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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/29/2005 4:01:25 PM EDT
The question occurs to me because of a nail gun thread. I used a nail gun some time back. It used a powder charge much like a .22 casing, and fired a projectile -- a nail. The range, accuracy, weight, and ergonomics would suck, but I figure it could be made into a fair weapon with a little tuning.

suppose someone took one of these things, put a .38 powder charge in it instead of a .22, made a more ballistic nail, and maybe gave the nail a little better guidance and aiming. Now it will reliably drive a nail into the wall from across the room. At what point in the modification process does it legally become a "firearm"?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:06:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:06:51 PM EDT by Gravity_Tester]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
The question occurs to me because of a nail gun thread. I used a nail gun some time back. It used a powder charge much like a .22 casing, and fired a projectile -- a nail. The range, accuracy, weight, and ergonomics would suck, but I figure it could be made into a fair weapon with a little tuning.

suppose someone took one of these things, put a .38 powder charge in it instead of a .22, made a more ballistic nail, and maybe gave the nail a little better guidance and aiming. Now it will reliably drive a nail into the wall from across the room. At what point in the modification process does it legally become a "firearm"?



When you change its use from "tool" to "weapon"...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:08:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:09:19 PM EDT by remedy]
The definition of a firearm is a weapon that uses gunpowder to disharge a "shot" or bullet, to specifically kill or maim people and animals.

If it meets that criteria, it is a firearm and is subject to serialization and/or registration by a manufacturer and tracking by the BATF.


ETA: a nail gun is not a firearm because it is designed for punching nails through wood quickly. If you modified it to be a firearm you would have to fill out a form 1 and register it with the BATF. Simple as that.


- rem
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:08:25 PM EDT
81 %?

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:08:58 PM EDT

At what point does something legally become a "firearm"?


Depends, are you a congressman?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:12:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The definition of a firearm is a weapon that uses gunpowder to disharge a "shot" or bullet, to specifically kill or maim people and animals.

If it meets that criteria, it is a firearm and is subject to serialization and/or registration by a manufacturer and tracking by the BATF.


ETA: a nail gun is not a firearm because it is designed for punching nails through wood quickly. If you modified it to be a firearm you would have to fill out a form 1 and register it with the BATF. Simple as that.


- rem



Not entirely. If it was built in such a way that it did not fit the definitions of NFA weapons, it would not need to be registered at all.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The definition of a firearm is a weapon that uses gunpowder to disharge a "shot" or bullet, to specifically kill or maim people and animals.

If it meets that criteria, it is a firearm and is subject to serialization and/or registration by a manufacturer and tracking by the BATF.


ETA: a nail gun is not a firearm because it is designed for punching nails through wood quickly. If you modified it to be a firearm you would have to fill out a form 1 and register it with the BATF. Simple as that.
- rem



Woah there rem. Unless it had a stock and a barrel less than 16" no registration would be required. I don't think you'd even need a serial number on it as long as you didn't sell it or produce it for commercial resale.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:17:41 PM EDT
Hmm well I've done some reading on creating firearms recently and as far as I can tell anything you create on Form1 needs to have a serial number, one that you create yourself. Same with the creation of a silencer. It has to be serialized and if it is damaged it cannot be repaired, only replaced with another Form1 fill-out and a new serial number, IE, another digit increment on the end of existing number.

- rem
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:17:44 PM EDT
a .22 ramset would fucka man up. .38 ramset used to be more common...but it was tough on the joints. I've used a .22 ramset to set 2x4 floor plates on a crete slab...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:25:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
The definition of a firearm is a weapon that uses gunpowder to disharge a "shot" or bullet, to specifically kill or maim people and animals.



It does use gunpowder and it discharges a shot or bullet. Also, it can be used to kill or maim people or animals, and has been used as such at times.


If it meets that criteria, it is a firearm and is subject to serialization and/or registration by a manufacturer and tracking by the BATF.


Seems to me that it does. What am I missing here, other than maybe the "intent"?


ETA: a nail gun is not a firearm because it is designed for punching nails through wood quickly. If you modified it to be a firearm you would have to fill out a form 1 and register it with the BATF. Simple as that.


- rem



What exactly does "modified it to be a firearm" mean? How about if I take a conventional nail gun and jury-rig it so it will shoot across the room? How about if I make a nail gun that looks like a Colt Peacemaker? (That would be perfectly feasible, AFAIK).
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:26:39 PM EDT
Anything that fires an untethered projectile

Taffy
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:29:07 PM EDT
Legally and according to the BATFE

1968 GCA.

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Excluded is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 and all black powder guns regardless of date of manufacture.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:32:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Legally and according to the BATFE

1968 GCA.

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Excluded is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 and all black powder guns regardless of date of manufacture.



Thanks. Where is the exclusion that keeps us from filling out federal forms for nail guns?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:32:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Legally and according to the BATFE

1968 GCA.

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Excluded is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 and all black powder guns regardless of date of manufacture.



Well, that settles it. Time to ban them for the children.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:40:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
Hmm well I've done some reading on creating firearms recently and as far as I can tell anything you create on Form1 needs to have a serial number, one that you create yourself. Same with the creation of a silencer. It has to be serialized and if it is damaged it cannot be repaired, only replaced with another Form1 fill-out and a new serial number, IE, another digit increment on the end of existing number.

- rem



There are two categories of firearms: Title I and Title II.

What requires registration by BATF are silencers, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles and machine guns. These are Title II firearms.

Title I firearms are everything else. You do not need to file any forms or register it or even put a serial number on it as long as you do not sell it or produce it for commercial sale.

I am currently working on turning one of these:



into a working semi-automatic rifle. 80% receivers are available and are not considered firearms since they are incomplete. Mine will have a new 16.25" barrel to avoid having to file a Form 1 and will fire from a closed bolt with an AR FCG so it cannot be considered a machine gun.

Again, you do not need to file any forms or get any licenses for making a Title I firearm for yourself.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:48:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By remedy:
Hmm well I've done some reading on creating firearms recently and as far as I can tell anything you create on Form1 needs to have a serial number, one that you create yourself. Same with the creation of a silencer. It has to be serialized and if it is damaged it cannot be repaired, only replaced with another Form1 fill-out and a new serial number, IE, another digit increment on the end of existing number.

- rem



There are two categories of firearms: Title I and Title II.

What requires registration by BATF are silencers, short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles and machine guns. These are Title II firearms.

Title I firearms are everything else. You do not need to file any forms or register it or even put a serial number on it as long as you do not sell it or produce it for commercial sale.

I am currently working on turning one of these:

www.centerfiresystems.com/miva/graphics/00000001/M31%20kit%20with%20cut%20receiverB.jpg

into a working semi-automatic rifle. 80% receivers are available and are not considered firearms since they are incomplete. Mine will have a new 16.25" barrel to avoid having to file a Form 1 and will fire from a closed bolt with an AR FCG so it cannot be considered a machine gun.

Again, you do not need to file any forms or get any licenses for making a Title I firearm for yourself.



I been thinking about building one of those too. Where did you get the barrel?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:49:30 PM EDT
Yes but given the size and makeup of a nail gun, can we agree that if converted into a firearm it would fall under Title II ??

Also aren't derringers and zipguns and things of that nature illegal to make? Cane guns? Cell phone guns?



- rem
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:53:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Legally and according to the BATFE

1968 GCA.

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Excluded is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 and all black powder guns regardless of date of manufacture.



Thanks. Where is the exclusion that keeps us from filling out federal forms for nail guns?



Probably because they don't use "ammunition".

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Must be the "Nail Gun Loophole" that the Brady and Feinstein asshats will be weeping about next.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
Hmm well I've done some reading on creating firearms recently and as far as I can tell anything you create on Form1 needs to have a serial number, one that you create yourself. Same with the creation of a silencer. It has to be serialized and if it is damaged it cannot be repaired, only replaced with another Form1 fill-out and a new serial number, IE, another digit increment on the end of existing number.

- rem



If it fits the legal definition of a standard rifle, shotgun, or pistol (non form 1) and you're creating the receiver yourself then it does not need to be serial numbered. However, it is advised that you do so.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:00:58 PM EDT
Go to the source: ATF.gov


(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.
However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from
imported parts.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:17:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
I been thinking about building one of those too. Where did you get the barrel?



IM sent.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:33:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:34:57 PM EDT by Lucidvizion]

Originally Posted By LoginName:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Legally and according to the BATFE

1968 GCA.

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

Excluded is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 and all black powder guns regardless of date of manufacture.



Thanks. Where is the exclusion that keeps us from filling out federal forms for nail guns?



Probably because they don't use "ammunition".

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

Must be the "Nail Gun Loophole" that the Brady and Feinstein asshats will be weeping about next.



Nail guns use a primer and propellant though.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:36:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:
Go to the source: ATF.gov


(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.
However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from
imported parts.





Hmmmm, so how do we assemble Ak's then? The 5 US made parts I guess?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:57:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:10:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
When something is not designed as a weapon then it's industrial not a firearm.

Just like these Remington 8 ga clinker shotguns. The ammunition is industrial use only not ammunition at all, the guns and silencers for the guns are unregulated industrial tools.

www.remington.com/products/ammunition/industrial/kiln_guns.asp



Well, my question is: What does "not designed as a weapon" mean? When does it cross the line from tool to weapon? That example makes it even more unclear. Suppose I took that thing out and tried to hunt ducks with it. Would that make it a firearm?

If I used a regular shotgun in place of that thing as an industrial tool, would that make the shotgun not a "firearm" subject to filling out forms and stuff?

Does it really come down to a question of how they have advertised it?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:33:52 PM EDT
OK, so I build a piece of equipment.

It looks exactly like an M60 machinegun, except it has a longer receiver.

The receiver takes two belts, one holds linked .308 blanks, and one takes linked copper jacketed steel nails. The nails (with copper jackets to protect the nail dispensing tube) measure about three-tenths of an inch in diameter.

Live .308 rounds can not be fed through the belt that holds the blanks.

Have I made a firearm or a tool? Who decides, and what criteria do they use?

BTW, the copper jackets on the nails are frangible and disintegrate on impact, thus allowing the nails to penetrate the wood they are intended to be used on.

A gun or not a gun?
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