User Panel
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:36:19 PM EDT
[#1]
I Hear you, and wrestle with the same questions my self, I don't have the answers. I think things will come to a head eventually they always do it's inevitable.
The question is will step up when it does? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:38:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Easy.
When you see a general firearms collection by the authorities. I mean a real roundup of all weapons in civilian hands. If it's just one or two individuals that are having their weapons confiscated, that is not the time. Hell, that's already happened on many occasions. But when the government says, 'We've had enough and we're taking all weapons out of the hands of citizens.' Eric The(MeetMeAtTheFarm)Hun 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:38:52 PM EDT
[#3]
I've already started.
There are plenty of laws I don't obey. If I get caught for the smaller ones I'll just suck up alittle slap on the wrist. If I ever get nailed for something big? I pity the person who puts his job in front of the U.S. Constitution. Will I win...no...but I damn sure will take some with me. I know Iknow...the supreme court tells me what the constitution means...but ya know. I have a pretty good measure of commn sense and I CAN read. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:41:19 PM EDT
[#4]
I wish I knew Steyr, it seem the litany of abuses keeps increasing along with the gnashing of teeth and the tearing of hair but no action is taken. I don't want to give up my life and family, I can admit that. But when will I be pushed to my limit?
I just don't know, but I do fear for the future and my new son. I wonder what kind of legacy I will leave him and if he will look back and think the same thing Aleksandr Solzhenitsin(sp?) thought. If we had only done something then in the beginning, then maybe the gulags wouldn't have happened. I often wonder when Adams, Jefferson, Washington and the others knew, I wonder if the Good Lord gave them clarity? 96Ag(Thinking a meteor strike would be easier than rising up against the government) 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:41:51 PM EDT
[#5]
But what if that NEVER happens? What if we get to this point... www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=260365 Wouldn't it then be too late? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:42:35 PM EDT
[#6]
You're wondering what will it take to stop this madness and restore our rights to what they were meant to be. I always tell myself, If I'm ever needed, I'll step up to the plate. But I've got a wife and a home and everything. I hope it never comes to that, but gets resolved peacefully and rightfully. Make our voices heard and don't give up. Maybe if some of the gun lovers and true americans actually went to the capitol and protested this assinine law, maybe, just maybe it could have turned out differently. When I read John Ross's book, "Unintended Consequences", I could laugh, cause I never thought it would get like that, but this shit is happening so fast. Just in the last 70 years, we've lost so many of our civil right, it is truly laughable in a serious way. What to do next...........I don't have a clue.
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:42:55 PM EDT
[#7]
This isn't just about guns. We've seen erosion of both individual rights and the characteristics of our capitalist economy, as well as moral values.
There will be no revolution. There will only be economic collapse. Then, there will be only survival and rebuilding. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:43:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Ask Randy Weaver.
I mean did he not draw line in the sand? Nobody came running except the fed. So I dont know. A person stands no chance against the fed. What point do we stand together is the real issue here. We are all in agreement about many things but differ enough in other areas that it would be hard for the majority to stand together on any issue. IMHO CH |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:44:05 PM EDT
[#9]
When it's time to fight, you won't need to ask, you will know.
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:44:14 PM EDT
[#10]
I don't know Steyr, but hearing about "ghost" votes in CA is pushing me a lot closer. That is clear evidence of a tyrranical government.
I have the feeling I'll be leaving this world the same way I entered it: kicking, screaming, and covered in someone elses blood. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:45:45 PM EDT
[#11]
actually...thats a pretty good senario for me. It would certainly clean out a few rats nests. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:47:41 PM EDT
[#12]
td was more about race than guns from the little bit I could stand to read. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:47:53 PM EDT
[#13]
CH, I don't know that we will ever stand together in that way. If we could we'd have a few million armed gun owners standing on the steps of the capital. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:52:54 PM EDT
[#14]
The Supreme Court views the Constitution as a "living document" which must be re-evaluated within the context of an evolving society. I think that is akin to genetic experimenting. The Constitution should be viewed as the inviolate foundation which preserves the integrity of the nation despite changing times.
BTT. It won't happen suddenly enough to incite many people to react. Loss of firearm privilages (rights) will be gradual enought that the average Joe won't even notice until it occurs to him that "Hey, didn't I used to be able to own a gun? What Happened?" Mass seizures would lead to bloody confrontations and in a world of mass media histeria, if only 1% of owners fought back, it would appear on TV like WW III. Imagine the spectre of hundreds or thousands of Branch Davidian debaucles. Governments would likely fall. 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:52:57 PM EDT
[#15]
The Minutemen back in '75-'76 risked all for only a chance at Liberty.
How low we have sunk that we are reluctant to fight to gain back a sliver of what they bought for us with their blood. Any Citizen who is not fully engaged in the ongoing political wars is negligent, IMHO. Our forefathers expected no less than an informed, involved citizenry in order to make their Constitution work. Fact is we have neither, and the Constitution no longer functions. We have only ourselves to blame. Situation could be turned around, but I doubt it. Too many people concerned with style over substance. Look at the members of this board, for example. Must be hundreds of posts about this or that "cool" accessory, but damn few on how to fight the political battle before us. Even fewer pledging their "lives, property, and sacred Honor.". We have only ourselves to blame. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:54:14 PM EDT
[#16]
I don't think Weaver drew a line in the sand, I think it was more a case of being forced into a corner. He was perfectly willing to sit on the mountain and not start anything. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:54:38 PM EDT
[#17]
My paw in law compares our ever eroding rights to someone filling up a bath tub with a thimble. You don't ever see the job being finished but eventually the job will be done.
They are getting them, it will just be a slow process. They will never attempt outright confisication in this country. Not until many decades have passed and enough kids have been "educated" as to the evil of firearms and those who own them. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:55:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Nice. 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:58:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Well, if I was to go by all the keyboard tough guys who proclaim "from my cold dead hands" on here all the time, I'd say the time has come and gone.
I seriously doubt there will be a mass revolt. The vast majority of people are all talk, especially the keyboard tough guys. In fact, I'll go so far as to say they are full of shit - always telling others to take a stand while they sit there and drink a beer having grandiose delusions. People have become complacent and comfortable. The government is exponentially more powerful than it was back in the days of the Revolution. We have seen what happens when a few people take a stand - Ruby Ridge, Waco. The government doesn't use equal and opposite force to crush revolt, it uses massive and overwhelming force to make an example of those who dare take a stand. I'd love to see all these wannabe badasses put their lives and indeed the lives of their families where their big fucking mouths are. When I see some of them walk the walk, then I might have hope and or stand shoulder to shoulder with them. I'll also say that I'd rather die than end up in prison. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:58:59 PM EDT
[#20]
1934 was the time to fight. Perhaps it is time to right this wrong which began our demise.
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Posted: 8/26/2004 1:59:10 PM EDT
[#21]
I tend to agree. I don't think, as Hun suggested, there will be a mass disarming. People will not tolerate radical change. However, feeding them distasing medicines in small doses is another story. That's what's been going on for some time. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Not until a concerted public stands up and says no more will gun owners be looked at as more than just non-conformist nut jobs that like to go bang-bang. DF is correct. It's an erosion of more than just one right. It's a complete degradation of society that has to be changed. Not an easy task. But it needs to start somewhere. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:00:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Easy to say. And what are your solutions? When and how should we fight? What do we do RIGHT NOW? I think everyone here is politically informed and doing their part. Just not enough of us. Are we to blame for others? And if we did fight, spill blood and destroy our lives and families, byt hte same token will there be enough of us to win? Or will we destroy everything in vain? Will only lesser people as you described remain? Would that not only speed up the inevitable? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:02:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Pot and Kettle, ring a bell? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:03:44 PM EDT
[#24]
letters, calls and emails only go so far.
How many really care? The persons behind this never comprimise. That is why they are powerful. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:04:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Glad you said this. Scalia (and Thomas, I believe) have both said they explicity hold the "inviolate document" view. This underscores the importance of electing presidents who will appoint people like that to the court. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:04:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Good questions that nobody here can answer, me thinks. CH |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:07:46 PM EDT
[#27]
This guy is fighting the system:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=266771 is he a nut or Patriot? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:08:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Unfortunately Americans will never stand up. The US government can and does impose many sanctions and ridiculous laws on us already it has become common practice for most of us. Like a beat dog, they know no better life, just that this is the way it is. Smack us, we get pissed, smack us again we get pissed. We are too resilient, to many liberals.
The years of abuse by a tyrant government 3k miles away leading up to the revolutionary war was peanuts compared to what is happening today. We fought for less with less to loose. Britain demanded 33% tax on every thing we sold or traded. We had small farmhouses and livestock and lives at risk of loosing for those that stood up and fought. Today look at your paycheck and see what you take home. Tax on top of tax for purchases, don’t pay or evade the tax the government sets-go to jail. The list goes on. Like your MTV, SUV, house in the country, toys? Fight the government or threaten to fight and you will lose it all. We simply have too much to loose too gain to little if anything at all. They know this. Armchair freedom fighters will say “take it from my cold dead hands”. When they come and reality ticks in they see no neighbors fighting with them, their wife’s, daughters, sons crying while they have forty agents pointing rifles at you waiting to kill you. Is it worth it for your family? I don’t have the answer but I will fight smartly with a pen, phone, and if necessary with my rifle when there is nothing left to lose |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:08:08 PM EDT
[#29]
I doubt that our government would resort to a collecting of all firearms (as we have seen in other countries), preferring to let time & political correctness ostracize those who understand why the second amendment was written. It would be striking to compare the laws & obligations of citizens now with those 50, 100, 150 & 200 years ago (and those imposed by the British prior to the Revolution). Anyone know of such a site?
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:09:45 PM EDT
[#30]
How often do you train with your weapon? Not just shooting from a bench under a cover, but snap shooting drills at 25-200 yards? Shooting from the prone, kneeling, sitting, laying down, around obstacles, while moving? Rapid reload drills for time? Timed malfunction clearing drills? Transition drills? How often do you practice battle drills (react to contact, aussie peel, flanking maneuvers, etc.)? Practice setting up ambushes and counter-ambush techniques? Ever plan a mock raid? Have commo and comsec SOP's in place? How often do you discuss these issues with like minded indivuduls and acutally PREPARE for anything? Hell, how often do YOU even work out, run, hike with a pack, lift weights, practice self-defense? Some of us do all of these things and more. It's not all just idle bullshit dude. Maybe you should DO something instead of talking shit. As for the original question. I don't have a clue really. IF TOTAL confiscation would happen, then it's go time. But they know that. I won't happen like that. Not for a while anyway. But there just may come a day, and I pray not, that a stand will need to be taken. Fuck it, I'd rather die than live under the boot heel of tyranny. I don't watch football, and don't have cable so what will I miss anyway? 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:16:05 PM EDT
[#31]
Steyr before I go here I want to say I do not want this to be construed as racist. This is just based on my personal experiences and what I have been seen.
1. There are millions of illegal immigrants in the Southwest States that would happily vote Democrat. (Many do illegally anyhow) They also interestingly enough vote for the folks with the same ideologies that fucked up their countries of origin with Marxist viewpoints and heavy government controls. The U.S. Constitution means nothing more than a loophole to keep them in this country! Many countries such as Mexico even allow for dual citizenship so a Mexican can even become an American Citizen and later in life retire in Mexico and pull Social Security. (Anyhow another topic) They do not care one iota of the Foundation of Personal Freedom when it comes to the 2nd Amendment; nor in general do they really understand. 2. Many Americans do not realize when Ted Kennedy speaks and enjoys his high and mighty position as a U.S. Senator. There was an English Subject (A Traitor to the Crown) who shot and killed an English Soldiers for the chance to become an America Citizen and in the end put Ted Kennedy on his soapbox. Also if it were left to the modern Democrat to fight our Revolutionary War of over 200 years ago we would not be the United States of America today. But give the left credit they have redefined history we are truly screwed when it comes to the brainwashed sheep. I think there may not be a solution but a stalemate that can only be made. The only true way to stop the Govt is to try to get polticians that will stall and strangle budgets from government agencies. Try to kill the beast by not feeding it. (No Politician or Political Party has the balls or interest in doing this though) |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:16:30 PM EDT
[#32]
I see your point and mostly agree. However, I don't believe that an armed revolt is what's called for. At least not yet. How do other organizations get things done? The key word being organizations. They band together, raise money, employ lobbyist, secure a spokesperson and make a lot of noise so that people can't help but hear what they're saying. Most of them get the job done by reciting rhetoric and misinformation. (I'll stop short of calling them liars) |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:17:57 PM EDT
[#33]
God given rights were NOT taken away by a vote, Rights are taken away by the force of arms!
If you want to exercise God given rights you must do so by the God given authority! Voting will never restore Life Liberty and Property! The man that takes compensation in the form of a paycheck to deprive you of property {and that includes your life and freedom of movement} is your enemy! The legislature doesnt confiscate your arms, the jusrice system does not confiscate your arms all they have is harmless paper, but it is the men with a guns and badges under the color of law that take every right you let them take by not resisting. Every agent that follows orders rather than serve the right of the individual is a trator to the constitution. Organize, equip, train, discipline. National Standards for the state Militia |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:19:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Well, SteyerAug, since you are a real FFL, when they come for you first, let's see what you do, and we'll all follow suit. AG is right. Most people are blowhards and full of shit. I couldn't count the number of ramshackle trailers I have been outside of with some fat-gutted, lardass, long-haired, bearded, meth professor who proclaims "You'll never take me alive!!" And then after the first gas bomb comes running out screaming "Don't shoot me!!" There hasn't been good organization against encroaching government in this country since the Boston Tea Party. "They came for the Fags-but I was not a Fag. . . . . . .They came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew. . . . . .They came for the Long-Hairs, but I was not a Hippie. . . . . .Then they came for me."
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:19:52 PM EDT
[#35]
There is no defining issue with the populace.
My solution would be to teach the children about history and especially the founding of this country and why. It isn't being done in public schools for a reason. It is obvious when George Washington gets one half of a page in a history book and Marylin Monroe gets six. My children were taught American history at home and they are now adults waiting to take action when that action gets defined by? Their peersmissed a beat so here we go again.  GM |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:25:24 PM EDT
[#36]
No, sad.
I propose no solutions for others save that we all redouble our efforts to peaceably regain control of our government. Anything else would be presumptious, and seditious.
I fear you presume too much. It's certain that far too few gunowners are active. If only 10% of gunowners were active, we could see the repeal of bills going back to GRA '68.
Who can say? This alternative presupposes that we have sat on our collective asses and lost the easy fight. If so, then we deserve what comes.
There once was a time when I thought the world was slowly and inevitably clawing its collective way out of the darkness of tyranny and moving towards the light of Liberty. I no longer believe that. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:25:28 PM EDT
[#37]
LOL. 2 things. 1. From my original post... "I don't have the answers..." 2. They are gonna come for a LOT of people before they come for me. Course since you're not really a FFL you should be perfectly safe. 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:25:58 PM EDT
[#38]
I wish ther were more here n OR that thought like that.
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:30:57 PM EDT
[#39]
We fight right HERE and right NOW - and we fight every day and everywhere!  We hit our enemy every time the poke their heads up. We call in air strikes. We mobilize and we go on the offensive. Or else we get over-run. Now obviously I'm talking metaphorically but my point remains - whether it's the AWB amendment we defeated in the Senate back in March or the "Ghost vote" today in Kalifornia - we need to fight every day, every time and everywhere that the antis attack us. You wrote a very good, clear post here - but did you also write letters to the major newspapers in Kalifornia and to the Kalifornia legislators and Kalifornia Govinator and to all the major talkshow outlets ripping them for casting "ghost votes" that ban one of the SAFEST (according to FBI data) firearms in the country not to mention violating 35million Californian's RKBA as protected by the United States Constitution? THAT'S how we fight them. We fight them at the ballot box, in the newspapers, on the internet, on the talk shows. We fight them by bringing a "Newbie-A-Month" to the funrange. Or even a "Newbie-A-Week"! We keep pushing back - until they up the ante again.  |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:36:40 PM EDT
[#40]
I agree totally. He WAS man enough though to push back. And THAT is a damn good trait for a free man. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:38:04 PM EDT
[#41]
We can fight with multiple letters , e-mails and phone calls today.
Or fight otherwise tomorrow. Sad to say too few bestir themselves to do the easy thing. Pessimistic? No, realist. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:41:33 PM EDT
[#42]
This will be the most telling problem. Succeeding generations will be fed revisionist history and the pablum of political correctness to the point that they would look agasht at all of us for even wanting to own firearms. They will be as different from you and I as one of those brainwashed automatons in Red China. The media and the educational system control how future generations will view issues such a personal freedom. For Christ's sake, kids can't even play dodge ball in school anymore because it sends a message of violence and of being singled out. Violent video games are probably only tolerated because someone in the Pentagon realizes that the military is going to need soldiers in the future not a bunch of pacifist, mewling, herbivores (spittle flying from mouth)! What the FUCK is the NRA doing? This is our only real power. 
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:41:35 PM EDT
[#43]
haha..MC, I truly would enjoy havin a beer with you. You are a smart man. And that is correct. The fight is every day. I am and have been with you.  It does feel good to talk about testosterone stuff thought ,doesn't it?
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:43:05 PM EDT
[#44]
And look how the govt reacted to his pushing back! |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:45:38 PM EDT
[#45]
I try to convert as many people that I can as I interact with them.
When the time comes, I will shed all political ideology and divisionary thought to stand together with others who believe in freedom. I will fight to the death to protect the concepts which founded this nation. Until that time, I will work to get people to the polls, understand the issues, and support likeminded candidates and initiatives. If that effort ever fails to the point of disarmament and socialist rule, I can and will kill any man who opposes freedom, the Constutution, and wishes to strip me of my rights. I am emotionally to commit acts that would make Tim McVeigh and the average Hamas bomber look like fucking choir boys. I have no desire to, but no fear of strapping myself with plastic explosives and greeting tyranny with a loud bang. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:47:19 PM EDT
[#46]
 I wish I had an answer beyond "I'll know it when happens" but I don't. I DO know that I'm in the process of making some MAJOR changes to my life including moving from urban SoCal to the rural Pacfic Northwest, eliminating all debts and planning for a lifestyle that involves self-sufficiency and self-reliance as part of the package. I think RAVYN is closer to the truth:
This is ugly to be sure, but we have the blueprints to do it right AGAIN. The Founding Documents of this nation are the best that man has ever come up with. The system we now live under is just a pale and distorted echo of the promise this country once offered to its citizens (and the world). |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:57:07 PM EDT
[#47]
The reason it works is because the people who have taken our rights have banded together in a concerted effort to do so and won while the majority has sit back and uncollectively allowed it to happen.
Any questions? |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:59:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Lets see. The original founders were taxed at 1/5th the level we are taxed today, and they found that unendurable.
It ain't gonna happen folks. No revolt, just a few "lone nuts" going out in a blaze of would be glory when the tactical team comes busting in. The confiscationists have dropped the big-bang approach, and are taking the incremental approach. First, deny that the 2nd Ammendment applies to the RKBA. Second, apply the "sporting" litmus test to firearms. Third, attack the issue in state legislatures. The goal, marginalize the firearms supporting population politically and socially. In 20 years, the number of people who own firearms will be far outnumbered by the people who view people who own firearms with trepidation and fear. And they will vote to remove your rights so they can sleep comfortably at night under the watchful eye and gentle hands of their master, the nanny state. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 3:32:29 PM EDT
[#49]
I just re-read the CONSTITUTION and the Bill of Rights, and all 17 additional ammendments yesterday, it opened my eyes again.
PLEASE READ THESE!!! They are great documents, but they are only a framework for our government and from my limited understanding it seems there is much room for what is going on in this country (some is clearly outside of legal as well). It is a sad, sad statement, but true most citizens are comfortably complacent. I have a family, own a home, cars and other toys. I care for my family more than myself. Their freedom and liberty depends on my freedom and liberty. I struggle with this everyday internally; I think I should be doing more for my country. Meaning I should be serving. Due to family obligations, military service is not an option, at the moment. Civic service is, and that is a path I'm pursuing. Having said that, I think there is another idea to throw out there.... conscription, aka, the draft. Would I be willing to go myself? Yes. Would I be willing to let my child(ren) serve? Yes, it would be hard, but yes. |
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Posted: 8/26/2004 3:33:23 PM EDT
[#50]
I believe the fight has to start at the state level. The restrictive gun laws that are being passed in California, Maryland and elsewhere are clear violations of the 2nd Amendment. I don't understand how this can happen. Could a state also decide to limit free speach or voting rights? I think not. Can you imagine the protests and anarchy that would occur if, say Alabama or Tennessee passed a law prohibiting free speech or the right of blacks to vote? Now, contrast that image with our reaction to some of the recent restrictions that Steyr-AUG has pointed out. What did we do. Obviously not enough. In my own state of Washington it is now illegal to buy or own automatic weapons parts. If me and my fellow Washintonians don't get off our asses, we'll be the next ones to lose our right to own AR15s, FNs, etc. Voting for pro gun candidates is the obvious first step, but it is also important to support the NRA (as imperfect as they may be) and other pro gun organizations. A person shouldn't even think about the next steps (non-compliance, etc.) before he or she has exhausted all lawfull avenues. With all that being said. The Bill of Rights is a legal document, ordained by our creator. It guarantees us certain unalienable rights, one of which is the right to KEEP and BEAR arms. This right is no less important than the right to free speech or the right to vote. Anyone who violates this sacred document, ordained by God, and paid for with the blood of my fellow Americans is my enemy. I have, and will defend our Constitution against all enemies foreign or domestic. I will fight my enemies at the voting booth and elsewhere. I will fight them wherever I meet them. I will not break the law unless they have broken the law. And that's all I got to say about that. |
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