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Posted: 2/23/2007 12:56:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:12:30 PM EST
Persuade?

Hard to know where to start if they have no concept of the 2nd.

I would think they'd be insulted if you mentioned the BOR and said, hey, ever think about the 2nd and what it means?

What's your rec as far as tactics for a situation like this....or do you think they know what the 2nd is but have just chosen to be in denial?

Serious as a heart attack here. Most people have the 1st Amendment wrong, even TV news people, and think it's about free speech on a gun board or the Dixie Chicks "feelings".
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:13:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 1:17:14 PM EST by HBruns]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
....
Try to persuade, not humiliate, and realize that some people will not be swayed so don't waste your time arguing with them.

I have noticed the same thing.

If we can't be polite to those who would be pre-disposed to sympathize with other gun owners, we're in REAL trouble on this issue.

Gun-owners need to stand together, and that won't happen if we keep calling them Fudds.

While Mr. Zumbo epitomized that stereotype, he does show signs that he's willing to learn and possibly even work toward greater understanding between the different gun-owning groups.
Let's foster this behavior rather than create greater divisions in the gun-owning public.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:16:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I have read quite a few comments on other boards that have been left by members of Arfcom, and while I understand the outrage, I also hope that the rhetoric will be dialed back some.

There are always going to be those "hunters" who are what we despise - snobs, who see no use for our type of gun. You'll never be able to convince them that a rifle without a wooden stock and a scope in 30-06 is good for anything and needs to be banned. For everyone of these few true "Fudds", there are a lot of guys (possibly sympathetic) on the sidelines watching what we post and forming opinions about our gun community based on the comments we leave. If we blindly lash out at everyone, we're going to create a bigger schism than we had before the whole Zumbo thing started.

I urge everyone to not call everyone in sight a Fudd. Try to persuade, not humiliate, and realize that some people will not be swayed so don't waste your time arguing with them.


Well put. The difference between fellow sport shooter/hunters who support all aspects of the RKBA and the "Liberals in camo" who would gladly sell us down the river needs to be differentiated, and, in the case of the former, appreciated.

Remember - All FUDDS may be hunters, but NOT ALL HUNTERS ARE FUDDS!!!

If they sneer at you when you take out your AR, and ask you "why you need a bullet hose"... take a minute to ask them (politely) why "they need a rifle that can go through police issue vests?"



When they get all huffy, simply reply "Well, that's the argument the anti's are gonna use... let's stick together on this, shall we? What are you shooting today? Want a cup of coffee?"

Unfortunately, many of the folks who put up things like "F*CK YOU YOU B*STARD IM GONNA SHOOT YOU FOR TRYING TO TAKE AWAY MY GUN - MY GUN IS KEWLER THAN YOUR SISTER" probably won't bother reading it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:18:20 PM EST
Amen
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:22:13 PM EST
What really puzzles me is those hunters who only have a gun for the only purpose of hunting. If you didn't need a gun for any sort of hunting, they simply wouldn't own a gun at all. And they can't see any reason to own any gun that's not suitable for hunting.


Those people are not gun owners in the sense that matters to me.


CJ
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:26:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 1:27:22 PM EST by Tango7]

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What really puzzles me is those hunters who only have a gun for the only purpose of hunting. If you didn't need a gun for any sort of hunting, they simply wouldn't own a gun at all. And they can't see any reason to own any gun that's not suitable for hunting.


It's like they are unaware of the simple joy of shooting on a nice day. Amazing.


Those people are not gun owners in the sense that matters to me.

CJ


Agreed CJ... under ordinary circumstances.

Given the currently public rift, and the benefit it could be to the anti's, I'd stick by the tactics I mentioned - ie make them aware that they are targets too, and try to enlighten them.

It's worth a shot... pun intended.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:35:12 PM EST
I think the term FUDD should be used in a way that rewards the good hunter folks that support the 2nd and to shame those who do not.

"You guys are great - not like some of the Fudds that attack us."

Let hunters know that you support them and suggest they not have any tolerance for Fudds/Sellouts.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:36:30 PM EST
Good post.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:36:32 PM EST
Fudds vs Rambos

The Brady Center had a great week.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:37:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What really puzzles me is those hunters who only have a gun for the only purpose of hunting. If you didn't need a gun for any sort of hunting, they simply wouldn't own a gun at all. And they can't see any reason to own any gun that's not suitable for hunting.


Those people are not gun owners in the sense that matters to me.


CJ


+1000. I've known a few people like that over the years and have met a bunch of them. The bottom line is that they are ignorant fools. As someone else said, "liberals in camo". That being said, I think it's important that we argue with them in every possible forum (internet and otherwise), but it's very true that we need to be very careful exactly HOW we argue with them. We want the fense sitters to see _them_ as the buttholes with no sense... not US. I guess the point is that we need to argue, but try to resist their taunts and stick to pointing out their faults without exibiting our own. Much easier said than done, but it MUST be done, 'cause THEY are not gonna shut up, and like in '94, they will do all they can to screw us, and we HAVE to do something to counter their influence as best we can. Tough situation, but that's life. We have to deal with it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:42:38 PM EST
True, we are always talking about how "Other types of gun owners will be the end of us."

Because they don't tolerate our our choice in firearms.

Although, I can't say we are much better. We come up with names for these guys and bash them daily.

The differences between the two types of gun owners need to be resolved in a civil like fashion. Or else!

I agree whole heartedly.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 1:50:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Q3131A:
Fudds vs Rambos

The Brady Center had a great week.


Yep, and the Rambos have given the Brady Bunch a shitload of ammo. And we keep doing it, with all the fuckin crying, bitching, and begging for apologies from an old man who doesn't understand. The old "Fudd" said some damaging shit only once. All the idiots that continue to spam EVERY friggen gun board out there with death threats, etc have caused us even more trouble.

All the idiot democrats, Bradies, gun grabbers etc, have only to look at Arfcom, and other boards, for many examples of ebr owners acting and talking irresponsible and illegal shit. Plenty of fuel on here for H.R. 1022 fans.





Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:04:22 PM EST
If we dont get out there and slam them everywhere we can we will never be able to show them we are a large percent of the gun industry and not just a group of crazy wackos. Every time someone like Zumbo starts bashing us they need to be exiled from the gun industry, and the only way to do that is to make our voices heard. If they dont support our weapons they are against us, plain and simple, and the only way to convert them is to show them that we are not just a small crowd and that it's very common to own our weapons and have our beliefs in the 2nd Amendment. If we never voice our opinion we will always be considered as a group of small radicals. They need to get it through their heads that the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. And the only way to make that happen is to scream it into their ears every chance we get.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:12:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 2:12:34 PM EST by Hydguy]
Once again, I wish that the SC would uphold the Miller decision as written. Then there would be no 'Fudds' to bitch at, because only rifles that have a actual militia value would be legal, Not stupid $20000 shotguns, not 300 Winchester short mags, or anything non-militia related. M-16 for sale at the local shop for reasonable prices and so on.

Piss on the Fudds.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:13:10 PM EST
Wait, so Fudd is a derogatory term?
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:17:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:19:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:20:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
Good post.


yep glad it was said.

some of the juvenile postings left by arfcom members are an embarassment.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:26:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What really puzzles me is those hunters who only have a gun for the only purpose of hunting. If you didn't need a gun for any sort of hunting, they simply wouldn't own a gun at all. And they can't see any reason to own any gun that's not suitable for hunting.


Those people are not gun owners in the sense that matters to me.


CJ


Those are the sort of people who can only shoot at defenseless animals, you'd never see them pick up a weapon in self-defense; they haven't the balls to do so.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:26:49 PM EST
i've become resigned to the fact in the last week that we EBR owners, are fucked

we are the fringe minority, on the edge of the standard minority

the only gun owners more fucked than we are have .50s and class 3s



kiss em goodbye, guys- the next columbine spells the end of our freedom
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:28:36 PM EST
Between Dumbo, Pretzel etc against us and some of our more emotional folks there is liable to be a Firearms owners "civil war".
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:44:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 2:46:50 PM EST by nightstalker]
I found the quotes by Petzal from before the 94 ban and the split of F&S Magazine from the NRA. Nothing's changed. This a straight on spin contest. It's like telling your kids to be celibate to avoid AIDS and not talking about pregnancy or vice versa depending on your POV. disclaimer...analogies are not perfect.

As George Reiger noted in Field and Stream, worrying just about the Second Amendment means that hunters could soon "end up with a closet full of guns with no place but a shooting range to use them."



David E. Petzal, for one, thinks the present radicalization of the NRA is hurting the interests of gun owners. Petzal, who has given thousands of dollars to the NRA, writes the "Endangered Tradition" column in Field and Stream, another centenarian institution, many of whose 2 million readers are also in the NRA. This June, the magazine made a landmark decision to break with the NRA. "it took tremendous courage," says executive editor Petzal.

"The bugle call known as reveille is a cheerful, energetic tune that, when I was in the Army, few soldiers actually got to hear," he writes in an editorial. "Real-world reveille came for gun owners this February," in the form of the assault weapons ban. Petzall like the NRA, believes that this legislation is too broad. This is partly because it would ban weapons like "the AR-15/M-16, and the MIA in modified [semiautomatic] form, which are highly accurate, and have a legitimate place in organized target competition."

But assault weapons are also implicated in terrible acts of violence, like the Stockton, California, shooting in which a deranged man killed five children and wounded 29 others using a semiautomatic AK-47 clone. "Gun owners -- all gun owners -- pay a heavy price for having to defend the availability of these weapons," writes Petzal. "The American public -- and the gun-owning public; especially the gun-owning public -- would be better off without the hardcore military arms, which puts the average sportsman in a real dilemma" Petzal concludes by advocating compromise, something that Knox and other members of his regime say they will never accept.

To the Knox regime, the hunters' qualms are beside the point. "It's not about Bambi, for God's sake," says Larry Pratt, of Gun Owners of America, who believes the NRA should stop pretending to be an organization of sport shooters and make it clear that its first priority is to defend the Second Amendment.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:24:08 PM EST
I'm sorry. I don't subscribe to this attitude that the "Rambos" have given the anti's lots of ammo to use against us.

To quote Stallone... he drew first blood.

If the EBR community reacting to Zumbo's outrageous, damaging comments gave them ammo, Zumbo's comments themselves were a ground zero thermonuclear detonation.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:44:54 PM EST

Once again, I wish that the SC would uphold the Miller decision as written. Then there would be no 'Fudds' to bitch at, because only rifles that have a actual militia value would be legal, Not stupid $20000 shotguns, not 300 Winchester short mags, or anything non-militia related. M-16 for sale at the local shop for reasonable prices and so on.

Piss on the Fudds.


You can't be serious, are you? If this is how you really feel then you are no different than Zumbo.

I am a hunter that strongly supports the 2nd Amendment and something about being called a Fudd rubs me the wrong way. Must be because of jackasses like Hydguy AND Zumbo.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:50:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
i've become resigned to the fact in the last week that we EBR owners, are fucked

we are the fringe minority, on the edge of the standard minority

the only gun owners more fucked than we are have .50s and class 3s



kiss em goodbye, guys- the next columbine spells the end of our freedom


I disagree.

To defeat the next AWB and to defeat it for good, we need the single minded "hunting purists" on our side. (bless their soon to be informed ignorant hearts)

I see this whole thing as a positive.

Many things have changed since 1994... the sunset and today.

The big box stores like Gander Mountain and Dicks sell ARs (makes me smile)

Many more companies have grown or newly emerged around the AR

Many more people are getting self defence conscious (good for the AR)

Many more states passed CCW since then.

The political fall out from the last time is remembered by many.

Now we saw business respond immediately to this non-sense.

If we can put us, the purist hunters, business, shooters and people that
just want to defend themselves, against any attack on the second in a concerted
and organized effort...

WE WIN

GM
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:52:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I'm sorry. I don't subscribe to this attitude that the "Rambos" have given the anti's lots of ammo to use against us.

To quote Stallone... he drew first blood.

If the EBR community reacting to Zumbo's outrageous, damaging comments gave them ammo, Zumbo's comments themselves were a ground zero thermonuclear detonation.


+1 You win wars by fighting not talking, and this is a war make no mistake about that, take no prisoners.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:54:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 3:55:44 PM EST by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:55:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
What really puzzles me is those hunters who only have a gun for the only purpose of hunting. If you didn't need a gun for any sort of hunting, they simply wouldn't own a gun at all. And they can't see any reason to own any gun that's not suitable for hunting.


Those people are not gun owners in the sense that matters to me.


CJ


They don't puzzle me at all; they truly aren't concerned about RKBA. If the antis banned all semis, they would buy pump shotguns or bolt rifle. Ban anything with a magazine, they will get O/U shotguns and Ruger #1's. Ban anything that uses a metallic cartridge, they will go to blackpowder. Ban anything that goes bang they will learn to shoot bows and figure out a way to kill ducks without a gun at all.

They are concerned about hunting rights; not gun rights, and they will readily sacrifice a certain type of gun to keep shooting helpless animals a few more years.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:55:55 PM EST

The internet has empowered the gun rights movement beyond my wildest dreams.

The only thing that can beat us now is our own doubt and indecision. The future is in our hands now.


AGREED!!!
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:56:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I have read quite a few comments on other boards that have been left by members of Arfcom, and while I understand the outrage, I also hope that the rhetoric will be dialed back some.

There are always going to be those "hunters" who are what we despise - snobs, who see no use for our type of gun. You'll never be able to convince them that a rifle without a wooden stock and a scope in 30-06 is good for anything and needs to be banned. For everyone of these few true "Fudds", there are a lot of guys (possibly sympathetic) on the sidelines watching what we post and forming opinions about our gun community based on the comments we leave. If we blindly lash out at everyone, we're going to create a bigger schism than we had before the whole Zumbo thing started.

I urge everyone to not call everyone in sight a Fudd. Try to persuade, not humiliate, and realize that some people will not be swayed so don't waste your time arguing with them.


I'm in 100% agreement and have been saying the same thing with little effect since last Sunday. The term is juvenile, devisive, and counterproductive. We need all the help we can get in the fight to keep our guns.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:58:42 PM EST

They don't puzzle me at all; they truly aren't concerned about RKBA. If the antis banned all semis, they would buy pump shotguns or bolt rifle. Ban anything with a magazine, they will get O/U shotguns and Ruger #1's. Ban anything that uses a metallic cartridge, they will go to blackpowder. Ban anything that goes bang they will learn to shoot bows and figure out a way to kill ducks without a gun at all.

They are concerned about hunting rights; not gun rights, and they will readily sacrifice a certain type of gun to keep shooting helpless animals a few more years.


DISAGREE!!!

You tell that hunter that he is about to loose his semi-automatic shotgun and he will listen. We love our semi-autos.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:04:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 4:06:26 PM EST by jwr6]

Originally Posted By CBoone:

They don't puzzle me at all; they truly aren't concerned about RKBA. If the antis banned all semis, they would buy pump shotguns or bolt rifle. Ban anything with a magazine, they will get O/U shotguns and Ruger #1's. Ban anything that uses a metallic cartridge, they will go to blackpowder. Ban anything that goes bang they will learn to shoot bows and figure out a way to kill ducks without a gun at all.

They are concerned about hunting rights; not gun rights, and they will readily sacrifice a certain type of gun to keep shooting helpless animals a few more years.


DISAGREE!!!

You tell that hunter that he is about to loose his semi-automatic shotgun and he will listen. We love our semi-autos.


No, I think if most hunters had to choose between loosing his semi auto and keeping hunting but can use a break-action, many of them will cut bait.

Realistically, it would be easier to blanket ban semiautos of ALL types, rather than ban certain features. And I would be willing to bet if a blanket ban on semis had some provision for federal protection of non-magazine fed weapons and hunting rights, the hunting lobby would support it.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:10:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 4:11:59 PM EST by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:11:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I have read quite a few comments on other boards that have been left by members of Arfcom, and while I understand the outrage, I also hope that the rhetoric will be dialed back some.

There are always going to be those "hunters" who are what we despise - snobs, who see no use for our type of gun. You'll never be able to convince them that a rifle without a wooden stock and a scope in 30-06 is good for anything and needs to be banned. For everyone of these few true "Fudds", there are a lot of guys (possibly sympathetic) on the sidelines watching what we post and forming opinions about our gun community based on the comments we leave. If we blindly lash out at everyone, we're going to create a bigger schism than we had before the whole Zumbo thing started.

I urge everyone to not call everyone in sight a Fudd. Try to persuade, not humiliate, and realize that some people will not be swayed so don't waste your time arguing with them.


Absolutely. Use your brain and your heart. We don't need to become or create more of the problem.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:12:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 4:15:09 PM EST by CBoone]

No, I think if most hunters had to choose between loosing his semi auto and loosing hunting but can use a break-action, many of them will cut bait.


NO NO Hunting rights is not the issue here, we're talking about the gun. 90% of the guys I hunt with use a semi-auto shotgun that cost between $700-$1200. We work hard to make the money to buy these guns. Try to take it away from them and they will raise hell.


Realistically, it would be easier to blanket ban semi-autos of ALL types, rather than ban certain features. And I would be willing to bet if a blanket ban on semis had some provision for federal protection of non-magazine fed weapons and hunting rights, the hunting lobby would support it.


Disagree, getting a little to close to the semi-auto shotguns. I know a lot of guys that deer hunt with the BAR. They would be upset also.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:21:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By FlyingAttackPorcupin:
If we dont get out there and slam them everywhere we can we will never be able to show them we are a large percent of the gun industry and not just a group of crazy wackos.


I never said to roll over and play dead. All I was trying to point out that you're not going to make any converts by calling them names. Just keep it civil; every time one of us posts on another board, you establish a reputation for the rest of us too - just keep that in mind.


Zumbo called us terrorists for owning the weapons we do. Now he's fired. We should not respond in a civil manner when someone is talking about taking our freedoms away. We need to make our voice heard loud and clear and get it through their heads what the 2nd Amendment is about. One or two people shouting out about the 2nd Amendment, "shall not be infringed", and argueing to keep black rifles legal will not accomplish much. We need to all band together and make our voice heard so they realize it is not such an uncommon radical thing to own a black rifle. The more they see people supporting black rifles the more they will see it as an accepted thing and possibly join us. Im sure there are hunters that support owning guns as a means of keeping the government in check or protecting against a foreign enemy, but don't express their opinion because their fellow hunting buddies wouldn't agree with them. In short, we aren't going to accomplish anything by being quiet and hiding the fact that we own black rifles.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:24:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By CBoone:

They don't puzzle me at all; they truly aren't concerned about RKBA. If the antis banned all semis, they would buy pump shotguns or bolt rifle. Ban anything with a magazine, they will get O/U shotguns and Ruger #1's. Ban anything that uses a metallic cartridge, they will go to blackpowder. Ban anything that goes bang they will learn to shoot bows and figure out a way to kill ducks without a gun at all.

They are concerned about hunting rights; not gun rights, and they will readily sacrifice a certain type of gun to keep shooting helpless animals a few more years.


DISAGREE!!!

You tell that hunter that he is about to loose his semi-automatic shotgun and he will listen. We love our semi-autos.


Hunters dont use Benelli m1's or m3's, or SPAS-12's, or USAS-12's, Saigas, etc... Banning pistol grips or putting a limit on so-called "evil features" will be perfeclty acceptable to them. After all, their gun doesn't have that stuff, so who cares? The first AW ban is proof of this.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:30:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
i've become resigned to the fact in the last week that we EBR owners, are fucked

we are the fringe minority, on the edge of the standard minority

the only gun owners more fucked than we are have .50s and class 3s

kiss em goodbye, guys- the next columbine spells the end of our freedom


As sad as I am to say it, but after the hatred and stupid name calling BS, you just may be right. I can't really say as I would blame hunters that didn't have an opinion one way or another about UBRs before, to have a true and justified disgust for UBR owners now.

I have posted no fewer than 1/2 dozen times in separate threads with common sense, level-headed posts as to why the name calling and insults shouldn't have a place on any gun board. Posts like mine and a few others BEGGING for UBR owners to STFU about hunters just get brushed off and the "Fudd" insults continue to occur. The saddest part is the Dems. really didn't have to do anything but sit back watch the cannon fodder roll in.

At the beginning of the whole Zumbo catastrophe, I was really encouraged to see pure hunters and pure UBR freaks come together on the blog and stomp his ass collectively. But then the insults against hunters just kept coming, even after they were kicking Zumbo too. I really started to get ashamed of the way other people saw how many black rifle enthusiasts just wouldn't stop bashing all hunters. It really made me sick.

For all the people who try to justify the insults by defining "Fudds", you are as big of a problem as Zumbo was. People that hunt don't give a shit about 4 paragraph explainations as to who "is", and "who is not" a "Fudd". They see it as you insulting them as stupid, ignorant, and bumbling gun owners just like "Elmer Fudd" in the cartoon. It pisses them off, and turns them against our cause. You better know this: The pump-shotgun and bolt action rifle are not nearly as high on the hit list as the UBR. When you drive the hunters away, we have NO allies at all. And we as UBR owners don't have anywhere close to the numbers needed to fight the gun grabbers alone. That's a fact.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 5:22:42 PM EST
Instead of letting us try to correct and consolidate power within ARFCOM and the whole gun community we have everybody yelling Fire Mission and Fudd and we may begin to lose ground on some of our new power of consolidation.


Everybody wants to be the one to ring the fire bell and be the first with the fire truck to the newly created (discovered) fire. Save it for the legislative and let see what gets printed in the gun industry trade magazines over the next month. Then we may respond.

If you go around now I think we are wasting much of our resources that could be put to better use later.

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