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Posted: 1/13/2006 10:28:16 AM EDT
BBC NEWS
China map lays claim to Americas
A map due to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week may lend weight to a theory a Chinese admiral discovered America before Christopher Columbus.

The map, which shows North and South America, apparently states that it is a 1763 copy of another map made in 1418.

If true, it could imply Chinese mariners discovered and mapped America decades before Columbus' 1492 arrival.

The map, which is being dated to check it was made in 1763, faces a lot of scepticism from experts.

Chinese characters written beside the map say it was drawn by Mo Yi Tong and copied from a map made in the 16th year of the Emperor Yongle, or 1418.

It clearly shows Africa and Australia, though the UK is not marked.

Controversial claim

The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.

According to the Economist magazine, Mr Liu only became aware of the map's potential significance after he read a book by British author Gavin Menzies.

The book, 1421: The Year China discovered America, made the controversial claim that a Chinese admiral and eunuch, Zheng He, sailed around the world and discovered America on the way.

Zheng He, a Muslim mariner and explorer, is widely thought to have sailed around South East Asia and India, but the claim he visited America is hotly disputed.

The map is now being tested to check the age of its paper and ink, with the results due to be known in February.

Even if it does prove to have been drawn in 1763, sceptics will point out that we still only have the mapmaker's word that he copied if from a 1418 map, rather than from a more recent one.

But for some, this would still not make the Chinese admiral the first modern discoverer of the Americas, as they believe that Viking Leif Eriksson sailed to north America in the year 1000.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm

Published: 2006/01/13 13:23:28 GMT

© BBC MMVI
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:34:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
BBC NEWS
China map lays claim to Americas
A map due to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week may lend weight to a theory a Chinese admiral discovered America before Christopher Columbus.

The map, which shows North and South America, apparently states that it is a 1763 copy of another map made in 1418.

If true, it could imply Chinese mariners discovered and mapped America decades before Columbus' 1492 arrival.

The map, which is being dated to check it was made in 1763, faces a lot of scepticism from experts.

Chinese characters written beside the map say it was drawn by Mo Yi Tong and copied from a map made in the 16th year of the Emperor Yongle, or 1418.

It clearly shows Africa and Australia, though the UK is not marked.

Controversial claim

The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.

According to the Economist magazine, Mr Liu only became aware of the map's potential significance after he read a book by British author Gavin Menzies.

The book, 1421: The Year China discovered America, made the controversial claim that a Chinese admiral and eunuch, Zheng He, sailed around the world and discovered America on the way.

Zheng He, a Muslim mariner and explorer, is widely thought to have sailed around South East Asia and India, but the claim he visited America is hotly disputed.

The map is now being tested to check the age of its paper and ink, with the results due to be known in February.

Even if it does prove to have been drawn in 1763, sceptics will point out that we still only have the mapmaker's word that he copied if from a 1418 map, rather than from a more recent one.

But for some, this would still not make the Chinese admiral the first modern discoverer of the Americas, as they believe that Viking Leif Eriksson sailed to north America in the year 1000.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm

Published: 2006/01/13 13:23:28 GMT

© BBC MMVI



Big deal. Even if it's true, the vikings were here long before any other foreign visitor. That's not even mentioning the space aliens!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:36:08 AM EDT
How can you discover a land WITH PEOPLE LIVING ON IT. Hey, I discovered your car, joink, I took your stero, ya know, cuz I found it,.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:36:23 AM EDT
The Vikings were here before the Chinese. My Uncle use to rent a property in Mass that had like a outdoor "Cellar" (for a better term), inside were clearly visible Viking markings in the granite rock. Several College researchers came there to authenticate it and it was authentic.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:36:35 AM EDT
"I, for one, welcome our new Chinese overlords."
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:38:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 10:40:11 AM EDT by Avalon01]
China finding Australia isn't much of a stretch. Lot's of land and islands between China and Australia. Most of it would have had plenty of game and fruits to eat.

Discovering America? That would be impressive. The Pacific is a whole lot of nothing.

Vikings still beat almost everyone.

Av.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:40:24 AM EDT
I smell....
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:42:38 AM EDT
I sold my brother a pirate map when we were kids. It was authentic but the booty was gone.

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 10:56:53 AM EDT
I read a book called 1421 a few years ago that discusses this...pretty interesting. The author shows shipwrecks of Chinese ships all along the coast of South America and up to California. They's also the fact that Inca statues show faces of people with slanted eyes that look very much like Asians. He also mentions DNA studies that show that a large percentage of South Americans have Asian DNA
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:02:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:05:40 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
The Vikings were here before the Chinese. My Uncle use to rent a property in Mass that had like a outdoor "Cellar" (for a better term), inside were clearly visible Viking markings in the granite rock. Several College researchers came there to authenticate it and it was authentic.



The Chinese were not here this map is a badly thought out hoax.

I saw a picture of the supposed map… It is not AT ALL believable.

The map shows COMPLETE outlines of both coasts Pacific and ATLANTIC North and South America on what amounts to COMPLETE global map... Including New Zealand, Antarctica, Yucatan, and what looks to be the entrance to the St. Lawrence River.

We are to believe the Chinese completely navigated the entire perimeter of North and South America and had a basic global map...

This level of exploration took the Europeans well over 100 years and involved tens of thousands of people and hundreds and hundreds of ships… It would have required the same of the Chinese.

Thousands of people involved and no historic record of it ANYWHERE on paper on in the collective memory…

Even the Vikings left something and some record and they just visited a minuscule part of North America for just a few years.

The Chinese would have us believe this information was a secret or lost it for 600+ years.

It is not believable.

This map is...


Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:05:58 AM EDT
It's a fake, like all their other products.

You can tell because it says

Pand Mcna11y in the corner
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:06:27 AM EDT
So the actually owned America long before most Americans actually started sending them all their cash?





Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:07:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:



The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.




They spelled his name wrong.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:10:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:12:41 AM EDT by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I smell....



www.pbs.org/previews/1421/

Read the book 1421. It was written by Gavin Menzies, a former British Royal Navy Officer.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:12:40 AM EDT
Actually, you are all wrong. The map, of course is a fake. The Vikings were here long before then, but the Russians were here first. They crossed over the land bridge to alaska and expanded south and east forming the native American peoples. Therefor, we belonged to Russia long before we belonged to the Vikings or the Chinese.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:17:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:19:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:
Actually, you are all wrong. The map, of course is a fake. The Vikings were here long before then, but the Russians were here first. They crossed over the land bridge to alaska and expanded south and east forming the native American peoples. Therefor, we belonged to Russia long before we belonged to the Vikings or the Chinese.



I dont think Russia existed in 1421...maybe some Siberian Eskimo/Indians came over
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By warlord:



The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.




They spelled his name wrong.

tabmok99.mortalkombatonline.com/mk2.nes.liu.jump.kick.jpg



Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:23:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By warlord:



The map was bought for about $500 from a Shanghai dealer in 2001 by a Chinese lawyer and collector, Liu Gang.




They spelled his name wrong.

tabmok99.mortalkombatonline.com/mk2.nes.liu.jump.kick.jpg



FINISH HIM!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:24:17 AM EDT
China has made claims on the Ameriacas before, based on the idea that the people who crossed the land bridge came out of northern China.

Chinese have always considered themselves superior to other races, and by claiming kinship to native Americans they make themselves party to their hardships.

It's all propaganda for internal consumption,drumming up support for an eventual conflict with the US.

The long term goal is control of our farmland and natural resources, they need more room or less people to continue to grow, a conflict with the US will give them both.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:25:56 AM EDT
Don't forget about Brendan the Navigator born in 484 A.D.

www.castletown.com/brendan.htm

And there are even earlier Greek and Phoenician legends of journeys to mysterious lands across the Atlantic before the time of Christ.

www.over-land.com/trbefore.html
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:26:09 AM EDT
It's a fairly common belief in historians that a Chinese admiral once landed in Mexico. They've found Chinese artifacts in caves with native indian artifacts, all dating from the same approximate time. Records from the admiral's expedition back this up, though some of the details are pretty screwy.

Of course, others contend that the Minoans or whoever also landed in South America and died there during an attempted voyage around Africa. Stupid storms knocking people so off course they end up in different hemispheres.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:26:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I smell....



www.pbs.org/previews/1421/

Read the book 1421. It was written by Gavin Menzies, a former British Royal Navy Officer.

images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0553815229.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg



I can show you books that say aliens visit earth daily… that is bullshit just like the Chinese discovered America.

I don’t give a damn who wrote the book this is Chinese government sponsored horseshit very similar to the old Soviet habit of claiming and providing supposed proof that everything was discovered or invented in mother Russia or by the Communist Party… and the same sinister undercurrents apply.

This is fake history to justify future Chinese expansive intentions.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:26:59 AM EDT
I read that book. The evidence was very thin and almost entirely circumstantial.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:27:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
It's a fairly common belief in historians that a Chinese admiral once landed in Mexico. They've found Chinese artifacts in caves with native indian artifacts, all dating from the same approximate time. Records from the admiral's expedition back this up, though some of the details are pretty screwy.

Of course, others contend that the Minoans or whoever also landed in South America and died there during an attempted voyage around Africa. Stupid storms knocking people so off course they end up in different hemispheres.



Haliburton, BACK IN THE DAY
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:27:49 AM EDT
A later regime in China burned all the records of voyages ourside of China, so their claim has no paperwork to back it up. Who cares. China is already running a significant portion of this country now so complete control is only a matter of years away anyways.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:28:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:31:02 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By K2QB3:
China has made claims on the Ameriacas before, based on the idea that the people who crossed the land bridge came out of northern China.

Chinese have always considered themselves superior to other races, and by claiming kinship to native Americans they make themselves party to their hardships.

It's all propaganda for internal consumption,drumming up support for an eventual conflict with the US.

The long term goal is control of our farmland and natural resources, they need more room or less people to continue to grow, a conflict with the US will give them both.



+1 that is exactly what is behind this fabricated/phony history.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:29:54 AM EDT
Revisionists again. Ban 'em! MJD
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:30:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/index.asp



I find this to be a pretty good explanation of why we have accurate maps of the world before it was first circumnavigated. Doesn't mean the Chinese necessarily did it, but someone mapped the entire world before the Europeans did.

I think it was the
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:31:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:58:10 AM EDT by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:
Actually, you are all wrong. The map, of course is a fake. The Vikings were here long before then, but the Russians were here first. They crossed over the land bridge to alaska and expanded south and east forming the native American peoples. Therefor, we belonged to Russia long before we belonged to the Vikings or the Chinese.



There was no Russia, or China for that matter, 12,000 years ago when humans first crossed the Bering Land Bridge. Just a civilization of hunter gatherers from north east Asia following food.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:42:58 AM EDT
we're here now.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 11:57:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 12:25:57 PM EDT by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By K2QB3:
China has made claims on the Ameriacas before, based on the idea that the people who crossed the land bridge came out of northern China.

Chinese have always considered themselves superior to other races, and by claiming kinship to native Americans they make themselves party to their hardships.

It's all propaganda for internal consumption,drumming up support for an eventual conflict with the US.

The long term goal is control of our farmland and natural resources, they need more room or less people to continue to grow, a conflict with the US will give them both.



Cripes, that sounds like the uneducated shit you hear at gun shows. Yeah, it's all a big conspiracy. Pick up a book will you.

And there is no "laying claim" here, if you've ever worked in the press, you know how they like sensationalize a headline to stir up readership. Seems to have worked well on the impressionable folks here.

China is HUGE country that is not exactly hurting for farmland, I can assure you they are not going to wage global war so that they can have Nebraska. They do need oil, but you think they are looking to get it by trying to overrun the US?

And just about every culture/race has held them to be superior to others at one point or another. I don't ever remember China systematically exterminating millions of Jews/Indians or enslaving millions of Africans though.

China is not an expansionist nation/culture, never has been. If you are about to bring up Tibet or Taiwan, that just shows how limited your understanding of history is. It's always easier to fear than to learn the facts.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:01:57 PM EDT


DNA Evidence of Mazatec People of Mexico (Olmec culture)

1. Principal DNA Report relied upon

(a) Title: H.L.A. Genes and the Origins of the Amerindians.

(b) Author: Dr Felipe Vilchis



2. Précis of the Report’s findings

“The results of the filogenetic analysis reported here support the idea that the autochthonous pueblos based in Meso-America and South America had common ancestors, with as many coming with the migratory wave from the north as those that took the transpacific route.” (GM’s emphasis) Allelic distribution amongst the Mazatecs showed a genotypic pattern that was very similar to that found amongst Asian peoples, that is to say, 23% of the population had an LL genotype. In addition there was detected an heterozygote transition G – A that replaced an alanine with a treonine…in eight individuals … which represents a very high incidence.”





3. Corroboration or supporting DNA Reports

(i) A Arnaiz-Villena - refer to Bibliography.

(ii) J Granados.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:11:41 PM EDT
I'm surprised that no ones has mentioned that Galicians from the Iberian peninsula were fishing for cod and hunting whales off the coast of North America centuries before Columbus' voyages.
The fishers kept these fishing grounds an uber-secret due to their productivity.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:17:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
I read a book called 1421 a few years ago that discusses this...pretty interesting. The author shows shipwrecks of Chinese ships all along the coast of South America and up to California. They's also the fact that Inca statues show faces of people with slanted eyes that look very much like Asians. He also mentions DNA studies that show that a large percentage of South Americans have Asian DNA



+2

I read the book too.

It very very interesting and an easy read.

The author is a ex-Submarine commander in the British navy and his hobby is cartography ( syudy of maps ) and he discovered some old maps in a museum and the rest is in the book.

LB
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:28:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:
we're here now.



exactly. I don't understand why a lot of you guys here somehow feel threatened by this should it turn out to be true.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:30:42 PM EDT
it doesn't matter, when the aliens come back to reclaim Earth and enslave us, the point is moot!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:32:33 PM EDT
How long are they giving us to vacate?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:33:42 PM EDT
Bull
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:42:16 PM EDT
When historians say, "Columbus discovered America," they mean "He discovered it for Western Civilization," i.e., Us, you and me. Last time I checked China was not western civilization.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:47:38 PM EDT
If this turns out to be true, China in no way 'laid claim' to the Americas. At most it was just another place to trade with and some Chinese stayed and incorporated themselves into the cultures they found
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:50:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Schulze:
When historians say, "Columbus discovered America," they mean "He discovered it for Western Civilization," i.e., Us, you and me. Last time I checked China was not western civilization.




So you're saying that the Vikings weren't civilized?


Sheesh. Rape and pillage a few towns, and suddenly you're the bad guys. It's PC run amuck, I say!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:52:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:
It's a fake, like all their other products.

You can tell because it says

Pand Mcna11y Land McNarry in the corner




Fixed it for ya
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:54:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
I smell....



...and a Chinese fart.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:56:35 PM EDT
Like to see them try and make good on their claim. I'll be waiting with a sammich and a pile of ammo...

Nick
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:56:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
China finding Australia isn't much of a stretch. Lot's of land and islands between China and Australia. Most of it would have had plenty of game and fruits to eat.

Discovering America? That would be impressive. The Pacific is a whole lot of nothing.

Vikings still beat almost everyone.

Av.



The distance from China to North America is not as far as you think.... take a look where Alaska is in relation to China.

That said, I'm not all that sure this story holds much water.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:57:55 PM EDT
Big F-ing Deal. Vikings, Chinese, Polynesians, Phoenecians, Irish monks in a tub... whatever.

Columbus is the one that "stuck"

When the freakin' chinese own the moon 50 years from now, no one will remember that Neil Armstrong got there first.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 12:58:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:

Originally Posted By sirensong:
we're here now.



exactly. I don't understand why a lot of you guys here somehow feel threatened by this should it turn out to be true.



I agree, people are so conservative here though, if any new thoughts are intrduced into their head, they act like someone is trying to kill them. Hell, even when new guns are introduced, the first thing that people do here is shit on it. "What the hell did they make this for?" "It don't do nothing for me that my XXX already does" "I don't like it" Fuckin a, change is like krytonite to these folks.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:02:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Schulze:
When historians say, "Columbus discovered America," they mean "He discovered it for Western Civilization," i.e., Us, you and me. Last time I checked China was not western civilization.




So you're saying that the Vikings weren't civilized?


Sheesh. Rape and pillage a few towns, and suddenly you're the bad guys. It's PC run amuck, I say!



Well, if they ever weren't, Capitol One set them right.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:03:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 1:04:26 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By WesDesRat:

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
China finding Australia isn't much of a stretch. Lot's of land and islands between China and Australia. Most of it would have had plenty of game and fruits to eat.

Discovering America? That would be impressive. The Pacific is a whole lot of nothing.

Vikings still beat almost everyone.

Av.



The distance from China to North America is not as far as you think.... take a look where Alaska is in relation to China.

That said, I'm not all that sure this story holds much water.



It is a VERY VERY long way to the US east coast... which this bullshit map shows.

It is not even a good lie only a child would believe this map is real.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:11:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sirensong:
we're here now.



Glad someone else thought of that as well.. But if they wanna lay claim to mexico, I don't really see a problem..
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