MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (3/20/2006) -- American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism.

Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.”

The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts.

The study is co-authored by assistant professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Doug Hartmann. It’s the first in a series of national studies conducted the American Mosaic Project, a three-year project funded by the Minneapolis-based David Edelstein Family Foundation that looks at race, religion and cultural diversity in the contemporary United States.

Wow, Dino, I'm surprised so many people know you!

Unitarian Jihad declares a fatwah against Wdsman!

- Brother Shotgun of Compassion

Muslims over atheists concerning trust and marriage of children? These 2,000 households didn't happen to belong to the same mosque, did they?

Quoted: Muslims over atheists concerning trust and marriage of children? These 2,000 households didn't happen to belong to the same mosque, did they?

I was a bit shocked myself hehe

Ah Ha!  What they are playing upon is the common STEREOTYPE of an atheist, not the mind-their-own business, ordinary looking privately-held-convictions REAL atheists who blend right in.  

I suspect that the higher the level of education (of all ages, not just the new liberal brainwashing of the last three decades) the higher the percentages of atheism and agnosticism.  The questionaire caused persons of faith to conjure up a mental image of some ACLU shaggy radical screaming nutcase rather than a quietly atheistic CPA, farmer or Walmart cashier.

Quoted: Muslims over atheists concerning trust and marriage of children? These 2,000 households didn't happen to belong to the same mosque, did they?

I am pretty sure people trust people that believe in God period more than they trust people who have no faith in a higher power... especially in marrying their children.

Quoted: Quoted: Muslims over atheists concerning trust and marriage of children? These 2,000 households didn't happen to belong to the same mosque, did they? I am pretty sure people trust people that believe in God period more than they trust people who have no faith in a higher power... especially in marrying their children.

you forget that many don't think Muslims believe in the real God...

My experience disagrees with their study.   Parents love me

Atheists, like Muslims, are often defined in this country by the loudest and most obnoxious of the bunch that get all of the publicity.  That is the image that forms in people's minds.

The media has gone out of its way to soften the nagtive image of Muslims, but not of atheists.  Instead, we always here of the stridently anti-religious individuals pursuing lawsuits against mainstream ideas.

I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself.

Quoted: I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself.

I've always found those who claim to be only agnostic to be copping out myself.  Lots of people are agnostic in that they believe God can't be proven or disproven.   Most people still either believe or disbelieve and thus are either theists or atheists.  I have never met an "on the fence" agnostic, myself.

Bummer.

Eric The(Lamentable)Hun

Quoted: Bummer. Eric The(Lamentable)Hun

out of curiosity ETH, would you rather have your daughter marry an atheist or a Muslim?

i woudl be willing to bet there are a lot more athiests around than people think. Notice I did not say a lot of athiests, just more than people think. If I did not believe in religion, faith, supernatural, whatever, I would describe myself as the majority faith. Think about it, in this country many people claim to be Christians and that is as far as they take it.  For the most part just the claim is enough to satisfy the majority.

For those of you who have never been a faith other than Christian you (It doesnt count if you grew up in a christian style family but you were not saves until some later date) You really dont understand how obnoxious many of you are when someone is of a different faith than you. If I did not have a faith I would just say I was Christian.  If I lived in a Muslim country I would say I was a Muslim

So, the point of the story is that sociatal pressures probably make actually identifying who an athiest is rather hard and any statistics would be pretty crummy.

Quoted: Quoted: Bummer. Eric The(Lamentable)Hun out of curiosity ETH, would you rather have your daughter marry an atheist or a Muslim?

Get thee to a nunnery! ~ Hamlet, Act 3, scene i, by Wm. Shakespeare



Eric The(So,TheAnswerIs...Nun)Hun

Quoted: Ah Ha!  What they are playing upon is the common STEREOTYPE of an atheist, not the mind-their-own business, ordinary looking privately-held-convictions REAL atheists who blend right in.   I suspect that the higher the level of education (of all ages, not just the new liberal brainwashing of the last three decades) the higher the percentages of atheism and agnosticism.  The questionaire caused persons of faith to conjure up a mental image of some ACLU shaggy radical screaming nutcase rather than a quietly atheistic CPA, farmer or Walmart cashier.

+1

Quoted: Atheists, like Muslims, are often defined in this country by the loudest and most obnoxious of the bunch that get all of the publicity.  That is the image that forms in people's minds. The media has gone out of its way to soften the nagtive image of Muslims, but not of atheists.  Instead, we always here of the stridently anti-religious individuals pursuing lawsuits against mainstream ideas. I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself.

Do you really believe that Atheists voices and interest occupy a larger amout of time and space here in the U.S. than Christians do?

They don't even come close. It's not even debatable.

Christianity is in the Pledge, the currency, sporting events, defines when some can even buy alcohol REGARDLESS of what faith they are. It permiates ALL aspects of life....whether one is inclined towards that belief system or not.

If you really think Atheists get more floor time for themselves than Christians or even Muslims, you really have no clue what the fuck is going on.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bummer. Eric The(Lamentable)Hun out of curiosity ETH, would you rather have your daughter marry an atheist or a Muslim? Get thee to a nunnery! ~ Hamlet, Act 3, scene i, by Wm. Shakespeare Eric The(So,TheAnswerIs...Nun)Hun

I only know a few Atheists, they are intelligent, kind and thoughtful people who do not try to convert you or invite you to their church.

Quoted: Quoted: Atheists, like Muslims, are often defined in this country by the loudest and most obnoxious of the bunch that get all of the publicity.  That is the image that forms in people's minds. The media has gone out of its way to soften the nagtive image of Muslims, but not of atheists.  Instead, we always here of the stridently anti-religious individuals pursuing lawsuits against mainstream ideas. I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself. Do you really believe that Atheists voices and interest occupy a larger amout of time and space here in the U.S. than Christians do? They don't even come close. It's not even debatable. Christianity is in the Pledge, the currency, sporting events, defines when some can even buy alcohol REGARDLESS of what faith they are. It permiates ALL aspects of life....whether one is inclined towards that belief system or not. If you really think Atheists get more floor time for themselves than Christians or even Muslims, you really have no clue what the fuck is going on.

Reading comprehension is a lost art.  I swear, some people just look for shit to argue about.

Where did I type anything to even imply that "Atheists voices and interest occupy a larger amout of time and space here in the U.S. than Christians do."

To paraphrase you: If you really think I think Atheists have more voice in this society than Christians, you have no clue what the fuck I think.

Quoted: Quoted: I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself. I've always found those who claim to be only agnostic to be copping out myself.  Lots of people are agnostic in that they believe God can't be proven or disproven.   Most people still either believe or disbelieve and thus are either theists or atheists.  I have never met an "on the fence" agnostic, myself.

I have met and worked with quite a few.  A lot of folks just don't care.  The demonizing of Atheists by Theists and of Theists by Atheists is enough to make most people just avoid the topic.   I agree, though, that privately I guess you would have to believe one way or another.

I most certainly am a untrustworthy liar.  For example, when I'm at a function hosted by the big cheese of my company, out of  respect I bow my head when he says grace before the meal.  There's no reason to cause a scene unnecessarily.  What a bad bad guy I am...

Quoted: I most certainly am a untrustworthy liar.  For example, when I'm at a function hosted by the big cheese of my company, out of  respect I bow my head when he says grace before the meal.  There's no reason to cause a scene unnecessarily.  What a bad bad guy I am...

careful, you'll give people the idea we aren't that bad after all

I do the same thing, its just polite not to interrupt someone's prayer

Quoted: I most certainly am a untrustworthy liar.  For example, when I'm at a function hosted by the big cheese of my company, out of  respect I bow my head when he says grace before the meal.  There's no reason to cause a scene unnecessarily.  What a bad bad guy I am...

SSSSSsssshhhhh.  Do not disclose our secret infidel's handshake.  Let them only see us in our tie dyed ACLU tee shirts and rastafarian dreadlock wigs.

Quoted: Quoted: I most certainly am a untrustworthy liar.  For example, when I'm at a function hosted by the big cheese of my company, out of  respect I bow my head when he says grace before the meal.  There's no reason to cause a scene unnecessarily.  What a bad bad guy I am... SSSSSsssshhhhh.  Do not disclose our secret infidel's handshake.  Let them only see us in our tie dyed ACLU tee shirts and pastafarian dreadlock wigs.

fixed it for you :P

ramen

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Atheists, like Muslims, are often defined in this country by the loudest and most obnoxious of the bunch that get all of the publicity.  That is the image that forms in people's minds. The media has gone out of its way to soften the nagtive image of Muslims, but not of atheists.  Instead, we always here of the stridently anti-religious individuals pursuing lawsuits against mainstream ideas. I tend to understand folks who refer to themselves a agnostic much more than strident atheists, myself. Do you really believe that Atheists voices and interest occupy a larger amout of time and space here in the U.S. than Christians do? They don't even come close. It's not even debatable. Christianity is in the Pledge, the currency, sporting events, defines when some can even buy alcohol REGARDLESS of what faith they are. It permiates ALL aspects of life....whether one is inclined towards that belief system or not. If you really think Atheists get more floor time for themselves than Christians or even Muslims, you really have no clue what the fuck is going on. Reading comprehension is a lost art.  I swear, some people just look for shit to argue about. Where did I type anything to even imply that "Atheists voices and interest occupy a larger amout of time and space here in the U.S. than Christians do."

Gee...I could have sworn I saw something in your post to indicate that...just can't quite put my finger on it.

Quoted: I most certainly am a untrustworthy liar.  For example, when I'm at a function hosted by the big cheese of my company, out of  respect I bow my head when he says grace before the meal.  There's no reason to cause a scene unnecessarily.  What a bad bad guy I am...

Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.



You should say, 'Sir, if you are going to engage in pointless drivel before we eat, then I must leave the table.'

That'll work.

Eric The(PinkSlip)Hun

Is it hypocrisy to show sincere respect to a fellow human being's custom and culture by partially participating in his or her observances?  By blending in without causing a scene?

When I am in a Christian setting, I bow my head, and think kindly thoughts about the other folks praying, with the sense that 'It may do some good, and certainly does no harm'.

At Buddhist temple I make the prostrations, which in Buddhism are not technically worship, but humbling oneself in reapect to Wisdom.  

There are a few things I would NOT do, like bow to Mecca in a Moslem setting... but then again, why in tarnation should I show any respect for a religion which classifies my gender slightly lower than an ugly farm animal?

Anyway, Eric, I usually enjoy your posts, and just wanted to say Hello to a believer whom I think is a pretty good hearted example of his faith.

My posts in this thread are all light-hearted and given in jest.



Eric The(Hypothetical)Hun

Quoted: Gee...I could have sworn I saw something in your post to indicate that...just can't quite put my finger on it.

Well, since you seem to insist on being dense, allow me to help you with the text you so obnoxiously highlighted:

Atheists, like Muslims, are often defined in this country by the loudest and most obnoxious of the bunch that get all of the publicity.  That is the image that forms in people's minds.

The average person on the street - i.e. folks participating in this survey, when they hear "atheist" don't automatically picture folks like Dino who quietly stand by while others participate in prayer.  Instead, they think of the guy who told his daughter not to say the Pledge of Allegiance - and turned it in to a huge court case.  They think of the guy who wants the crosses off of city seals, or who wants the Ten Commandments off of a courthouse lawn.  They think of the guy who wants "In God We Trust" off of our money.  THESE are the "atheists" who make the news - so, even of the majority is not the type to attack such cultural icons, they do not get any press.

Nothing in the above statement suggests whether Christians or Atheists's interests are dominant in our society.  In fact, the only thing you possibly COULD infer is that Christian's interests are - otherwise it would make no sense to suggest the Atheists in question were rabble-rousing against the Christian culture at large, nor would it explain the results of the poll.

The media has gone out of its way to soften the negative image of Muslims, but not of atheists.  Instead, we always here of the stridently anti-religious individuals pursuing lawsuits against mainstream ideas.

No effort is made to remind people regularly, each time some prominent ACLU Atheist type attacks yet another time-honored element of American culture, that "Atheism is a philosophy of peace" and that "the majority of Atheists are peaceful people who just want to raise their kids in a secure environment."

Again, while the above statements says a lot about media focus - and its effect on the perceptions of groups by the average American - nothing in there suggests that Atheist voices occupy more time and space than Christian ones.  In fact, my statement that the atheists that make the news pursue lawsuits AGAINST mainstream ideas pretty much makes it clear that the atheists are NOT the mainstream.

Reading is fundamental.

ETA: Nevermind...just not worth the time.

Quoted: My posts in this thread are all light-hearted and given in jest. Eric The(Hypothetical)Hun

is it time for a group hug now?

Quoted: Quoted: My posts in this thread are all light-hearted and given in jest. Eric The(Hypothetical)Hun is it time for a group hug now?

I'll see y'all in Hell, first!



Eric The(FeelTheLove?)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My posts in this thread are all light-hearted and given in jest. Eric The(Hypothetical)Hun is it time for a group hug now? I'll see y'all in Hell, first! Eric The(FeelTheLove?)Hun

It takes a big man to be in touch enough with his emotions to hug another man.

It takes a bigger man to laugh at him

Quoted: There are a few things I would NOT do, like bow to Mecca in a Moslem setting... but then again, why in tarnation should I show any respect for a religion which classifies my gender slightly lower than an ugly farm animal?

Why do you think that?

Let's look at the Christian religion, one that loves and respects women so much.

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

In Islam, Adam is the first sinner.


"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

In Islam, nobody is to be submitted to as unto the Lord. God is the number one thing.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)

"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)


You probably think that women are oppressed in Islam because they are obligated to wear a hijab (hair covering) and you've seen the way the Taliban treated them. The reason that women wear the hijab is because men are regarded as weaker than women in controlling their sexual desires and believing women are supposed to keep their beauty only for their husbands. Section of Quran 24:31- "And say to the believing women......that they should draw their head-coverings over the neck opening (of their dresses) , and not display their ornaments except to their husbands, their fathers....." In Islam women are respected for their inner beauty and intelligence rather than the size of their breasts.

The Taliban weren't the Islamic ideal just as there is no true Islamic state in existence today.

You might be shocked to find that much of Islamic law (shari'ah) was based on reports by a woman! Aisha, one of the wives of the Prophet SWS was highly respected in her time and even led men into battle! Men would come to her for religious answers all the time and she was a very esteemed Islamic scholar.

Here are some rights that Islam gives women:

The right and duty to obtain education.

The right to have their own independent property.

The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

Equality of reward for equal deeds.

The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power. (ie. the right to vote in the seventh century- which wasn't given to women in the US until 1920)

The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him.

The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

(taken from www.islamic.org.uk/womright.html)

I very much hope that the day will come when Moslem women are accorded those rights.

Quoted: I very much hope that the day will come when Moslem women are accorded those rights.

You got that right!

Until then.....

Eric The(Unassimilated)Hun

I was expecting a longer reply. If I can't show you that Muslim women are accorded their rights in Islam then maybe someone reading this will decide to look for themselves and see the truth. I don't know how you would know what kind of rights Muslim women have when your only source of information is the Western newscasts that cover Muslims, not Islam itself.

Here are some quotes from the Qur'an:

[4.7] "Men shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, and women shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, whether there is little or much of it; a stated portion."

- Right to inheritance


[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical  women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.

[9.71] And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[9.72] "Allah has promised to the believing men and the believing women gardens, beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetual abode; and best of all is Allah's goodly pleasure; that is the grand achievement."

[9.67] "The hypocritical men and the hypocritical women are all alike; they enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands; they have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them; surely the hypocrites are the transgressors."

[4.32] "And do not covet that by which Allah has made some of you excel others; men shall have the benefit of what they earn and women shall have the benefit of what they earn; and ask Allah of His grace; surely Allah knows all things."

[33.35] "Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward."

[24.12] "Why did not the believing men and the believing women, when you heard it, think well of their own people, and say: This is an evident falsehood?"

[33.73] So Allah will chastise the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, and Allah will turn (mercifully) to the believing women, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

- Men and women are spiritually equal


[4.75] "And what reason have you that you should not fight in the way of Allah and of the weak among the men and the women and the children, (of) those who say: Our Lord! cause us to go forth from this town, whose people are oppressors, and give us from Thee a guardian and give us from Thee a helper."

- Fight for the oppressed and the weak women.


[24.23] Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

[24.26] "Bad women are for bad men and bad men are for bad women. Good women are for good men and good men are for good women."


This is just in the Qur'an. The Hadith (narrations of specific sayings or doings of the Prophet SWS) are filled with things that prove the same point. It's not that hard to find all of this out. I'm no Islamic scholar- I don't know that much about Islam and still you can't miss the fact that Islam values women. What is your response to the Bible quotes I posted?

Quoted: Quoted: I very much hope that the day will come when Moslem women are accorded those rights. ericthehun.zoto.com/img/45/7b146270ccd138908521abdc4e064b17-.jpg You got that right! Until then..... Eric The(Unassimilated)Hun

So because some Muslims kill women Islam must teach that, right? No. Read what I just posted.

Quoted: Quoted: There are a few things I would NOT do, like bow to Mecca in a Moslem setting... but then again, why in tarnation should I show any respect for a religion which classifies my gender slightly lower than an ugly farm animal? Why do you think that? Let's look at the Christian religion, one that loves and respects women so much. "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2) "But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5) "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) "For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9) "Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14) In Islam, Adam is the first sinner. "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24) In Islam, nobody is to be submitted to as unto the Lord. God is the number one thing. "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35) "Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13) "A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25) You probably think that women are oppressed in Islam because they are obligated to wear a hijab (hair covering) and you've seen the way the Taliban treated them. The reason that women wear the hijab is because men are regarded as weaker than women in controlling their sexual desires and believing women are supposed to keep their beauty only for their husbands. Section of Quran 24:31- "And say to the believing women......that they should draw their head-coverings over the neck opening (of their dresses) , and not display their ornaments except to their husbands, their fathers....." In Islam women are respected for their inner beauty and intelligence rather than the size of their breasts. The Taliban weren't the Islamic ideal just as there is no true Islamic state in existence today. You might be shocked to find that much of Islamic law (shari'ah) was based on reports by a woman! Aisha, one of the wives of the Prophet SWS was highly respected in her time and even led men into battle! Men would come to her for religious answers all the time and she was a very esteemed Islamic scholar. Here are some rights that Islam gives women: The right and duty to obtain education. The right to have their own independent property. The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it. Equality of reward for equal deeds. The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power. (ie. the right to vote in the seventh century- which wasn't given to women in the US until 1920) The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more. The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice. The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can't stand him. The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations). The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband. (taken from www.islamic.org.uk/womright.html)

Look, I've often been accused of being one of the "Muslim Apologists" on this board, but COME ON!  ACTIONS speak louder than words.

Such cries of likely truth will continue to fall on deaf ears here in the West until we see it with our own eyes.  Perhaps the Koran cannot account for the dismal life and rights of women under nations purporting to practice Sharia law - if not, then where are the madrassas that teach otherwise?  Why is every self proclaimed Imam in the parts of the world where the Koran is likely the ONLY text so controlling of their women?  Where is the protest against such obviously UN-ISLAMIC treatment?

Even in the Christian Amish and Mernnonite Communities of the US, or the Jewish Hasidic or "religious" groups as they are called in Israel - you just don't see oppression of women on any level like that you see in the Islamic heartland.

I'm not denying that women are sometimes mistreated by Muslims. What I'm saying is that Islam does not teach that. The media has blown this up so much to make it seem like women are being killed left and right and they aren't even considered human beings. It's not like that.

There is a movement going on to stop this treatment but Muslims don't feel that they are accountable to anyone else but God for what they are doing so you don't see it on front page news.

Don't you think that with everything happening lately that it's a little hard to get a balanced view about what Islam is about? People need to educate themselves about what Islam truly says. If one Muslim does something then that doesn't mean that the other billion Muslims in the world are responsible for it.

EDIT- The world right now isn't in a particularly religious phase. Is it a surprise that people don't follow Islam and distort it to their liking when premarital sex and other things forbidden by Christianity are the accepted norm in a Christian country? The reason why it's different with Muslim countries is because they not only distort Islam, they make their form of distorted Islam their purpose for living and they implement it everywhere. Christianity is fairly harmless in this regard because it's easy for people to practice it only every Sunday but Muslims are encouraged to but totally and completely Muslim in all of their actions. This is just my opinion on the matter though, I don't pretend to fully understand it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I very much hope that the day will come when Moslem women are accorded those rights. ericthehun.zoto.com/img/45/7b146270ccd138908521abdc4e064b17-.jpg You got that right! Until then..... Eric The(Unassimilated)Hun So because some Muslims kill women Islam must teach that, right? No. Read what I just posted.

Sorry, my friend, but it's not like such scenes as are depicted in that photo was unheard of in Islamdom.

And while the cut and paste 'rights of women' looks all well and good, can you name the Islamic dominated countries where these rights are being actively and extensively enforced?

Not anywhere I know of in the Middle East...maybe in Asia? In Africa?

Maybe in some Christian Church in Saudi Arabia?



Whoops!

That last one was just a jibe at the attitude that Islam has towards its fellow 'People of the Book.'

While we can all witness the mosques that are being built throughout our nation, and in the West.

'Jihad-in-slow-motion', perhaps?

Eric The(WesternCiv101)Hun

I didn't expect any of you to even consider what I said so I'm not surprised that I'm getting this type of response.

The one country that is making an effort to implement these rights is Palestine under Hamas- considered a terrorist group by the US.

If you knew anything about the way the Islamic empire was run a thousand years ago you would know that the rights of non-Muslims (Christians and Jews in particular) were protected under the law. You use the Saudis as an example. That shows how little you understand how Muslims in the US view Muslim countries around the world.

The attitude that Islam has towards them? It should be "the attitude that some Muslims have towards them."

EDIT- Think about why you even know about Islamic "oppression" of women. The government used it as a reason to invade Afghanistan so it was all over the news. Do you really know how much oppression and torture is going on around the world right now? It's not like Muslims have a monopoly on it but some people would like you to think that they do.

Lol I guess I am a Muslim hijacker. Thread hijacker that is.

Quoted: I'm not denying that women are sometimes mistreated by Muslims. What I'm saying is that Islam does not teach that. The media has blown this up so much to make it seem like women are being killed left and right and they aren't even considered human beings. It's not like that. There is a movement going on to stop this treatment but Muslims don't feel that they are accountable to anyone else but God for what they are doing so you don't see it on front page news. Don't you think that with everything happening lately that it's a little hard to get a balanced view about what Islam is about? People need to educate themselves about what Islam truly says. If one Muslim does something then that doesn't mean that the other billion Muslims in the world are responsible for it.

On that, you and I are in agreement.

In Tall Afar, Al Quaeda in Iraq moved in and assassinated every Imam who preached anything other than the Bin Laden party line.  The sad truth is, the "might makes right" rule in the middle east PRE-DATES Islam, and now warlords simply use Islam to further their agenda.  Quite frankly, I fear the Koran and Hadith often make such too easy.

Islam lacks any central authority on Earth, so local congregations are easily swayed by radical Imams.  My concern is that there are TOO many such Imams.

Also, when literacy spread in Europe, and the average man started reading the Bible himself, it led to huge religious reforms and a period of enlightenment and an increase in human rights.  It seems to me that all too often similar direct Koran study only leads to more radicalism and violence.

The wars that broke out in Europe were mostly along the lines of people wanting to be able to worship their own way, whereas the violence in the middle east seems - to me - to be more about people trying to impose THEIR way upon others.

Sometimes I wonder how Europe would have turned out if it did not have a central Church and hierarchical tradition - both to rebel agains and to reform itself from within.

Many people cry for an Islamic reformation - but how can such occur when there is no central recognized earthly authority to reform?

This could probably be a whole 'nother thread, but it would likely get locked in seconds.  Few Muslims stay on this board for long - it is a hostile environment to say the least.

Quoted: The one country that is making an effort to implement these rights is Palestine under Hamas- considered a terrorist group by the US.

You mean because they began using young unmarried females as suicide bombers for use in Israel?



How egalitarian of them!

Now, you say that Hamas is 'considered a terrorist group by the US', but do you think it a terrorist group?

It either is, or it isn't.

Well?

If you knew anything about the way the Islamic empire was run a thousand years ago you would know that the rights of non-Muslims (Christians and Jews in particular) were protected under the law.

Yes, Jews and Christians were considered 'second-class' citizens.

Just as they are today, IF they are permitted to live...<gack!>

Does the word dhimmitude ring a bell?

It means 'protected', and I am certain that it is used in the same manner as Islam 'protected' women.

Which is not at all.

BTW, are you glad that Moslems are not dhimmis in this country, or anywhere in the West?

Such 'protection' would be considered an insult.

But Westerners are supposed to be joyful that they are 'protected'?

Tell that to Nick Berg....

Here's a grainy photo of him about to be 'protected' into the Next World...



Bravo!

(Sound one one hand clapping)

Eric The(Historical)Hun

There once was a central authority on Islam but it's long gone now because it was based in the Islamic Empire. If you go into Islam with the intent to make it seem like your point of view is right then you can manipulate what it says to that end. Direct Qur'an study doesn't really lead to more violence and radicalism because the Qur'an doesn't encourage that. There are some people who do though. I don't think that we can label all the insurgent in Iraq or Afghanistan as Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists. People don't like to be occupied, especially not by a state that is so unlike theirs. What would you do if a Muslim country invaded the US and was occupying it with no end to the occupation in sight? What would you do if their presence was encouraging a civil war and the Americans they put in positions of authority were only murdering innocents?

Muslims don't really like to structure their religion to much like Christians do, that may be one reason why there is no central authority. Many Muslims are also very particular about their beliefs and won't cooperate with others who disagree with them when they should.

Eric, I'm not going to talk about terrorism and suicide bombing and all of that. It's useless to try to have an intelligent conversation about that here. All I know is that Hamas is taking Palestine in the right direction. You think that all Christians and Jews in Islamic countries are killed? Lol. Why do you think that they are so oppressed? You know what happened when the Jews were being oppressed in Europe? A lot of them moved to Islamic states where they would be protected.

Wow, even though I'm trying to separate what Islam teaches from what some Muslims do, you insist on posting things that try to make them into one. It's not like Christians have never murdered Muslims.

We're already so off topic from where I started. It's funny how every time I mention Islam the discussion instantly shifts to terrorism and Al-Qaeda and all of that. I'm not here trying to convince you of anything, just to try to show you what Islam truly is. I wish I wouldn't get involved in these stupid arguments about politics but here it's impossible to avoid that. I'm not going to go into politics any more and I'm not going to respond to posts concerning politics. If you have any questions about what Islam teaches then I'll be more than happy to help you find answers.

Quoted: There once was a central authority on Islam but it's long gone now because it was based in the Islamic Empire. If you go into Islam with the intent to make it seem like your point of view is right then you can manipulate what it says to that end. Direct Qur'an study doesn't really lead to more violence and radicalism because the Qur'an doesn't encourage that. There are some people who do though. I don't think that we can label all the insurgent in Iraq or Afghanistan as Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists. People don't like to be occupied, especially not by a state that is so unlike theirs. What would you do if a Muslim country invaded the US and was occupying it with no end to the occupation in sight? What would you do if their presence was encouraging a civil war and the Americans they put in positions of authority were only murdering innocents? Muslims don't really like to structure their religion to much like Christians do, that may be one reason why there is no central authority. Many Muslims are also very particular about their beliefs and won't cooperate with others who disagree with them when they should.

Occupy?

What OCCUPYING force subverts itself to the duly electeted local authorities?  The occupation ended some time ago - the fact that you spout such nonsense tells me this discussion is OVER.

From the time of the overthrow of the Baathist government, 100% of the US effort has been in facilitating Iraqi SELF-RULE.  To say otherwise is to spout leftist BULLSHIT that I have no time for.

As for when the end of the "occupation" - we will leave when the duly elected government asks us to - just like EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.  Just ask the Philippine government.  Pull your head out of the America-hating lefitst Naom Chomsky BULLSHIT that you are drowning in.

Americans murdering innocents?  I must have missed that invitation in my year over there.  That doesn't even deserve a response - but I'm sure Eric the Hun can post several more pictures - pictures that I'm sure you will blame on some "other" group.

That's the biggest problem I see in Islam - an absolute unwillingness among its followers to perform any honest self-reflection.  Every bad thing is always done by someone or something else - even 9/11 is blamed on the JOOOS.  You can't even conduct an honest After Action Review with an Arab military - they take offense to any suggestion that they could have done better, and always want to blame others.  It is an Arab cultural trait that now pervades Islam, and is becoming all too common in American society as well.

When you want to discuss the world situation INTELLIGENTLY, send me a PM.

Abdulrahman,
  I understand what you are saying but I do not agree.

I've read the Koran and, taken as a whole, it is no more or less objectionable than the Bible taken as a whole.

The problem is the Western nations stopped using the Bible to justify murder a few hundred years ago.  Its a cultural difference between West and Middle East that we just can't get around.

It doesn't matter what the Koran says, it matters what Muslims do.   If someone were to advocate killing people for adultery here, most Christians would stand up and say that is wrong.   For cultural reasons, that doesn't happen in the Islamic world.

Until Islam drags itself out of the 12th century, It will continue to have problems with the West.

Quoted: Eric, I'm not going to talk about terrorism and suicide bombing and all of that.

Good idea!



It doesn't make for very pleasant conversation at all.

It's useless to try to have an intelligent conversation about that here.

Is there an intellectual point that can be made for suicide bombings?

If there is, it escapes me.

I would love to hear your views.

All I know is that Hamas is taking Palestine in the right direction.

That's what I feared you might believe.

But I think differently.

Now that Hamas must come to grips with the loss of Saddam and his cash, and with the possible loss of Western charity...it may just give some thought to actually becoming civilized....maybe.

You think that all Christians and Jews in Islamic countries are killed? Lol.

Why good heavens, no!

Well, just the 'uppity' Christians and Jews are killed.

Yoiu know, the ones who breath regularly.

Why do you think that they are so oppressed?

Because they live in Third World shitholes?

Because they brought it on themselves?

You know what happened when the Jews were being oppressed in Europe? A lot of them moved to Islamic states where they would be protected.

Yes, how many centuries did you have to go back for that one?

The Middle Ages?

Wow, even though I'm trying to separate what Islam teaches from what some Muslims do, you insist on posting things that try to make them into one.

You are like the lone voice of reason in this world then, it would appear.

And they claim to be one, and no one of any significant reputation disputes this.

It's not like Christians have never murdered Muslims.

We did indeed when we were trying to get Christian lands back from those in Islam who stole them.

Think Spain, think Syria, think Egypt, think Lebanon, think Turkey, think a lot of others formerly Christian nations brought under the sword.

It works both ways, you know.

We're already so off topic from where I started. It's funny how every time I mention Islam the discussion instantly shifts to terrorism and Al-Qaeda and all of that. I'm not here trying to convince you of anything, just to try to show you what Islam truly is. I wish I wouldn't get involved in these stupid arguments about politics but here it's impossible to avoid that. I'm not going to go into politics any more and I'm not going to respond to posts concerning politics. If you have any questions about what Islam teaches then I'll be more than happy to help you find answers.

We saw what Islam truly was, now we are about to see what Islam truly is.

And we will all have a front row seat in this theatre.

Eric The(Regrettable)Hun