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Posted: 8/18/2004 12:05:27 PM EST
Source

Authorities: Two killed in high-speed chase when Georgia trooper rams fleeing vehicle

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

SAVANNAH, Ga.USA - A high-speed chase that covered 76 miles turned deadly when Georgia state troopers used a ramming technique to spin the fleeing vehicle off the highway, killing the driver and her teenager passenger.

The crash ended the Interstate 95 chase Tuesday that started in South Carolina and crossed into coastal Georgia, with speeds reaching 105 mph.

The driver, identified as 21-year-old Katie Sharp of Holly Hill, Fla., started fleeing when Colleton County sheriff's deputies tried to stop her for speeding at 86 mph in a 70 mph zone, sheriff's Capt. Kent Tisdale said.

The Georgia State Patrol took up the chase when the speeding Nissan Pathfinder crossed the state line near Savannah.

A pursuing trooper tried to stop the vehicle using a tactical ramming maneuver, steering the patrol car's front bumper into the fleeing vehicle behind its rear wheels, said Sgt. Chad Riner of the Georgia State Patrol.

The Pathfinder spun off the interstate and struck a tree. Sharp and her passenger, Garrett Gabe, 17, of Pennsylvania, died instantly, Riner said.

Authorities said they did not immediately know why Sharp refused to pull over. The State Patrol is investigating the crash.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:07:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:12:16 PM EST by AR15fan]
Bummer about the passenger. I also feel bad for everyone who got stuck in the traffic jam while the cops investigated the collision. I dont feel a bit of pity for the driver, she made her choise.

Cops do have a strange way of doing things in the southeast. They still shoot at the tires of fleeing vehicles down there.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:08:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:10:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:11:35 PM EST by cyanide]
The life of an outlaw is a hard one.

Don't play the game unless your prepared to pay up if you lose.


As for the passenger - birds of a feather flock together - one must/ should chose their friends wisely.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:12:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:20:00 PM EST by Merrell]
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")

tell ya what, let me come up and bump draft any trooper at 80+ and see how he likes it (and yes, years ago I got a ticket and the officer came up and was right on my butt even though I was signalling to pull over before he was within 200 yards of my car)

(edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out)


Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:13:14 PM EST
Bummer.

Bet she won't do that again.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:20:07 PM EST
In Oregon, the using the PIT technique at speeds above (I believe) 40mph is considered potentially lethal force.

-Z
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:23:22 PM EST
that would seem to make sense.

Since passenger cars don't have full roll cages & harnesses, to say nothing of fuel cells and Nomex driver's suits & helmets, I'd have to think that deliberately precipitating a wreck at high speed would be homicide (what degree I would leave to the lawyers)
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:24:10 PM EST
Got what she deserved.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:27:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:28:28 PM EST by Sweep]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:28:45 PM EST
Like Chris Rock says,

"if the police have to chase you, they're bringing an ass-kicking with them"

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:28:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:29:48 PM EST by fastang50]
The driver is a moron for all sorts of reasons.

#1: running from the police
#1a: in a pathloser of all things!
#2: operating at high speeds on public roads
#2a: in a pathloser! Those things look unsafe at any speed above 25mph

Stupid girl. Too bad it will cost us all in the end. I don't blame the cop for taking them out. At least the damage (death) is limited to the guilty that way.

edited, I can't spel
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:31:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:35:53 PM EST by HKocher]

Originally Posted By cyanide:
The life of an outlaw is a hard one.

Don't play the game unless your prepared to pay up if you lose.


As for the passenger - birds of a feather flock together - one must/ should chose their friends wisely.



Yup, the driver killed herself if you ask me. The passenger wasn't very bright herself, she could have tried to stop her friend.

*edited to add...

Maybe I watch too much NASCAR, but I always want to spin those little shithead Fast and the Furious wannabes in their ricers. I can't stand people that purposely endanger the lives of others just so they can think they are cool weaving in an out of traffic chasing eachother down like a couple homos.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:34:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:35:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:36:34 PM EST by Nicholastheczar]

Originally Posted By Sweep:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")

tell ya what, let me come up and bump draft any trooper at 80+ and see how he likes it (and yes, years ago I got a ticket and the officer came up and was right on my butt even though I was signalling to pull over before he was within 200 yards of my car)

(edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out)






Better them than the me when she rear ends my ass doing 105!

And I don't think a trooper would endanger innocent peoples lives by running from the police when being pulled over either. Your statement there is ludicrous.

As far as I'm concerned, if you lead the cops in a high speed chase, the cops should have the right to beat the crap out of you when they finally do get you stopped.

Hate to hear about the passenger, but I have no remorse about the driver.



+1
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:35:53 PM EST
Good. Two less warts on the ass of society.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:40:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:44:28 PM EST by Merrell]

Originally Posted By Sweep:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")

tell ya what, let me come up and bump draft any trooper at 80+ and see how he likes it (and yes, years ago I got a ticket and the officer came up and was right on my butt even though I was signalling to pull over before he was within 200 yards of my car)

(edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out)





Better them than the me when she rear ends my ass doing 105!

And I don't think a trooper would endanger innocent peoples lives by running from the police when being pulled over either. Your statement there is ludicrous.

As far as I'm concerned, if you lead the cops in a high speed chase, the cops should have the right to beat the crap out of you when they finally do get you stopped.

Hate to hear about the passenger, but I have no guilt remorse about the driver.



But the same doesn't apply when a drunk trooper goes out on the road at 100 MPH after drinking with his brother officers at a strip joint that evening (yet these officers, who write DUI's all the time couldn't tell he was drunk?) that any citizen should have the right to punt him (and beat the crap out of his buds when they "forget" for over a week that they were drinking with him that night? (noting that these are the guys who accept sex for traffic violations )

Let me tell you about how many times over the years I have been passed by a trooper going over 90 (no lights, no siren) and how many times I watch them get up and ride people's butts. That is every damn bit as hazardous as this person in her Pathfinder, but it doesn't give anyone the right to cause a wreck.

I have no idea why she did not pull over, and she certainly should have lost her license and paid a fine. The death penalty? And for her passenger? Give me a break.

What if the passenger was going into cardiac arrest? How many stories have you heard of guys driving their pregnant wives to the hospital & blowing redlights, then getting pulled over - maybe they should get the hell beat out of them too. The point is that a jury decides what a penalty is, not some hotshot cop playing Dukes of Hazzard or thinking he's Darryl Waltrip.

(edited to add, yes, it is obvious that she should have pulled over, then again, maybe the first contact was a bump from a police car in pursuit, in which case I would be running too (and on the phone)
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:46:22 PM EST

But the same doesn't apply when a drunk trooper goes out on the road at 100 MPH after drinking with his brother officers at a strip joint that evening (yet these officers, who write DUI's all the time couldn't tell he was drunk?) that any citizen should have the right to punt him (and beat the crap out of his buds when they "forget" for over a week that they were drinking with him that night? (noting that these are the guys who accept sex for traffic violations )




What a fuckin moronic statement. Like this happens enough to really count.

If more people were killed in hig-speed chases. Less chases would occur.

But some will always find fault with the officer.

That's why we have problems with drunk drivers and reckless police chases.

Until society allows a strong punishment, they will continue to occur.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:47:01 PM EST

SAVANNAH, Ga.USA - A high-speed chase that covered 76 miles turned deadly when Georgia state troopers used a ramming technique to spin the fleeing vehicle off the highway, killing the driver and her teenager passenger.




The chick chose unwisely...
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:52:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:53:35 PM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:58:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.


Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:00:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
Every GSP Trooper I've ever met was Friendly and Courteous.



+1 for the Trooper.




I have to agree with this one. They have always seemed professional when I have unfortunately run across them.

You play with fire, you will get burned..............

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:01:21 PM EST
Doing the PIT maneuver at high speeds and espcially against a SUV, is almost potentially fatal because the SUVs potential for roll-over. The only thing the driver is guilty of excess speed. How many of you folks drive faster than 75? The LE guy is not the judge and jury. They should've backed off and wait until the vehicle ran out of gas, and then bust'em.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:02:20 PM EST
They should have shot the driver right off. To serve and protect....the public at large.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:04:05 PM EST
I have to side with the troopers in this case. It's a sad incident, but was completely preventable. If only the driver had stopped, none of this would have happened. After she floored it, everything that happened was her own fault.

After a chase that goes 76 miles at dangerously high speeds, the troopers have to factor in danger to the public. So while it's a shame these girls had to die, it would have been more of a shame had these two nitwits lost control and wiped out a family. Again, had they stopped, none of this would have happened.

I guess we have another video now for those John Bunnell "World's Scariest Police Chases" tv shows.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:04:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By migradog:

But the same doesn't apply when a drunk trooper goes out on the road at 100 MPH after drinking with his brother officers at a strip joint that evening (yet these officers, who write DUI's all the time couldn't tell he was drunk?) that any citizen should have the right to punt him (and beat the crap out of his buds when they "forget" for over a week that they were drinking with him that night? (noting that these are the guys who accept sex for traffic violations )




What a fuckin moronic statement. Like this happens enough to really count.




Oh really?


Gov. Ed Rendell hired Kroll Associates to monitor the state police in the wake of the Evans scandal and after the state's inspector general criticized the way the force handled 163 sexual misconduct complaints between 1995 and 2001.




http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04179/338159.stm

http://www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=435739

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/9378556.htm?1c


Apparently, the Pennsylvania State Police doesn't like the publicity it's been getting about its members' alleged sexcapades.

A civil suit against ex-trooper Michael Evans is set to begin in federal court here next month. Attorneys for the embattled agency have asked U.S. District Judge Cynthia Rufe to bring in a jury pool from outside the Philadelphia area.

The motion for the request, called a change of venire, was filed Tuesday and cites "extensive ongoing prejudicial pretrial publicity" as the reason for the change. The defendants requested that a jury either come from outside the eastern district of Pennsylvania or outside the Philadelphia five-county area of Philadelphia, Bucks, Montgomery, Delaware and Chester counties.

"While there has been publicity statewide regarding the issues in plaintiffs' case, that publicity has been loudest and strongest in the Philadelphia area," the motion said.



and so on... there are other cases, which if I have nothiong better to do, I can go dig up. The point is, there have been quite a few accidents involving officers and I don't hear anyone saying "good" yet someone on the road being chased for an unknown reason expires and there's a celebration (to say nothing of the passenger, who is being blamed for not stopping the driver - wow)


If more people were killed in hig-speed chases. Less chases would occur.


The logic of that statement is priceless.


But some will always find fault with the officer.


No, this is not cop bashing, this is reckless cop bashing. You go punt a car going 80 MPH and see what happens. That is lethal force. Are you saying that speeders who do not pull over are free targets for execution? Let's just use a TOW and blast the vehicle.


That's why we have problems with drunk drivers and reckless police chases.

Until society allows a strong punishment, they will continue to occur.



I'm no fan of drunk or reckless drivers, equally I am no fan of hotdogs who play bumper cars with 3500 pound vehicles, and feel their department grants them the right to do so (without thinking about the outcome)

There are cases where I absolutely stand 100% behind the police, I would say most fall under that category. This one, at face value, seems questionable at best.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:05:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 1:06:42 PM EST by mayday]

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.





I think you need to grow up. She didnt die because she was speeding. She died because she was putting the lives of INNOCENT people at risk and she did it for 76 miles!!! Its not like she didnt pull over in 30-seconds. Once again, she had pleanty of time to pull over ; her behaviour is worse then shooting into a crowd!!!

Have you ever seen an innocent bistander killed by a speeder? I have. She died and I'm glad teh police put an end to it. Otherwise she would have probably killed someone. It happens every day!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:07:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.



No, she deserved the consequences for running from the police and endangering innocent lives. If she had been shoplifting instead of speeding, and pulled a gun and waived it at innocent people instead of fleeing, then you probably wouldn't have a problem with the cop shooting her, would you? She posed a threat to every single person on the roads around her.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:10:05 PM EST
DAMN IT! DON'T RUN FROM THE COPS! IT'S THAT BRAIN-DEAD SIMPLE!

If you run from the PD at 80+ MPH in a SUV, you are placing others in danger of death or great bodily harm...

IMHO, the cop did EXACTLY the right thing -> take 'em out before they kill someone...

Don't like it...

Hmm...

DON'T RUN FROM THE COPS, AND THEY WON'T SPIN OUT YOUR CAR!!!

I'd rather see that SUV wrapped around a tree than see the occupants get away because of som BS rule about chases...

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:11:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.





I think you need to grow up. She didnt die because she was speeding. She died because she was putting the lives of INNOCENT people at risk and she did it for 76 miles!!! Its not like she didnt pull over in 30-seconds. Once again, she had pleanty of time to pull over ; her behaviour is worse then shooting into a crowd!!!

Have you ever seen an innocent bistander killed by a speeder? I have. She died and I'm glad teh police put an end to it. Otherwise she would have probably killed someone. It happens every day!



Oh good grief. Have you ever even been on I-95? If you drove 65 MPH you would get mowed down (and probably cause a massive pileup). This isn't blowing through a school zone at Warp factor 9. Should she have pulled over? Yes. Why didn't she? None of us know. Did she or her passenger deserve to die? Not in my world.

Let's shoot all speeders, do it for the children.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:12:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.





The attitudes here are right on, you are just letting emotions cloud your judgement. She didn't die because she was speeding. She didn't even die because she ran. She died because she was driving at idiotic speeds and endangering the lives of innocent people who had no part in her stupid behavior. So after 76 long miles in which she could have stopped, she pressed on, risking the lives of everyone on that highway. She was taken out. It makes no difference that she was endangering the lives of people in an SUV or if she was doing so with a firearm. Both can be deadly weapons. Would you like to be rammed with a 3500 lb vehicle going in excess of 100 mph? Me, my sympathy goes out to those who were placed in that situation outside their wishes by these nitwits. All they had to do was stop and they refused. In doing so they not only risked their lives, but the lives of the cops who had to chase her stupid ass and the general public. She met the end she created. Simple as that.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:18:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:18:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
Doing the PIT maneuver at high speeds and espcially against a SUV, is almost potentially fatal because the SUVs potential for roll-over. The only thing the driver is guilty of excess speed. How many of you folks drive faster than 75? The LE guy is not the judge and jury. They should've backed off and wait until the vehicle ran out of gas, and then bust'em.



Yes, I speed...

But if I get busted, I PULL OVER... I do not take off at top speed (weather it's 86 or 155, matters not) and try to get away...

It's not SPEEDING that got her killed, it's RUNNING FROM THE POLICE!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:19:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By HKocher:


Maybe I watch too much NASCAR, but I always want to spin those little shithead Fast and the Furious wannabes in their ricers. I can't stand people that purposely endanger the lives of others just so they can think they are cool weaving in an out of traffic chasing eachother down like a couple homos.




+1
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:22:36 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:23:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Cops do have a strange way of doing things in the southeast. They still shoot at the tires of fleeing vehicles down there.



Don't mean to flame ya here, pard (well, maybe I do) but you've been watching too many reruns of "The Dukes". Southern law enforcement is pretty advanced. In fact, the GSP doesn't do anything the CHP doesn't do. And, no, I'm not GSP....



Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:23:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.





The attitudes here are right on, you are just letting emotions cloud your judgement. She didn't die because she was speeding. She didn't even die because she ran. She died because she was driving at idiotic speeds and endangering the lives of innocent people who had no part in her stupid behavior. So after 76 long miles in which she could have stopped, she pressed on, risking the lives of everyone on that highway. She was taken out. It makes no difference that she was endangering the lives of people in an SUV or if she was doing so with a firearm. Both can be deadly weapons. Would you like to be rammed with a 3500 lb vehicle going in excess of 100 mph? Me, my sympathy goes out to those who were placed in that situation outside their wishes by these nitwits. All they had to do was stop and they refused. In doing so they not only risked their lives, but the lives of the cops who had to chase her stupid ass and the general public. She met the end she created. Simple as that.



Nobody is arguing that she shouldn't have pulled over. What is being debated is if the officer exercised good judgment by spinning out a vehicle going over 40 MPH on an Interstate.

Note that this is I-95, not Elm Street in Mayberry, and 90 MPH+ is not uncommon. Painting the picture like this was the deathmobile rampaging through kindergarten playgrounds makes for a good tearjerker, but it is not quite accurate (put another way - go out on I95 and go 40 and you WILL get rammed by a vehicle going over 80 MPH, good chance it will be a truck too, which does a hell of a lot more damage than a Pathfinder going 100)

We agree she was stupid. Let's agree to disagree as to whether she deserved to lose her life for speeding on I95.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:31:07 PM EST
In anticipation of the legal wranglings and the press coverage to follow this incident, the real question is:

We're the SUV occupants black or white?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:31:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sweep:

On the phone? The chase went 76 miles. How long would it take to figure out they are real cops with a legitimate reason for pulling you over. And come on, the first contact might have been a bump from a police car? Reaching there aren't you?



Of course, that's what the internet is for!


Probably more like she had a bag of weed on her and din't want to get caught with it...all the more reason to legalize/decriminalize the stuff but that's another thread. ...and yeah, I'm the one reaching there. Let's just wait and see if they find out why she was actually running.


Yup, prolly a scared kid, when you're in your teens & early twenties you do things that (in retrospect) are pretty dumb. I would have had no prob with stop sticks (is that what they're called? the things that flatten tires?) and then had she wrecked, well c'est la vie - but spinning a car out at high speed has NO OTHER OUTCOME than wrecking the car, and for a high C of G vehicle that means rolling it or sending it endo.


I'm sorry. I just don't think the cops should back off when these people try to run from them if they are able to stop them...by any means necessary. Their high speed puts my and my family's life in danger. If they want to put me in danger by not pulling over then they better be willing to pay the consequences of their actions.


Oh I agree (about not backing off) - but the line from pursuit to termination with prejudice may have been crossed here. Unless they had info that the occupants were armed bankrobbers or something, it seems like too much response (someone can chime in with the force continuum explanation here)
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:32:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")

(edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out)





Ever seen a vehicle rear-ended by another that was going 40 MPH faster? It isn't a pretty sight. You would feel differently if you or a family member had been the one she ran over and killed while being stupid enough to endanger the lives of literally hundreds of people during her little drive down the highway. There aren't many ways to stop a car in a high speed pursuit on an interstate highway. And letting someone continue until the decide to stop or run out of gas is not an option on a highway as busy as this one. Before you criticise a LEO for putting their own life in jeopardy (it's not too safe for the chase car to do this either) think about what you would choose if your family had been a couple of miles in front of this driver when they were taken out. She got what she deserved. Sorry for the passenger though.




Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:33:29 PM EST
Speeding wasn't the issue. Speeding would have gotten her a ticket. I speed all the time on the freeways. I don't weave in and out of traffic, I don't tailgate, and I always signal. Speed limits are silly. It's called reasonable and prudent. However, currently the law is the law and if a stater were to get behind me and want me to pull over, I would. I would take my ticket and be on the way. It was her choice to run and endanger innocent citizens that got her killed. I applaud the actions of the state patrolman.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:34:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
... The only thing the driver is guilty of excess speed. ...


Disagree!!

The driver is also guilty eluding, and – far more importantly - of wontedly placing the lives of innocent people in grave danger.

While I’m not happy that she and her passenger died, better them than some innocent family who was just driving down the road.

After 76 miles of this, it was time for it to end!! Deadly force IMHO was justified.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:37:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 1:52:18 PM EST by imcoltsguy]

Originally Posted By Merrell:

But the same doesn't apply when a drunk trooper goes out on the road at 100 MPH after drinking with his brother officers at a strip joint that evening (yet these officers, who write DUI's all the time couldn't tell he was drunk?) that any citizen should have the right to punt him (and beat the crap out of his buds when they "forget" for over a week that they were drinking with him that night? (noting that these are the guys who accept sex for traffic violations )

Let me tell you about how many times over the years I have been passed by a trooper going over 90 (no lights, no siren) and how many times I watch them get up and ride people's butts. That is every damn bit as hazardous as this person in her Pathfinder, but it doesn't give anyone the right to cause a wreck.

What if the passenger was going into cardiac arrest? How many stories have you heard of guys driving their pregnant wives to the hospital & blowing redlights, then getting pulled over - maybe they should get the hell beat out of them too. The point is that a jury decides what a penalty is, not some hotshot cop playing Dukes of Hazzard or thinking he's Darryl Waltrip.

(edited to add, yes, it is obvious that she should have pulled over, then again, maybe the first contact was a bump from a police car in pursuit, in which case I would be running too (and on the phone)



You would run from a police car that bumped you? I guess we just ain't gonna agree on tactics here....

Do you really think the passenger was having a heart attack or having a baby, and that's what caused all this?

How do you think someone is going to catch a speeder if they run with lights all the time?

Some hotshot playing Darrel Waltrip--dude, you're so far off base that you're not even in the park. Any chance you've got a few violations on your record...?

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:39:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By imcoltsguy:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
the ramming deal always struck me as being reckless (being a Nascar fan from the old days, before it went WWF, and seeing what can result from a "tap on the rear quarter")

(edited to add - for low speed pursuits, like the weekly <35 MPH LA deals, I have no problem with spinning a fleeing car out)





Ever seen a vehicle rear-ended by another that was going 40 MPH faster? It isn't a pretty sight. You would feel differently if you or a family member had been the one she ran over and killed while being stupid enough to endanger the lives of literally hundreds of people during her little drive down the highway. There aren't many ways to stop a car in a high speed pursuit on an interstate highway. And letting someone continue until the decide to stop or run out of gas is not an option on a highway as busy as this one. Before you criticise a LEO for putting their own life in jeopardy (it's not too safe for the chase car to do this either) think about what you would choose if your family had been a couple of miles in front of this driver when they were taken out. She got what she deserved. Sorry for the passenger though.



Actually, I've been in a (stopped) vehicle that was rear-ended by a pickup going 60 MPH. Pushed our car over 200 feet, put the rear bumper in the backseat, my leg through the heater core and my girlfriend into the windshield. (wrapped the steering wheel around my arm too, which I had put across her just before impact)

I should also note that was not on a limited access highway and we were stopped (legally) to turn into an establishment on the other side of the road.

Was she a hazard? Absolutely, especially when she did not pull over. But as stated earlier, unless she was a known violent offender, what was the point of putting her car into the weeds (trees) when they could have tailed her till she ran out of gas. 76 miles in a Pathfinder has got to be 1/3 of a tank, maybe more at high speeds - plenty of time for a rolling roadblock ahead (we're talking an hour roughly from start to finish) or stop sticks - punting an SUV leads to certain injury or death (vs. backing off and getting more support - what about a couple of truckers to line up side by side?)

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:40:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.




No, she died because she could have killed me and several others with such an idiotic stunt. And would have, no doubt, had she been allowed to continue.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:40:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:

Originally Posted By Alex_F:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Got what she deserved.

CRC



People deserve to die for speeding? I'm not an LEO, and I'm not going to monday morning quarterback this situation or the police involvement... but the attitudes here suck.

Noone deserves to DIE for speeding or even for leading police on a chase.

Grow up.





The attitudes here are right on, you are just letting emotions cloud your judgement. She didn't die because she was speeding. She didn't even die because she ran. She died because she was driving at idiotic speeds and endangering the lives of innocent people who had no part in her stupid behavior. So after 76 long miles in which she could have stopped, she pressed on, risking the lives of everyone on that highway. She was taken out. It makes no difference that she was endangering the lives of people in an SUV or if she was doing so with a firearm. Both can be deadly weapons. Would you like to be rammed with a 3500 lb vehicle going in excess of 100 mph? Me, my sympathy goes out to those who were placed in that situation outside their wishes by these nitwits. All they had to do was stop and they refused. In doing so they not only risked their lives, but the lives of the cops who had to chase her stupid ass and the general public. She met the end she created. Simple as that.



Nobody is arguing that she shouldn't have pulled over. What is being debated is if the officer exercised good judgment by spinning out a vehicle going over 40 MPH on an Interstate.

Note that this is I-95, not Elm Street in Mayberry, and 90 MPH+ is not uncommon. Painting the picture like this was the deathmobile rampaging through kindergarten playgrounds makes for a good tearjerker, but it is not quite accurate (put another way - go out on I95 and go 40 and you WILL get rammed by a vehicle going over 80 MPH, good chance it will be a truck too, which does a hell of a lot more damage than a Pathfinder going 100)

We agree she was stupid. Let's agree to disagree as to whether she deserved to lose her life for speeding on I95.



You know, I bet this Georgia trooper would have much rather used the PIT manuever while doing 30 mph and I'm also willing to bet he regrets these girls died. But the simple fact is they were on an interstate. They weren't on city streets or a winding country road with hairpin turns. There was no place on the interstate in which they could have found an opening at low speed to pull such a maneuver. There was only high speed. That's what the officers were presented with and that's the cards they were dealt. So they played the hand they had in the best manner they knowed how.

The simple fact of the matter is that driver was speeding. Like the law or not, it is a law. If we violate laws, we know there can be repurcussions and you do so at your own risk. She was given the opportunity to stop. The trooper didn't iniate the chase, she did. Had she pulled over, a simple traffic citation and a fine would have been the end of it. But instead she chose to act like a moron and run. When the chase reached the level of danger it did, the troopers saw an opening to put an end to it. They did what they did in an effort to save lives, the lives of other motorists.

This is a no win situation for the cops. Had they let the chase continued and that SUV struck and killed an innocent motorist, they would have been blamed. Had they simply let her flee without pursuing, they would have knowinly let someone violate the law. They wouldn't have been doing their job and they would have caught flak. And yet by putting an end to the chase, they are blamed again. I'm not saying that what happened was good, but it was not of the cop's making. They are not to blame for this. Responsibility rests solely with the driver who refused to stop. I just get so sick of the endless cop bashing around here. If it's justified then so be it, but some people around here always blame the cops no matter where that blame really lies. Not saying you are one of them, but there are others.

-CH
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:40:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:44:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
Doing the PIT maneuver at high speeds and espcially against a SUV, is almost potentially fatal because the SUVs potential for roll-over. The only thing the driver is guilty of excess speed. How many of you folks drive faster than 75? The LE guy is not the judge and jury. They should've backed off and wait until the vehicle ran out of gas, and then bust'em.




This is not TV where no one ever causes a collision which kills entire families minding their own business. Maybe you need to think about this a little more, and while you're doing that, think about what you would say if the driver had done exactly that two miles farther down this extremely busy interstate highway....


Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:45:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By imcoltsguy:
You would run from a police car that bumped you? I guess we just ain't gonna agree on tactics here....



I would file a suit for vehicular assault (I'm no lawyer, but that sounds about right) because if the lights come on, I pull over, I don't need a tap to encourage me.

Then again, I'm not a 21 year old kid. Don't know how old you are, but if you are older and you look back to your younger days, yeah, you might just take off. Not saying it's right, just being realistic.

Shoot, by the way y'all are talking, Junior Johnson shoulda been strung up for running shine... just look at all the people he imperiled.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:54:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Actually, I've been in a (stopped) vehicle that was rear-ended by a pickup going 60 MPH. Pushed our car over 200 feet, put the rear bumper in the backseat, my leg through the heater core and my girlfriend into the windshield. (wrapped the steering wheel around my arm too, which I had put across her just before impact)
Was she a hazard? Absolutely, especially when she did not pull over. But as stated earlier, unless she was a known violent offender, what was the point of putting her car into the weeds (trees) when they could have tailed her till she ran out of gas. 76 miles in a Pathfinder has got to be 1/3 of a tank, maybe more at high speeds - plenty of time for a rolling roadblock ahead (we're talking an hour roughly from start to finish) or stop sticks - punting an SUV leads to certain injury or death (vs. backing off and getting more support - what about a couple of truckers to line up side by side?)



Well if you had been driving 60 and the car that hit you were doing 105, there's not much chance you would be here to talk about it.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:55:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
You know, I bet this Georgia trooper would have much rather used the PIT manuever while doing 30 mph and I'm also willing to bet he regrets these girls died. But the simple fact is they were on an interstate. They weren't on city streets or a winding country road with hairpin turns. There was no place on the interstate in which they could have found an opening at low speed to pull such a maneuver. There was only high speed. That's what the officers were presented with and that's the cards they were dealt. So they played the hand they had in the best manner they knowed how.



I'm sure the officer regrets what happens, there is no 30 MPH on I95, put it in terms of relative speed - a car going 100 on I95 is going 15-25MPH faster than average flow, ask ANYONE who travels on 95 regularly and they will tell you there are ALWAYS a few people flying through traffic at 90+ Should they be ticketed? YES? Do they cause all the carnage projected in this thread had the Pathfinder not been stopped? NO.

Dumb kid going too fast and rationalization for a questionable choice (thank goodness we saved the motoring public - oh puhleeeze, let's get a radar gun and sit anywhere along 95 for an 8 hour stretch and count the number of drivers going over 100 - anyone want to bet the farm that there will be NONE? I didn't think so. )


The simple fact of the matter is that driver was speeding. Like the law or not, it is a law. If we violate laws, we know there can be repurcussions and you do so at your own risk. She was given the opportunity to stop. The trooper didn't iniate the chase, she did. Had she pulled over, a simple traffic citation and a fine would have been the end of it. But instead she chose to act like a moron and run. When the chase reached the level of danger it did, the troopers saw an opening to put an end to it. They did what they did in an effort to save lives, the lives of other motorists.


yup, she was dumb. we agree. maybe scared too. odds are we'll never know.


This is a no win situation for the cops. Had they let the chase continued and that SUV struck and killed an innocent motorist, they would have been blamed. Had they simply let her flee without pursuing, they would have knowinly let someone violate the law. They wouldn't have been doing their job and they would have caught flak. And yet by putting an end to the chase, they are blamed again.


yes. you are right, cops catch it no matter what the outcome. It's not fair. Bad things happen to people who are not cops too. being one or the other does not make one inherently right or wrong.


I'm not saying that what happened was good, but it was not of the cop's making. They are not to blame for this. Responsibility rests solely with the driver who refused to stop. I just get so sick of the endless cop bashing around here. If it's justified then so be it, but some people around here always blame the cops no matter where that blame really lies. Not saying you are one of them, but there are others.
-CH



Agreed, the ultimate responsibility is the driver's. I am greatly disturbed by the use of things like the PIT maneuver as SOP, especially when the consequences can be as serious as they are. Then again, I grew up in the days when there was more respect all the way 'round.

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