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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:07:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Bummer about the passenger. I also feel bad for everyone who got stuck in the traffic jam while the cops investigated the collision. I dont feel a bit of pity for the driver, she made her choise.
Cops do have a strange way of doing things in the southeast. They still shoot at the tires of fleeing vehicles down there. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:08:52 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:10:16 PM EDT
[#3]
The life of an outlaw is a hard one.
Don't play the game unless your prepared to pay up if you lose. As for the passenger - birds of a feather flock together - one must/ should chose their friends wisely. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:12:06 PM EDT
[#4]
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")
tell ya what, let me come up and bump draft any trooper at 80+ and see how he likes it (and yes, years ago I got a ticket and the officer came up and was right on my butt even though I was signalling to pull over before he was within 200 yards of my car) (edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out) |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:13:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Bummer.
Bet she won't do that again. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:20:07 PM EDT
[#6]
In Oregon, the using the PIT technique at speeds above (I believe) 40mph is considered potentially lethal force.
-Z |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:23:22 PM EDT
[#7]
that would seem to make sense.
Since passenger cars don't have full roll cages & harnesses, to say nothing of fuel cells and Nomex driver's suits & helmets, I'd have to think that deliberately precipitating a wreck at high speed would be homicide (what degree I would leave to the lawyers) |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:24:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Got what she deserved.
 CRC |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:27:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Better them than the me when she rear ends my ass doing 105!  And I don't think a trooper would endanger innocent peoples lives by running from the police when being pulled over either. Your statement there is ludicrous. As far as I'm concerned, if you lead the cops in a high speed chase, the cops should have the right to beat the crap out of you when they finally do get you stopped. Hate to hear about the passenger, but I have no remorse about the driver. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:28:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Like Chris Rock says,
"if the police have to chase you, they're bringing an ass-kicking with them" 
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:28:48 PM EDT
[#11]
The driver is a moron for all sorts of reasons.
#1: running from the police #1a: in a pathloser of all things! #2: operating at high speeds on public roads #2a: in a pathloser! Those things look unsafe at any speed above 25mph Stupid girl. Too bad it will cost us all in the end. I don't blame the cop for taking them out. At least the damage (death) is limited to the guilty that way. edited, I can't spel |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:31:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Yup, the driver killed herself if you ask me. The passenger wasn't very bright herself, she could have tried to stop her friend. *edited to add... Maybe I watch too much NASCAR, but I always want to spin those little shithead Fast and the Furious wannabes in their ricers. I can't stand people that purposely endanger the lives of others just so they can think they are cool weaving in an out of traffic chasing eachother down like a couple homos. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:34:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Yep! Since I don't have any of those things in my vehicle all the more reason for the cops to use lethal force to stop them before they kill me. How can this be prevented? Simple...pull the hell over when you see the damn blue lights in your rearview mirror. No one has the right to endager my life with a 2,000 lbs vehicle traveling in excess of 100 mph. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:35:20 PM EDT
[#14]
+1 |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:35:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Good. Two less warts on the ass of society.
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:40:50 PM EDT
[#16]
But the same doesn't apply when a drunk trooper goes out on the road at 100 MPH after drinking with his brother officers at a strip joint that evening (yet these officers, who write DUI's all the time couldn't tell he was drunk?) that any citizen should have the right to punt him (and beat the crap out of his buds when they "forget" for over a week that they were drinking with him that night? (noting that these are the guys who accept sex for traffic violations ) Let me tell you about how many times over the years I have been passed by a trooper going over 90 (no lights, no siren) and how many times I watch them get up and ride people's butts. That is every damn bit as hazardous as this person in her Pathfinder, but it doesn't give anyone the right to cause a wreck. I have no idea why she did not pull over, and she certainly should have lost her license and paid a fine. The death penalty? And for her passenger? Give me a break. What if the passenger was going into cardiac arrest? How many stories have you heard of guys driving their pregnant wives to the hospital & blowing redlights, then getting pulled over - maybe they should get the hell beat out of them too. The point is that a jury decides what a penalty is, not some hotshot cop playing Dukes of Hazzard or thinking he's Darryl Waltrip. (edited to add, yes, it is obvious that she should have pulled over, then again, maybe the first contact was a bump from a police car in pursuit, in which case I would be running too (and on the phone) |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:46:22 PM EDT
[#17]
What a fuckin moronic statement. Like this happens enough to really count. If more people were killed in hig-speed chases. Less chases would occur. But some will always find fault with the officer. That's why we have problems with drunk drivers and reckless police chases. Until society allows a strong punishment, they will continue to occur. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:47:01 PM EDT
[#18]
The chick chose unwisely... |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:52:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Every GSP Trooper I've ever met was Friendly and Courteous.
+1 for the Trooper. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 1:58:25 PM EDT
[#20]
People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck. Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase. Grow up. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:00:44 PM EDT
[#21]
I have to agree with this one. They have always seemed professional when I have unfortunately run across them. You play with fire, you will get burned.............. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:01:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Doing the PIT maneuver at high speeds and espcially against a SUV, is almost potentially fatal because the SUVs potential for roll-over. The only thing the driver is guilty of excess speed. How many of you folks drive faster than 75? The LE guy is not the judge and jury. They should've backed off and wait until the vehicle ran out of gas, and then bust'em.
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:02:20 PM EDT
[#23]
They should have shot the driver right off. To serve and protect....the public at large.
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:04:05 PM EDT
[#24]
I have to side with the troopers in this case. It's a sad incident, but was completely preventable. If only the driver had stopped, none of this would have happened. After she floored it, everything that happened was her own fault.
After a chase that goes 76 miles at dangerously high speeds, the troopers have to factor in danger to the public. So while it's a shame these girls had to die, it would have been more of a shame had these two nitwits lost control and wiped out a family. Again, had they stopped, none of this would have happened. I guess we have another video now for those John Bunnell "World's Scariest Police Chases" tv shows. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:04:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Oh really?
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04179/338159.stm http://www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=435739 http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/9378556.htm?1c
and so on... there are other cases, which if I have nothiong better to do, I can go dig up. The point is, there have been quite a few accidents involving officers and I don't hear anyone saying "good" yet someone on the road being chased for an unknown reason expires and there's a celebration (to say nothing of the passenger, who is being blamed for not stopping the driver - wow)
The logic of that statement is priceless.
No, this is not cop bashing, this is reckless cop bashing. You go punt a car going 80 MPH and see what happens. That is lethal force. Are you saying that speeders who do not pull over are free targets for execution? Let's just use a TOW and blast the vehicle.
I'm no fan of drunk or reckless drivers, equally I am no fan of hotdogs who play bumper cars with 3500 pound vehicles, and feel their department grants them the right to do so (without thinking about the outcome) There are cases where I absolutely stand 100% behind the police, I would say most fall under that category. This one, at face value, seems questionable at best. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:05:54 PM EDT
[#26]
I think you need to grow up. She didnt die because she was speeding. She died because she was putting the lives of INNOCENT people at risk and she did it for 76 miles!!! Its not like she didnt pull over in 30-seconds. Once again, she had pleanty of time to pull over ; her behaviour is worse then shooting into a crowd!!! Have you ever seen an innocent bistander killed by a speeder? I have. She died and I'm glad teh police put an end to it. Otherwise she would have probably killed someone. It happens every day! |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:07:22 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:10:05 PM EDT
[#28]
DAMN IT! DON'T RUN FROM THE COPS! IT'S THAT BRAIN-DEAD SIMPLE!
If you run from the PD at 80+ MPH in a SUV, you are placing others in danger of death or great bodily harm... IMHO, the cop did EXACTLY the right thing -> take 'em out before they kill someone... Don't like it... Hmm... DON'T RUN FROM THE COPS, AND THEY WON'T SPIN OUT YOUR CAR!!! I'd rather see that SUV wrapped around a tree than see the occupants get away because of som BS rule about chases... |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:11:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Oh good grief. Have you ever even been on I-95? If you drove 65 MPH you would get mowed down (and probably cause a massive pileup). This isn't blowing through a school zone at Warp factor 9. Should she have pulled over? Yes. Why didn't she? None of us know. Did she or her passenger deserve to die? Not in my world. Let's shoot all speeders, do it for the children. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:12:19 PM EDT
[#30]
The attitudes here are right on, you are just letting emotions cloud your judgement. She didn't die because she was speeding. She didn't even die because she ran. She died because she was driving at idiotic speeds and endangering the lives of innocent people who had no part in her stupid behavior. So after 76 long miles in which she could have stopped, she pressed on, risking the lives of everyone on that highway. She was taken out. It makes no difference that she was endangering the lives of people in an SUV or if she was doing so with a firearm. Both can be deadly weapons. Would you like to be rammed with a 3500 lb vehicle going in excess of 100 mph? Me, my sympathy goes out to those who were placed in that situation outside their wishes by these nitwits. All they had to do was stop and they refused. In doing so they not only risked their lives, but the lives of the cops who had to chase her stupid ass and the general public. She met the end she created. Simple as that. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:18:08 PM EDT
[#31]
The law applies to them just like it does to us. I've personally reported police from everything to throwing a cigarette butt out the window of their patrol car to speeding with no lights or sirens when they weren't in response to a call. The sheriff here is a customer of mine and he doesn't tolerate it.
Again, same as above. But to address the red, if they hadn't stopped her that's exactly what she was going to do! Cause a wreck where some innocent person or family dies! Whay would you have the cops do? Say, "Ah the hell with it. She isn't going to stop just let her go," 
Yet again, why should I get the death penalty for her not chosing to pull the hell over for doing 16 mph over the speed limit?
I said, "As far as I'm concerned..." in regards to beating the hell out of them. That's just my personal opinion and you and I both know that would never happen in real life. And if someone is having a medical problem, they should pull the hell over and let the cop know what the hell is going on. Chances are one of two things will happen. The cop will be able to get them medical treatment on the scene a lot faster or give them an escort which would be a hell of a lot safer than them blowing through red lights without a police escort.
On the phone? The chase went 76 miles. How long would it take to figure out they are real cops with a legitimate reason for pulling you over. And come on, the first contact might have been a bump from a police car? Reaching there aren't you? Probably more like she had a bag of weed on her and din't want to get caught with it...all the more reason to legalize/decriminalize the stuff but that's another thread. ...and yeah, I'm the one reaching there. Let's just wait and see if they find out why she was actually running. I'm sorry. I just don't think the cops should back off when these people try to run from them if they are able to stop them...by any means necessary. Their high speed puts my and my family's life in danger. If they want to put me in danger by not pulling over then they better be willing to pay the consequences of their actions. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:18:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Yes, I speed... But if I get busted, I PULL OVER... I do not take off at top speed (weather it's 86 or 155, matters not) and try to get away... It's not SPEEDING that got her killed, it's RUNNING FROM THE POLICE! |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:19:07 PM EDT
[#33]
+1 |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:22:36 PM EDT
[#34]
No one claimed they were trying to be judge and jury. They were trying to stop them from killing someone else. Not exactly how you back off and not lose sight of them when they're doing 105. Unless they had a helicopter over the scene. But even then, I doubt they would just slow down after the cops backed off. Can you see someone actually thinking they got away on a freeway when they see cops back off and then slowing back down to a reasonable speed? I just don't see it happening. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:23:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Don't mean to flame ya here, pard (well, maybe I do) but you've been watching too many reruns of "The Dukes". Southern law enforcement is pretty advanced. In fact, the GSP doesn't do anything the CHP doesn't do. And, no, I'm not GSP.... |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:23:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Nobody is arguing that she shouldn't have pulled over. What is being debated is if the officer exercised good judgment by spinning out a vehicle going over 40 MPH on an Interstate. Note that this is I-95, not Elm Street in Mayberry, and 90 MPH+ is not uncommon. Painting the picture like this was the deathmobile rampaging through kindergarten playgrounds makes for a good tearjerker, but it is not quite accurate (put another way - go out on I95 and go 40 and you WILL get rammed by a vehicle going over 80 MPH, good chance it will be a truck too, which does a hell of a lot more damage than a Pathfinder going 100) We agree she was stupid. Let's agree to disagree as to whether she deserved to lose her life for speeding on I95. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:31:07 PM EDT
[#37]
In anticipation of the legal wranglings and the press coverage to follow this incident, the real question is:
We're the SUV occupants black or white? |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:31:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Of course, that's what the internet is for!
Yup, prolly a scared kid, when you're in your teens & early twenties you do things that (in retrospect) are pretty dumb. I would have had no prob with stop sticks (is that what they're called? the things that flatten tires?) and then had she wrecked, well c'est la vie - but spinning a car out at high speed has NO OTHER OUTCOME than wrecking the car, and for a high C of G vehicle that means rolling it or sending it endo.
Oh I agree (about not backing off) - but the line from pursuit to termination with prejudice may have been crossed here. Unless they had info that the occupants were armed bankrobbers or something, it seems like too much response (someone can chime in with the force continuum explanation here) |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:32:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Ever seen a vehicle rear-ended by another that was going 40 MPH faster? It isn't a pretty sight. You would feel differently if you or a family member had been the one she ran over and killed while being stupid enough to endanger the lives of literally hundreds of people during her little drive down the highway. There aren't many ways to stop a car in a high speed pursuit on an interstate highway. And letting someone continue until the decide to stop or run out of gas is not an option on a highway as busy as this one. Before you criticise a LEO for putting their own life in jeopardy (it's not too safe for the chase car to do this either) think about what you would choose if your family had been a couple of miles in front of this driver when they were taken out. She got what she deserved. Sorry for the passenger though. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:33:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Speeding wasn't the issue. Speeding would have gotten her a ticket. I speed all the time on the freeways. I don't weave in and out of traffic, I don't tailgate, and I always signal. Speed limits are silly. It's called reasonable and prudent. However, currently the law is the law and if a stater were to get behind me and want me to pull over, I would. I would take my ticket and be on the way. It was her choice to run and endanger innocent citizens that got her killed. I applaud the actions of the state patrolman.
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:34:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Disagree!! The driver is also guilty eluding, and – far more importantly - of wontedly placing the lives of innocent people in grave danger. While I’m not happy that she and her passenger died, better them than some innocent family who was just driving down the road. After 76 miles of this, it was time for it to end!! Deadly force IMHO was justified. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:37:52 PM EDT
[#42]
You would run from a police car that bumped you? I guess we just ain't gonna agree on tactics here.... Do you really think the passenger was having a heart attack or having a baby, and that's what caused all this? How do you think someone is going to catch a speeder if they run with lights all the time? Some hotshot playing Darrel Waltrip--dude, you're so far off base that you're not even in the park. Any chance you've got a few violations on your record...? |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:39:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Actually, I've been in a (stopped) vehicle that was rear-ended by a pickup going 60 MPH. Pushed our car over 200 feet, put the rear bumper in the backseat, my leg through the heater core and my girlfriend into the windshield. (wrapped the steering wheel around my arm too, which I had put across her just before impact) I should also note that was not on a limited access highway and we were stopped (legally) to turn into an establishment on the other side of the road. Was she a hazard? Absolutely, especially when she did not pull over. But as stated earlier, unless she was a known violent offender, what was the point of putting her car into the weeds (trees) when they could have tailed her till she ran out of gas. 76 miles in a Pathfinder has got to be 1/3 of a tank, maybe more at high speeds - plenty of time for a rolling roadblock ahead (we're talking an hour roughly from start to finish) or stop sticks - punting an SUV leads to certain injury or death (vs. backing off and getting more support - what about a couple of truckers to line up side by side?) |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:40:07 PM EDT
[#44]
No, she died because she could have killed me and several others with such an idiotic stunt. And would have, no doubt, had she been allowed to continue. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:40:09 PM EDT
[#45]
You know, I bet this Georgia trooper would have much rather used the PIT manuever while doing 30 mph and I'm also willing to bet he regrets these girls died. But the simple fact is they were on an interstate. They weren't on city streets or a winding country road with hairpin turns. There was no place on the interstate in which they could have found an opening at low speed to pull such a maneuver. There was only high speed. That's what the officers were presented with and that's the cards they were dealt. So they played the hand they had in the best manner they knowed how. The simple fact of the matter is that driver was speeding. Like the law or not, it is a law. If we violate laws, we know there can be repurcussions and you do so at your own risk. She was given the opportunity to stop. The trooper didn't iniate the chase, she did. Had she pulled over, a simple traffic citation and a fine would have been the end of it. But instead she chose to act like a moron and run. When the chase reached the level of danger it did, the troopers saw an opening to put an end to it. They did what they did in an effort to save lives, the lives of other motorists. This is a no win situation for the cops. Had they let the chase continued and that SUV struck and killed an innocent motorist, they would have been blamed. Had they simply let her flee without pursuing, they would have knowinly let someone violate the law. They wouldn't have been doing their job and they would have caught flak. And yet by putting an end to the chase, they are blamed again. I'm not saying that what happened was good, but it was not of the cop's making. They are not to blame for this. Responsibility rests solely with the driver who refused to stop. I just get so sick of the endless cop bashing around here. If it's justified then so be it, but some people around here always blame the cops no matter where that blame really lies. Not saying you are one of them, but there are others. -CH |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:40:19 PM EDT
[#46]
a sad case, but if the driver would have stopped and taken her simple speeding ticket (or whatever the original infraction was)...none of the aftermath need have occurred.
sad and regrettable...and 100% preventable. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:44:55 PM EDT
[#47]
This is not TV where no one ever causes a collision which kills entire families minding their own business. Maybe you need to think about this a little more, and while you're doing that, think about what you would say if the driver had done exactly that two miles farther down this extremely busy interstate highway.... |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:45:00 PM EDT
[#48]
I would file a suit for vehicular assault (I'm no lawyer, but that sounds about right) because if the lights come on, I pull over, I don't need a tap to encourage me. Then again, I'm not a 21 year old kid. Don't know how old you are, but if you are older and you look back to your younger days, yeah, you might just take off. Not saying it's right, just being realistic. Shoot, by the way y'all are talking, Junior Johnson shoulda been strung up for running shine... just look at all the people he imperiled. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:54:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Well if you had been driving 60 and the car that hit you were doing 105, there's not much chance you would be here to talk about it. |
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Posted: 8/18/2004 2:55:46 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm sure the officer regrets what happens, there is no 30 MPH on I95, put it in terms of relative speed - a car going 100 on I95 is going 15-25MPH faster than average flow, ask ANYONE who travels on 95 regularly and they will tell you there are ALWAYS a few people flying through traffic at 90+ Should they be ticketed? YES? Do they cause all the carnage projected in this thread had the Pathfinder not been stopped? NO. Dumb kid going too fast and rationalization for a questionable choice (thank goodness we saved the motoring public - oh puhleeeze, let's get a radar gun and sit anywhere along 95 for an 8 hour stretch and count the number of drivers going over 100 - anyone want to bet the farm that there will be NONE? I didn't think so. )
yup, she was dumb. we agree. maybe scared too. odds are we'll never know.
yes. you are right, cops catch it no matter what the outcome. It's not fair. Bad things happen to people who are not cops too. being one or the other does not make one inherently right or wrong.
Agreed, the ultimate responsibility is the driver's. I am greatly disturbed by the use of things like the PIT maneuver as SOP, especially when the consequences can be as serious as they are. Then again, I grew up in the days when there was more respect all the way 'round. |
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