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Posted: 8/22/2005 1:54:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:02:35 PM EDT by CFII]
I was visited today by two very nice gentleman from the ATF today at my home. The reason they showed up is below:

About 4 months ago I traded a complete AR15 lower and other things for an HKP7 from someone on this board. It was an out of state transfer, so I shipped to his FFL, and he shipped the pistol to mine. Everything was fine and dandy. Well, about a month ago I found out thru the gunstore I work for that the ATF ran a gun registration check on the phone, and it was in my name. I got kinda scared, but a month passed by, and I heard nothing more.

Today: The men show up, tell me why they are there, and asked me some questions. When did I sell it, who did I sell it to, etc. This is my problem. I shipped it to his FFL, and I do have the FFL info, but I dont have a shipping recipt anymore. I am going to give them the FFL info and an approximate date of the transfer. Did I do anything wrong? Shouldnt the FFL that transferred it to him have the info? What if his FFL backdoor transferred it?

I know I followed the law, but Im afraid of what is going to happen. The ATF guys were real nice, and said this is what they do ALL day, and If I was REALLY in trouble I would know it....

I need a drink


Any advice? Please? No ATF bashing bullshit.

OO OOO EDIT: The reason they were contacting me is that this weapon was found at the scene of a CRIME. FUCK!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:57:06 PM EDT
Contact the guy you sold/traded the AR lower to and ask for copies of whatever documentation he has.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:58:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:59:24 PM EDT by Tango7]

Originally Posted By CFII:
The ATF guys were real nice, and said this is what they do ALL day, and If I was REALLY in trouble I would know it....



Because they'd be wearing body armor, and have a warrant, not a notepad

When Uncle knocks, he usually brings more than enough to make you really uncomfortable, unless you like "mystery meat surprise" on the tray with your jello...

Something happened, that's for sure.

But as long as you complied with the law (which it sounds like you did) you're just a note on a case, not the "respondent / defendant" .


I need a drink




ETA: Try to get copies of the shipping info from the carrier.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:59:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:00:50 PM EDT by hd_pancho]
Sounds like you did everything right. I wouldn't be too concerned. Unless you have a dogkitten, of course...
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:24 PM EDT
if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear... That's how I approach ALL encounters with law enforcement. If these were FTF deals, or if you had shipped across state lines to private person, that's one thing. But it sounds like you ollowed the law just fine..... Did you ask your FFL if this hapens regualrly?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:32 PM EDT
Who did you ship it through?
They'll have a record of the shipment.

Did you get a copy of the receiving FFL's FFL or did you go through your FFL.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:03:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Who did you ship it through?
They'll have a record of the shipment.

Did you get a copy of the receiving FFL's FFL or did you go through your FFL.

Good luck.



I used a FedEx kinkos store. It was about 4 months ago, think they will still have it?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:05:02 PM EDT
Ohhh. So you were the original owner and it was later used in a crime. Now it makes more sense.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06:21 PM EDT
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.

You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06:35 PM EDT
Hell yes!


Originally Posted By CFII:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
Who did you ship it through?
They'll have a record of the shipment.

Did you get a copy of the receiving FFL's FFL or did you go through your FFL.

Good luck.



I used a FedEx kinkos store. It was about 4 months ago, think they will still have it?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:07:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:10:55 PM EDT by rjroberts]
As long as you have the FFL, you should be OK. Yes, some might say you can't prove you shipped it to him/her, but that won't matter. Obviously it went somewhere. And a shipping receipt would only prove you sent a box, not what was in it - I know it woould be a partial help, though.. They probably will check with the receiving FFL dealer, ,and his/her book should show the arrival. If it does, you are off the hook. If not, then you have a dishonest FFL and it probably will ahve happened to a lot of people. Why else would you have this person's FFL if somehting had not been bought? You don't make those things.

ETA: After seeing the update (crime scene), yes the agents were doing exactly what they were supposed to. They're probably contacting the field office in the receiving FFL's area and will look at the book within a couple of days. Nothing to worry about - they have to do the trace, and it's proper.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:08:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear... That's how I approach ALL encounters with law enforcement. If these were FTF deals, or if you had shipped across state lines to private person, that's one thing. But it sounds like you ollowed the law just fine..... Did you ask your FFL if this hapens regualrly?



+1. Gotta agree here. If you had anything to worry about, it would have happened when they showed up. Sounds like a routine follow up on something, that I'm sure you need not worry about. If you followed the law, and did nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:09:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.

You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal.




Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
I was visited today by two very nice gentleman from the ATF today at my home. The reason they showed up is below:

About 4 months ago I traded a complete AR15 lower and other things for an HKP7 from someone on this board.

OO OOO EDIT: The reason they were contacting me is that this weapon was found at the scene of a CRIME. FUCK!



YIKES
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:32 PM EDT
The burden of guilt is on them.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:13:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:20:14 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:21:54 PM EDT
If they traced the gun back to your FFL they are tracing it because it was used in a crime or they are building a case against the FFL you shipped it to. I assume you verified the FFL's address/license with the ATF FFLeZCheck system.

It doesn't sound like they are interested in you. With that said I would suggest that you discuss what occurred with a local criminal defense attorney or at least have the name and phone number of one in case you need it at a later date.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:22:49 PM EDT
1 Consult with an Attourney, some will help for free "pro bono" board member?
2 Follow the Attys. advice
3 Don't wring your hands endlessly, breathe easy and be confident.
4 Pray Alot! lol
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:22:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:26:22 PM EDT
They may also be building a "chain of custody" for the history of the weapon.

Manufacturer - distributor - Your FFL - CFII

CFII - receiving FFL - intended recipient / tradee.

Now whether or not the tradee / recipient used it in a crime, or had it stolen then used in a crime is still unknown.

You should be clean.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:28:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:28:29 PM EDT by yobo]
I wouldn't worry about it.
Around 1988 or 89 My friend sold a Colt AR to a guy in Arizona and had it shipped FFL to FFL. About a year later ATF came knocking on his door and asked about the AR. He showed the letter of sales that was faxed back and forth, FFL copy and the shipping tag. It seems that the lower was found at a drug dealer's house in Columbia along with many other guns from here. They never came back or called again.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:28:20 PM EDT
I'd say as long as you have the FFL from the receiving party you should be OK. They can send an agent to that location to check the bound book they are required to keep. Shouldn't be too difficult to track down...(provided the record keeping is accurate) I wouldn't sweat it too much.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:36:22 PM EDT
Well, I do have the recieving FFL info, and I was told that I can get the shipping info from FedEx. Hopefully that will be enough.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:38:39 PM EDT
What was the crime?
Is the crime solved?
Did someone on this board commit the crime?

Since you didn't commit the crime, the evidence will not point to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't watching you.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:39:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:41:13 PM EDT by Flyskate]
tag for further info
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:41:22 PM EDT
just one question..............is the FFL holder you sent the lower receiver to, the same person as the one that sent the pistol to your FFL?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:41:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By No_Serfing:
What was the crime?
Is the crime solved?
Did someone on this board commit the crime?

Since you didn't commit the crime, the evidence will not point to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't watching you.



This is what I know: The gun (or lower) was found at a crime scene. Period. End of story. And yes, I traded the lower to someone on this forum.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:42:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mobius:
just one question..............is the FFL holder you sent the lower receiver to, the same person as the one that sent the pistol to your FFL?



Yes. And that is why I KNOW I have the FFL info.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:48:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:53:01 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By CFII:

Originally Posted By mobius:
just one question..............is the FFL holder you sent the lower receiver to, the same person as the one that sent the pistol to your FFL?



Yes. And that is why I KNOW I have the FFL info.



then you don't have a problem..........you did everything legal if you sent it to the address on the FFL licence.........somebody on the sellers end either screwed the pooch, or the seller himself did something.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:48:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
About 4 months ago I traded a complete AR15 lower and other things for an HKP7 from someone on this board.

OO OOO EDIT: The reason they were contacting me is that this weapon was found at the scene of a CRIME. FUCK!




this'll be juicy!!!!!

Sounds like the crime was someone trading away an HKP7!

But seriously, you followed the rules. don't worry.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:49:04 PM EDT
Yikes, I have never kept shipping records, just the FFL. Now I can see how keeping the shipping records is a good idea too.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:49:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.

You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal.




Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it?



Actaully if it was FTF, it would be easier for him. Just say I sold it and do not know who to. End of story.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:55:40 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:57:17 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:58:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.

You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal.




Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it?



Nope.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:59:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 3:05:22 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By bookertbab:
Yikes, I have never kept shipping records, just the FFL. Now I can see how keeping the shipping records is a good idea too.

Good luck!



the few time I sold a gun to someone on the net, not only do I get their FFL number I sent the firearm to, verified by E-Z check, but who also bought it as well, I photocopy the money order, and the address of the guy .......and I keep all the shipping records I get from the carrier.........even when those times I sold FTF at a gun show, I get the person info off his DL, and he gets mine as well as the date..........you never know where your gun will end up.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:59:52 PM EDT
If you didn't do anything wrong, don't worry about it.

If you shipped to him without using an FFL, be afraid.

From what you say, you should be fine.

-John
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:00:08 PM EDT

Your first name isn't David, is it?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:03:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnDM:
If you didn't do anything wrong, don't worry about it.

If you shipped to him without using an FFL, be afraid.

From what you say, you should be fine.

-John



Went to an FFL. Period.


Thanks for the advice people. Im feeling better. In fact, I think I am going to go buy an new AR15 now.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:04:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 3:08:00 PM EDT by TacticalMan]

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it?



Why, NO, it doesn't!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:07:01 PM EDT
OK, since nobody else has asked, have we heard anything from the particular member of this board that the weapon was traded to?

Put 2 and 2 together here. Board member gets gun. One month later, gun is found at the scene of a crime. Who are we missing?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:07:05 PM EDT



Don't worry, you followed the law.

The SECOND time they visit is the time to be worried.



Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:16:24 PM EDT
Are you the first owner of the lower? Did you buy just the lower itself when you originally bought it? Have you ever posted a pic of the lower on the internet?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:19:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, 99% it is just bureaucratic BS... Don't let the nutcases who are gonna start screaming for you to lawyer up and such get to you.

You did it by the numbers. Let the guys do their job. No big deal.




Certainly makes you want to rethink face to face transfers, even where legal though doesn't it?



Nope.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:19:40 PM EDT
OK. Dumb question.

I buy and sell one or two guns a year. By no means am I a "dealer". I have no FFL.

I have sold many firearms over the years face to face either at gun shows, at my house, and other places. No FFL involved. No crime right?

I have never sold a firearm via the mail/UPS/Fed-X and etc. Is an FFL required by law to sell a firearm if neither I nor the buyer are gun dealers?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:20:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
Are you the first owner of the lower? Did you buy just the lower itself when you originally bought it? Have you ever posted a pic of the lower on the internet?



Yes, I was the original owner. Bought it from CTD as a stripped lower. I think I have posted a pic online before.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:23:03 PM EDT
you're being eliminated as a suspect, that's a good thing. Relax, take a deep breath, get on with your life.

Easier to say though when I'm not in your shoes. If anything, you helped people as well as yourself to keep records forever, you never know when they'll come in handy.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:38:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 3:40:51 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By Crock:


I have never sold a firearm via the mail/UPS/Fed-X and etc. Is an FFL required by law to sell a firearm if neither I nor the buyer are gun dealers?




if you are not a FFL holder, then no you are not required to have the FFL holders copy of his licence, in fact most FFL holders will not send you a copy of their licence, and the ATF recomends that they don't send the copy of the licence to a non-FFL.........simply because someone can easily forge that copy. all you need to do is to get the first few digits and last few digits of the licence, and verify that the person you are sending the rifle to, is in fact a legit FFL holder, and send that rifle, to the address that is on the ATF E-Z check..........don't send it to some other address.

the only time, that a firearm has to go from FFL to FFL, where licences are exchanged, is for handguns.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:44:22 PM EDT
Well your dog is still alive. I don't think you have much to worry about.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:19:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 5:13:17 PM EDT by Synister1]
Hmmm

OK who "was" it?
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