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Posted: 9/30/2005 2:27:24 AM EDT
I've noticed a few references to Atlas Shrugged the last few days.

So I'm curious to know how many of us are on the board.

Are you a fan of Atlas, or Ayn Rand in general?

How did you get turned on to Atlas, and did it change how you view life and the world?

Were you religious before reading Atlas? How about after?

Have you read any other works by Rand? Favroites?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:59:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 3:00:35 AM EDT by desertmoon]

Originally Posted By RyanAR15:
I've noticed a few references to Atlas Shrugged the last few days.

So I'm curious to know how many of us are on the board.

Are you a fan of Atlas, or Ayn Rand in general?

How did you get turned on to Atlas, and did it change how you view life and the world?

Were you religious before reading Atlas? How about after?

Have you read any other works by Rand? Favorites?



1. Big Ayn Rand fan here. I have everything by Rand that I can think of including the Objectivist Epsitemology.

2 & 3. It was an odd coincidence that a very good friend of mine had purchased a new printing hardcover of Fountainhead and twenty pages into it she came over to me at work, handed me the book and said, "I have read this before but I think YOU will REALLY enjoy this! It's right up your alley." So I read it. The next thing I know, I have fought my way through A.S. and now I work seven days a week and I go to college studying Manufacturing and Engineering in my spare time.

4 & 5. Yes. I was religious before hand. Yes, I still am. I have found that Objectivist Ethics are hardly in contradiction to the true ethics Christianity except in cetain cases of intimate relationships. I believe that certain aspects of Objectivism are incorrect in SOME cases....I believe, also, that many people look too hard at certain ethics in Christianity and not enough at others. The the reverse is true with Objectivism.

6. I have most of the Ayn Rand catalog. My favorite is her essay work with Nathaniel Brandon, "the Virtue of Selfishness"
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:59:31 AM EDT
I preferred "Telemachus sneezed".
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 3:02:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By edb66:
I preferred "Telemachus sneezed".



as compared to "Autolucyus Blinked" ?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 3:46:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:05:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
I'm not real sure if you could call me a real fan. I've read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and then stopped there. I bought other books then didn't read them. I was basically satisfied that the philosophical foundation - using reason and being productive - was a mighty fine goal to shoot for, as well as avoiding doing the evil that was profiled. It probably wouldn't hurt to read more, but I want to study engineering and other practical fields.



You know...you'll probably end up running a hamburger stand in Colorado don't you???

That's okay...I'm gonna buy the car wash down the street!!!!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:06:31 AM EDT
Read We The Living. It is as close to an autobiography of Rand that you will ever find.

I've read most of her stuff when I was in high school. She was very influential on me, and my philosophy of life and things.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:10:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:15:11 AM EDT
i oughta try rereading it. reading "atlas shrugged" years and years ago was like having my teeth pulled and i thought it was pretentious shit from some elitist beeyotch...but so many people are such huge devotees i musta missed something the first time around!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:16:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 4:18:43 AM EDT by KlubMarcus]
I have never read any of Ayn Rand's books and I'm still not sure if (s)he is a (wo)man. But a few people have told me that some of Rand's opinions/ideas match mine. So Rand must be one of them smarties. Why haven't I read any? They're too long, so that means Rand isn't as smart as that guy Cliff and his Notes.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:24:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 4:26:58 AM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]
Hello.

I was first introduced to Rand over 20 years ago, at which time I is was in a state of spirtual and philosphical inquiry. Over the years I have woven Objectivism to various degrees within my moral and philosophical fabric. In recent years I have come to reject Rand's notions of a divine spirit...i.e. I have come full circle, re-establashing my faith in God. I also have come to reject her notions regarding the human inter-relationships (i.e. love, sex) between men and women and especially marriage. On the other hand, I continue to admire Rand's ability to lucidly and vividly express and join the ideas of Hayek, Van Mises, the Founding Fathers, and Classical logic in a model (i.e. objectivism) that can be applied to day-to-day life. Obvisouly, I reject her "take it all or none" premise with respect to her philosphy. She was talented-gifted writer and maybe even a good hack of a philospher and scholar... but I think not much more. I think "Letters of Ayn Rand" does a great job of understanding her and what she was trying to do.

My favorite fiction work of her's is "We the Living"-- One of the first, perhaps most vivid accounts of life under communism, written at a time when the Western world really didn't have a clue what communism was all about. This should be required reading, I consider it timeless. And, perhaps her most valuable work, if only because it is the most "portable" and practical of her fiction works.

I love the characters and the many literary demonsions in Atlas Shurrged and Fountain Head. I regard them both as masterpieces. I have read them both probably several times over the years. Each time I discover new elements to follow within the themes.

My favorite non-fiction work is Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. I think her point that throughout history, market and free economies have not really existed to any major extent is clever and provides a very strong basis for developing potent arguements against liberals.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:28:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:39:27 AM EDT
Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal is an excellent work...I find it odd that Greenspan has gone on to run the Federal Reserve after having been such an early advocate of real Capitalism.....I wonder what he is up to???

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:42:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -brass-:
The John Galt speech alone went for forty pages or so...



who is John Galt?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:43:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By -brass-:
The John Galt speech alone went for forty pages or so...



who is John Galt?

I dunno...but he is very verbose.....or so I'm told.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:44:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 4:44:36 AM EDT by Jack19]
I've got a first edition of AS, but I've never been a fan. Rand philosophy was a little to self-centered for me.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:51:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal is an excellent work...I find it odd that Greenspan has gone on to run the Federal Reserve after having been such an early advocate of real Capitalism.....I wonder what he is up to???




My opinion is that Greenspan's actions over the years are consistent with economic premises found in Rand's works. Here is a quick example from www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170579,00.html


WASHINGTON — Asset bubbles fueled by "market exuberance" invariably burst and policy-makers cannot safely pierce them, Federal Reserve (search) Chairman Alan Greenspan (search) said Tuesday in what some economists took as a warning to bond market and housing speculators.

In a speech in which he once again defended the Fed's decision not to deflate the late-1990s stock market bubble (search), Greenspan said a successful monetary policy can be a victim of its own success — by reducing economic volatility that in turn fosters greater risk-taking.

He warned that protracted bouts of big risk-taking by investors are always followed by asset-price declines, and he said maintaining the U.S. economy's flexibility was essential to helping it weather the inevitable blows.

"History cautions that extended periods of low concern about credit risk have invariably been followed by reversal, with an attendant fall in the prices of risky assets," he told an economics conference in Chicago via satellite.

"Because it is difficult to suppress growing market exuberance when the economic environment is perceived as more stable, a highly flexible system needs to be in place to rebalance an economy in which psychology and asset prices could change rapidly," he said.

Prices for both U.S. stocks and government bonds rose a bit after his remarks as traders showed relief he had not signaled higher-than-expected interest rates ahead.

The Fed chief, who steps down at the end of January after more than 18 years, said the U.S. economy's ability in recent decades to weather a series of shocks — including the latest run-up in energy prices — offered evidence of its increased flexibility.

"That greater tendency toward self-correction has made the cyclical stability of the economy less dependent on the actions of macroeconomic policymakers, whose responses often have come too late or have been misguided," he said."

"It is important to remember that most adjustment of a market imbalance is well under way before the imbalance becomes widely identified as a problem," Greenspan added.

The comments reminded observers of Greenspan's now famous warning to stock market investors in a 1996 speech not to get caught up in "irrational exuberance (search)."

Some economists have criticized Greenspan for failing to stem the stocks bubble in the 1990s. He also faces criticism for an ultra-low interest rate policy in recent years that some argue has fueled speculation in housing.

As he has in the past, Greenspan defended the Fed's decision to wait for the "eventual exhaustion of the forces of boom" in the 1990s, saying acting aggressively to deflate the stock market could have led to a "significant recession."

"Whether that judgment continues to hold up through time has yet to be determined," he said.

He raised the prospect the economy's greater flexibility in recent years could mean a better economic performance.

"If we have attained a degree of flexibility that can mitigate most significant shocks — a proposition as yet not fully tested — the performance of the economy will be improved and the job of macroeconomic policy-makers will be made much simpler," he said.

Some analysts said the speech appeared in part a "victory lap," but one in which Greenspan seemed concerned about the potential for market stress once he leaves office.

"As outgoing Fed chairman, he's clearly concerned about the asset cycle and the prospect the low concern on credit risk is going to be associated with a decline in asset prices down the track," said Alan Ruskin, research director at 4Cast Inc.

Greenspan did not refer specifically to the low risk premiums evident in the U.S. bond market — a topic he and other Fed officials have addressed in recent speeches.

Those low risk premiums have kept long-term interest rates down, helping underpin swift housing price (search) gains.

In a speech Monday, Greenspan restated his view that "froth" was evident in some local housing markets, but said it was not yet clear if those speculative conditions would reach across the nation as a whole.

On Tuesday, he said "fostering an environment of maximum competition" was the best way to ensure economic flexibility.

In that regard, he said it was important to ward off misguided efforts to try to protect jobs through trade protectionism and other competition-inhibiting policies.

"Protectionism in all its guises, both domestic and international, does not contribute to the welfare of American workers," Greenspan said. "At best, it is a short-term fix at a cost of lower standards of living for the nation as a whole."

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 4:53:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal is an excellent work...I find it odd that Greenspan has gone on to run the Federal Reserve after having been such an early advocate of real Capitalism.....I wonder what he is up to???




My opinion is that Greenspan's actions over the years are consistent with economic premises found in Rand's works. Here is a quick example from www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170579,00.html


The Fed chief, who steps down at the end of January after more than 18 years, said the U.S. economy's ability in recent decades to weather a series of shocks — including the latest run-up in energy prices — offered evidence of its increased flexibility.




buy MORE guns, ammo, mags and food.........NOW.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:01:02 AM EDT
Atlas Shrugged is a fascinating book, but I must confess I skip thru John Galt's 60-page speech.

We The Living is probably the most powerful book I've ever read, because it is history illuminated in the form of historical fiction. The crazy stuff the Communists did in the book is true and really happened, which is terrifying.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:03:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By edb66:
I preferred "Telemachus sneezed".



Wasn't that a book referenced in the Illuminati Trilogy?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:18:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Older_Crow:



+1 She was very much against gun control after seeing it first hand as a very young girl when her father had to flee the Bloshevich Revolution during the winter of 1918 in a horse drawn sled. Her father having to shoot wolves off the back of back of the sled with his revolver made quite the impression on the young lass.

Read 'Atlas Shrugged' as a very impressionable 18 year old and made me an avowed capitalist until this day.

wganz
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:38:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By Older_Crow:



+1 She was very much against gun control after seeing it first hand as a very young girl when her father had to flee the Bloshevich Revolution during the winter of 1918 in a horse drawn sled. Her father having to shoot wolves off the back of back of the sled with his revolver made quite the impression on the young lass.

Read 'Atlas Shrugged' as a very impressionable 18 year old and made me an avowed capitalist until this day.

wganz




So, in a nutshell/cliff's notes version, what is it about?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:41:30 AM EDT
My first ecperience with Rand was a book on tape of Atlas Shrugged. It was very slow in the beginning but it had a purpose to build up to a fantastic ending. I think this book was one of the main factors that got me into preparedness. I see many of the bad things happening now that were described in the book. I have stuffed a copy of the book into my truck BOB in case I ever get stranded and need to kill off many hours.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:42:25 AM EDT
Got the book back in May and have been reading it off and on. I am currently wading through John Galt's speech.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:46:06 AM EDT


So, in a nutshell/cliff's notes version, what is it about?



IM sent; don't want to spoil it for others.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:51:31 AM EDT
I had a very good teacher in high school who demanded one final assignment from me: read Atlas Shrugged before graduation. This was slightly amusing since he was my band director.

I have probably read it 6-7 times and I have a hard time reading it now because so much of the book has been memorized. I usually end up giving a copy to my serious girlfriends at some point. They don't have to love it, but if they hate it for whatever reason they are going to end up hating me eventually.

I'd say Rand has a pretty wonderful philosophy that works about 90% of the time. The one place where I think it really falls short is in romantic relationships. Rand's own life was fairly messy in that respect. Mine was too when I was held deeply in her sway. Then again, now that I am not, it is still really messy. Oh well, perhaps 100% is apt.

I have not made it through OE but I have read everything else.

I think the primary strength of Rand is her medium and style - it allows her to transmit deep and crucial philosophical and moral lessons even to young minds. I definitely think that reading Rand prepared me for surviving all of the anti-intellectual liberal nonsense at even a conservative univeristy (UGA). Without Rand's books I would have probably slipped into some sort of unthinking socialism sheerly by immersion in my dormitory.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:53:20 AM EDT
I was turned onto the Fountainhead and A.S. in highschool.

I was a loser, partied too much, and had a lot of contact with the PO PO.

Socieity had indeed brainwashed me to a certain extent about entitlement.

But I was also from a rugged rural area.

I don't even remember how I got into the books, but the Objectivist ethic is responsible for my success in life, no doubt.

Indeed, when I start second handing and failing to live by my own ideals, that's when I get myself in trouble. When I allow my self to move to my own goals my own ends, success abounds.

I reread her works about every couple of years. I keep a copy of portions of Howard Roark's speech handy.

Many Objectivist converts owe their enlightenment to my efforts to get them to read her stuff.

Objectivism is not the "whole" answer. Rand had fucked up conceptions of romance and the role religion and religious dedication can have when religion itself is not used as tool of the second handers. But she got a LOT of stuff right, and as our country veers further and further toward socialism, we see her writings as the prophetic words they were, sometimes shockingly, frighteningly.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 5:58:57 AM EDT
Rand and Heinlein shaped my young impressionable mind.

A big fan of both.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:04:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 6:09:04 AM EDT by uscmba02]

Originally Posted By xxTAPxx:

Originally Posted By wganz:

Originally Posted By Older_Crow:



+1 She was very much against gun control after seeing it first hand as a very young girl when her father had to flee the Bloshevich Revolution during the winter of 1918 in a horse drawn sled. Her father having to shoot wolves off the back of back of the sled with his revolver made quite the impression on the young lass.

Read 'Atlas Shrugged' as a very impressionable 18 year old and made me an avowed capitalist until this day.

wganz




So, in a nutshell/cliff's notes version, what is it about?



Its about being your own person. Just not at the expense of anyone else. Its about what happens what will happen when some people's desire to live on anothers dime gets out of control. (At least that is what it was about for me.)

I'd start with The Fountainhead before Atlas Shrugged. Better story in my opinion (just mine).
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:10:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:

Objectivism is not the "whole" answer. Rand had fucked up conceptions of romance and the role religion and religious dedication can have when religion itself is not used as tool of the second handers.




Examples?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:43:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 6:44:27 AM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]

Originally Posted By Austrian:

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:

Objectivism is not the "whole" answer. Rand had fucked up conceptions of romance and the role religion and religious dedication can have when religion itself is not used as tool of the second handers.




Examples?



Examples, where? In the writings or in real life? Well, in my opinion, Dagney's relationships, for example, are empty and unfulfulling to the soul. Rand's equivocence of pysical pleasure/desire and emotional enrichment, specially from a woman's perspective (according to my wife) is not reasonable for a strongly founded person to maintain over a long period of time... humans just aren't programed that way. Rand propones a similar relationship between Man and God (or rather Man and the Perfection of Man). She misses (or refused to acknowlege) a very critical spirital aspect that faith provides. She fails to differentiate the instution of religion from adherence and acceptance of divinity and Grace. Again, this is my opinion based on what I have gleaned from reading her work for over 20 years. I not meaning nor interested to start a debate on this matter...I am just sharing my views.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:49:00 AM EDT
i read Atlas shrugged.
I bought The Fountainhead about a year ago but still have yet to open it. After reading Atlas Shrugged, I know i'm gonna need a couple weeks with nothing else going on.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 6:59:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:17:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Ayn believed that Objectivism was atheistic by necessity. But why?
Reason takes you as far as your knowledge allows. I share her frustration with the idea that God's only definition is that he is uncomprehendable, but I also cannot in good conscience make a conclusion of something where I have no access to the required knowledge.
God may very well exist. Reason shows me that I cannot say he doesn't and still be secure in the knowledge that I'm factually accurate.



Excellently stated, DF.

What you describe is the same realization that I reached.

What is ironic about it, is that had I not reached that realization, the "required knowledge" would not have revealed itself to me.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:05:12 AM EDT
I'm reading it again for the 4th time.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:22:35 AM EDT
So should I read fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged first?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:25:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
So should I read fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged first?



I'd say Fountainhead. Atlas Shrugged is a fairly large tome on the scale of LOTR.

wganz

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:32:32 AM EDT
Which book is more philosophically oriented? I am more interested in the philosophical meat and structure of her arguments then in the fictional medium.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:48:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
Which book is more philosophically oriented? I am more interested in the philosophical meat and structure of her arguments then in the fictional medium.



Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
Virtue of Selfshness

probably represent the core of Objectivism in the non-fiction medium.

But... I would also suggest the speeches--- Roark's courtroom speech in FH; D'Anconia's and Galt's in AS.

My favorite of the three speeches is D'Anconia's "Root of all Evil Speech" at the Taggert wedding party.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:56:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:58:58 AM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:10:19 AM EDT
Dagny Taggart is HOT!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:56:50 AM EDT
I liked Atlas Shrugged. Ayn Rand opened my eyes to how we have been conditioned to see the world. I learned Seeking to profit by being intelligent, resourceful, hard-working and willing to take a risk is a noble cause. It seems like the lib-left's retort to any individual success is to point out "he was only in it for the profit" or "their actions were only motivated by profits" like that was a bad thing.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 12:15:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 12:31:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 12:32:48 PM EDT by CKMorley]
Very big fan. I've read AS and FH a few times, as well as Anthem and some of her essays.

I have AS and FH in pdf format on my computer, and I often turn to a random page and start reading. Her writing style is very heavy, but so are the concepts she's dealing with.

Read "Anthem" first. It's only 100 pages and an easy read. It's a negative utopia novel, wherein a man living in a totalitarian state rediscovers a lost word; "I".

From the Foward:

The greatest guilt today is that of people who accept collectivism by moral
default; the people who seek protection from the necessity of taking a stand,
by refusing to admit to themselves the nature of that which they are accepting;
the people who support plans specifically designed to achieve serfdom,
but hide behind the empty assertion that they are lovers of freedom, with no
concrete meaning attached to the word; the people who believe that the content
of ideas need not be examined, that principles need not be defined, and
that facts can be eliminated by keeping one’s eyes shut. They expect, when
they find themselves in a world of bloody ruins and concentration camps, to
escape moral responsibility by wailing: “But I didn’t mean this!”
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:00:00 PM EDT

I agree, Anthem first. A child could read this book.

From there? Well, are you an artist or an engineer? Artist = Fountainhead. Engineer = Atlas.
May as well dance with the one that brung ya!

I am wearing my "Who is John Galt?" shirt RIGHT NOW...how ironical?

I couldn't put any of her books down.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:53:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
Which book is more philosophically oriented? I am more interested in the philosophical meat and structure of her arguments then in the fictional medium.



Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
Virtue of Selfshness

probably represent the core of Objectivism in the non-fiction medium.

But... I would also suggest the speeches--- Roark's courtroom speech in FH; D'Anconia's and Galt's in AS.

My favorite of the three speeches is D'Anconia's "Root of all Evil Speech" at the Taggert wedding party.



The Money Speech is phenomenal

as is the Sex Speech when he shows up at Hank Rearden's office some time later.

absolutely ESSENTIAL reading
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 1:54:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
Which book is more philosophically oriented? I am more interested in the philosophical meat and structure of her arguments then in the fictional medium.



Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
Virtue of Selfshness

probably represent the core of Objectivism in the non-fiction medium.

But... I would also suggest the speeches--- Roark's courtroom speech in FH; D'Anconia's and Galt's in AS.

My favorite of the three speeches is D'Anconia's "Root of all Evil Speech" at the Taggert wedding party.



The Money Speech is phenomenal

as is the Sex Speech when he shows up at Hank Rearden's office some time later.

absolutely ESSENTIAL reading



Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:02:58 PM EDT
I read about 1/3 of Atlas Shrugged and got way too bored. As a conservative economist, I already knew and understood everything the book was trying to teach.

Still, I'm a fan and approve.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:14:44 PM EDT
Anyone see the movie 'The passion of Ayn Rand' or the documentary 'Ayn Rand: A passion for life'

I got these from netflix after I finished Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't change the message, but man she was a bit stranger then I would have thought. I was hoping to hear a review of these films from someone who knew more about her life.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:16:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 2:17:05 PM EDT by desertmoon]

Originally Posted By CounterStrike:
Anyone see the movie 'The passion of Ayn Rand' or the documentary 'Ayn Rand: A passion for life'

I got these from netflix after I finished Atlas Shrugged. It doesn't change the message, but man she was a bit stranger then I would have thought. I was hoping to hear a review of these films from someone who knew more about her life.



I believe it was called "Sense of Beauty" "Sense of BEING" that's it!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 2:16:15 PM EDT
I think we can all agree Dagny was a bit of a tramp...
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