.

Oakland County's Gorcyca, president-elect of the Prosecuting Attorneys Association of Michigan, said the bill is "a very dangerous proposition that greatly expands the use of deadly force. It's just bad public policy."



This dork is going to be on the radio talking about the bill at about 5:00. This should get my blood boiling.

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