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Posted: 10/22/2013 1:38:25 PM EDT
How big is a brigade?








Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno revealed this week that just two Army brigades are combat-ready, with budget cuts hampering the military's ability to train its own troops.


The startling comments were made Monday at the Association of the U.S. Army conference. Odierno and Army Secretary John McHugh both addressed the fallout from the budget cuts, as well as the recent partial government shutdown, and appealed to lawmakers to restore some stability to military funding.




Link Posted: 10/22/2013 1:40:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2013 1:40:58 PM EDT by Squatch]
A brigade is anywhere from 4-5000 soldiers, depending on what type of unit.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 1:43:05 PM EDT
All part of the plan....meanwhile dhs is gearing up and reaching full oppression status
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 1:50:01 PM EDT
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:13:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.
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^ this

8,000 - 10,000 troops standing between us and attack... Heads should roll
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:14:57 PM EDT
How do they determine if a BCT is combat ready?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:15:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
How do they determine if a BCT is combat ready?
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They hit what they aim at.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:16:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2013 2:18:05 PM EDT by Mastadon]
Well, I hope those are the two that are in Afghanistan.



ETA:

That doesn't count brigades in Afghanistan, but Odierno noted those aren't really combat-ready either, since they're deployed for "training and advising only."
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So who's doing the fighting?  We are still in a "war" over there, right?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:16:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By capnrob97:
How big is a brigade?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/22/army-chief-just-2-brigades-combat-ready/?intcmp=HPBucket

Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno revealed this week that just two Army brigades are combat-ready, with budget cuts hampering the military's ability to train its own troops.

The startling comments were made Monday at the Association of the U.S. Army conference. Odierno and Army Secretary John McHugh both addressed the fallout from the budget cuts, as well as the recent partial government shutdown, and appealed to lawmakers to restore some stability to military funding.



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psh... that is plenty right? Like we would ever need more than that...
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:17:41 PM EDT


Are we sure this really isn't just a fund raiser?  I mean at the very minimum, we have the most blooded troops on the planet, and that has to count



for something if we have to do some killing.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:17:52 PM EDT
Need moar money!  Moar! MOAR!  


Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:21:47 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:




Are we sure this really isn't just a fund raiser?  I mean at the very minimum, we have the most blooded troops on the planet, and that has to count


View Quote

for something if we have to do some killing.
A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.



 
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:25:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By madmathew:
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 
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Originally Posted By madmathew:
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Are we sure this really isn't just a fund raiser?  I mean at the very minimum, we have the most blooded troops on the planet, and that has to count
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 



Not to mention the vast majority of Soldiers who have deployed never actually saw combat, they spent their time drinking green beans coffee on the FOB. We really don't have that many true "combat" vets.

A good way to measure how combat ready a BDE is would be to check their motorpools. How many prime movers are deadlined? How long are they waiting for parts? The logistics chain in a Unit is the true measure of it's deployability. And judging by what I see in motorpools every day...........we are a soup sandwich.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:26:53 PM EDT
Being active duty I will say it's probably more than that but the average soldier is most definitely not prepared for combat. We have more eo/sexual harassment classes than anything and ranges are hard to come by nowadays. A lot of soldiers are getting out because they are tired of the political bs everyday and walking around on eggshells for fear they will offend someone. I have been in for 5 years now and I have most certainly seen the army change from the short time I've been in and not for the good.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:27:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By madmathew:
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 
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Originally Posted By madmathew:
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Are we sure this really isn't just a fund raiser?  I mean at the very minimum, we have the most blooded troops on the planet, and that has to count
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 


What the army needs is another 10k 42As, since they want to be the new postal service. Then they'll be peacetime ready.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:28:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Being active duty I will say it's probably more than that but the average soldier is most definitely not prepared for combat. We have more eo/sexual harassment classes than anything and ranges are hard to come by nowadays. A lot of soldiers are getting out because they are tired of the political bs everyday and walking around on eggshells for fear they will offend someone. I have been in for 5 years now and I have most certainly seen the army change from the short time I've been in and not for the good.
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Inscom?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:31:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By patchouli:
Need moar money!  Moar! MOAR!  


View Quote



I can't speak to specifics but when the military budget is cut they still have to feed, clothe, house, pay healthcare for, etc the soldiers.
The stockpiles of ammunition were already paid for, the DOD can't get out of some contracts etc so they just cut training.
That way they don't have to pay for new ammunition to replace that used in training, fuel, extra food (MREs are probably more expensive than chow halls), spare parts, etc.

So basically the training budget and any sort of discretionary amounts that commanders have access to to improve the issues they see at the lower levels is gone
Travel is cut so people don't get proper certifications and classes that were consolidated at fewer locations (to save money), etc.

In the end, the readiness is reduced.  Soldiers are still there, full of piss and vinegar but you can only train so much by saying "bang."


The military could stand to lose probably a lot more of their budget but due to the way congress and the president structure cuts it is done in a manner that leaves the social welfare aspect of the force intact while taking away the service of national defense for the people--basically they go out of their way to fuck the customer (the US citizen) the same way they did by closing the Colorado River, the monuments, and as much of the rest of the outdoors as they could manage.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:31:30 PM EDT
Not Intel here, 88M.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:36:19 PM EDT
He said that after the sequester kicked in, "we had to stop training basically" in the last six months of the year. He said the recently passed stopgap funding bill has further reduced the Army's ability to train, and warned that the recurring budget battles in Washington could have serious consequences for America's fighting force.

"So the worst-case scenario is you ask me deploy thousands of soldiers somewhere, and we have not properly trained them to go, because we simply don't have the dollars and money," he said.

...

"Right now, we have in the Army two brigades that are trained. That's it. Two," he said.
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More proof that the sequester was a bad deal. If cuts were to come then more discretion should have been given to the pentagon... I feel dirty for saying that but at least it would leave a chance whereas now so much has to come from operations/maintenance.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:36:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By madmathew:
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 
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Originally Posted By madmathew:
Originally Posted By Formergrunt94:

Are we sure this really isn't just a fund raiser?  I mean at the very minimum, we have the most blooded troops on the planet, and that has to count
for something if we have to do some killing.

A shitload of them aren't in the military anymore.   The SMA made it clear earlier this year when he started talked about kicking out anyone with tattoos, and that's just the tip of the iceberg of bullshit people in the military have to put up with now.
 


One of the best guys I knew in the military got out today after 8 years, he served in combat in Iraq, and Afghanistan with 1st, 2nd, and 101st divisions, was promoted rapidly and as far as I could tell he loved the army.  I thought he'd be a lifer.  I guess he couldn't put up with the bullshit anymore.

I am actually very surprised by the number of guys that are getting out after having reenlisted once.  I thought for sure that the guys who re-upped once would be lifers but damn near every guy I served with that wasn't already on their 3rd enlistment decided not to keep it up--and I don't blame them one bit.  The new GI bill makes it attractive to leave, the new regulations make it unattractive to stay.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:36:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Infantry26:snip[span style='font-weight: bold;']
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Damn.  Sounds retarded.  Thanks for the info., though.


I still say, cut cut cut. They will learn to be frugal and effective.  


No more navy guys spending 3x on dock repairs for kickback bribes. Etc.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:39:24 PM EDT
WTF...last I knew we had some 33 or so BCTs?  
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:41:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Being active duty I will say it's probably more than that but the average soldier is most definitely not prepared for combat. We have more eo/sexual harassment classes than anything and ranges are hard to come by nowadays. A lot of soldiers are getting out because they are tired of the political bs everyday and walking around on eggshells for fear they will offend someone. I have been in for 5 years now and I have most certainly seen the army change from the short time I've been in and not for the good.
View Quote


Everyone always says that "back in their day" they could get away with so much more.  I used to think it was bullshit but the more time I spent in the army (2005-2009) I realized that it was completely true.  I don't buy any of that stress card bullshit but the sheer number of sexual harassment classes and suicide prevention made you want to kick the instructor in the cunt and hang yourself.

What was a prank or part of the army, morale building, etc in 2005 was grounds for a court martial in 2009.

Hell you will get in FAR more, exponentially more trouble, for having one of your soldiers falsely accused of rape than you will for inadequately training or supporting a team of soldiers that were all killed or crippled in an ambush.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:43:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By army_eod:
WTF...last I knew we had some 33 or so BCTs?  
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No money for training, apparently.

Brigades deployed right now aren't counted in the general's statement.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:44:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Well, I hope those are the two that are in Afghanistan.



ETA:


So who's doing the fighting?  We are still in a "war" over there, right?
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Well, I hope those are the two that are in Afghanistan.



ETA:

That doesn't count brigades in Afghanistan, but Odierno noted those aren't really combat-ready either, since they're deployed for "training and advising only."


So who's doing the fighting?  We are still in a "war" over there, right?


A war?   With the most peaceful president ever sitting at the helm?   I mean if we were at war I'm sure the MSM would be covering it and talking about how evil O is just like Bush.  Protests in front of the WH every day.   Oh wait........

Not one dime  was kept from the FSA.    Meanwhile the real Army gets this.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:45:27 PM EDT
No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no inspection ready unit passed combat.
You want dog and pony shows? Or do you want guys who don't give a shit about being dirty or nasty for weeks/months on end?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:51:14 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By NUcadet07:


How do they determine if a BCT is combat ready?
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I assume they are in the "ready" phase of ARFORGEN.

 



2 plus 2 deployed is not a lot out of 30 or whatever
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:53:44 PM EDT
OK..it sucks.  But I give him credit for telling it like it is.  Will BHO fire him now?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:55:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Not Intel here, 88M.
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Snide comment withheld.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 2:57:15 PM EDT
Well, we need an Obama Army and that will consist of DHS.  Regular military is filled with war mongering Right Wingers and needs to be contained.

Link Posted: 10/22/2013 3:01:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By glockster:


Snide comment withheld.
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Originally Posted By glockster:
Originally Posted By Mvizzle:
Not Intel here, 88M.


Snide comment withheld.


Why? As an 88m he's done 10x the actual work of anyone in INSCOM
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 3:01:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.
View Quote

Not really. This is budget issues plain and simple. The Army has to fund the war in Afghanistan with increasingly small amounts of OCO money. Meanwhile, they have to bring down their force structure, while not being able to draw down fast enough to match their new budget.

The Army, of course, can't offset those costs by cutting a lot of acquisition programs for two reasons. They don't have a lot of money in that pot, and they lack the reprogramming authority.

I guess maybe you're right. Congress should be fired. They're the ones putting the Army in this fix.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 3:23:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HSDM:
No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no inspection ready unit passed combat.
You want dog and pony shows? Or do you want guys who don't give a shit about being dirty or nasty for weeks/months on end?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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That statement does not hold up under real scrutiny. Depends on what inspection it is.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:20:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dport:

Not really. This is budget issues plain and simple. The Army has to fund the war in Afghanistan with increasingly small amounts of OCO money. Meanwhile, they have to bring down their force structure, while not being able to draw down fast enough to match their new budget.

The Army, of course, can't offset those costs by cutting a lot of acquisition programs for two reasons. They don't have a lot of money in that pot, and they lack the reprogramming authority.

I guess maybe you're right. Congress should be fired. They're the ones putting the Army in this fix.
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Originally Posted By dport:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.

Not really. This is budget issues plain and simple. The Army has to fund the war in Afghanistan with increasingly small amounts of OCO money. Meanwhile, they have to bring down their force structure, while not being able to draw down fast enough to match their new budget.

The Army, of course, can't offset those costs by cutting a lot of acquisition programs for two reasons. They don't have a lot of money in that pot, and they lack the reprogramming authority.

I guess maybe you're right. Congress should be fired. They're the ones putting the Army in this fix.


The massive amount of new shit (certification schools, tdy training, etc) that the army has decided is "mandatory for readiness" over the last ten years is the problem. A unit has to be over strength, has to have two SHARPP reps per company, battalion has to have master fitness programs, everyone has to have resiliency and stress training up to date, everyone has to be yearly qualified in "online sere school" (lol)

The army put itself into the same fix that congress did  running off of a blank check and forgetting how to function without it.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:24:32 PM EDT
I am still in, just over 20 years now, It has changed since I got in in the early 90s and has changed since I deployed the first time, the last time, to now.  I have been to the range once since my last deployment.  We have SHARP (sexual harassment) , EO (equal opportunity), Suicide Prevention, ASAP (substance abuse) training at least twice a quarter, probably more.  Often times it is the same exact training we got 2 classes before.  If I were not already in the process of retiring, I would and if I was not well over the line of no return I would get out prior to retirement.  The economy has kept a lot of people in.  But as stated, new guidelines, politics, lack of training are causing people to leave every day.

One of our biggest problems is losing a lot of the GOOD middle leadership...Captains/Majors and SSG-1SGs.  Most of these people are around 8-12 years in finishing their commitments and re-enlistments and they say "fuck it" when they see what people of their caliber make on the outside, the toxic higher leadership contributes a good bit too.  Yeah I have had good battalion and brigade commanders, but I have seen and had some really bad ones too.  My first deployment to Iraq and our entire officer corps in our BN had our resignation letters written, including the XO.  Luckily we had a good BDE CDR and he fired the BC about halfway through.  My next BDE CDR was awesome as a COL and after he got promoted to 1 star, several of us were asked to go with him when he went to Iraq the next year so we did...very sad when he retired...in his prime.

The culture of the Army is changing in some ways good, but in many ways not so good.  We are paying the piper now for what was done from 2002-to present in how we treated people, the people we took in to fill the gaps (that we should not have), the people we did not get rid of (that we should have), the people who we DID get rid of/didn't retain that we should have kept, the people promoted who shouldn't have been (either unready or unfit) etc etc etc.

Funding is of course an issue, but it is far from the real issue.


Just my take on it, I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing.  
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:29:31 PM EDT
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about reenlisting.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:32:18 PM EDT
Something smells about this. Why would they release this highly-classified information?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:35:36 PM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mvizzle:


Being active duty I will say it's probably more than that but the average soldier is most definitely not prepared for combat. We have more eo/sexual harassment classes than anything and ranges are hard to come by nowadays. A lot of soldiers are getting out because they are tired of the political bs everyday and walking around on eggshells for fear they will offend someone. I have been in for 5 years now and I have most certainly seen the army change from the short time I've been in and not for the good.
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I'll bet that outside of combat arms (and even some units in it) you will have far more soldiers that can teach a class on 'Perceptions' than even know what Battle Drill 2 even is.



 
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:38:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By HeartsAndMinds:
(SNIP)

One of our biggest problems is losing a lot of the GOOD middle leadership...Captains/Majors and SSG-1SGs.  Most of these people are around 8-12 years in finishing their commitments and re-enlistments and they say "fuck it" when they see what people of their caliber make on the outside, the toxic higher leadership contributes a good bit too.  Yeah I have had good battalion and brigade commanders, but I have seen and had some really bad ones too.  (SNIP)

The culture of the Army is changing in some ways good, but in many ways not so good.  We are paying the piper now for what was done from 2002-to present in how we treated people, the people we took in to fill the gaps (that we should not have), the people we did not get rid of (that we should have), the people who we DID get rid of/didn't retain that we should have kept, the people promoted who shouldn't have been (either unready or unfit) etc etc etc.
(SNIP)
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I rarely post in non-technical threads. I think you are spot on in your assessment, I see it every day.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/22/2013 6:46:36 PM EDT by CJ7365]
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:


The massive amount of new shit (certification schools, tdy training, etc) that the army has decided is "mandatory for readiness" over the last ten years is the problem. A unit has to be over strength, has to have two SHARPP reps per company, battalion has to have master fitness programs, everyone has to have resiliency and stress training up to date, everyone has to be yearly qualified in "online sere school" (lol)


The army put itself into the same fix that congress did  running off of a blank check and forgetting how to function without it.
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Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Originally Posted By dport:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.

Not really. This is budget issues plain and simple. The Army has to fund the war in Afghanistan with increasingly small amounts of OCO money. Meanwhile, they have to bring down their force structure, while not being able to draw down fast enough to match their new budget.

The Army, of course, can't offset those costs by cutting a lot of acquisition programs for two reasons. They don't have a lot of money in that pot, and they lack the reprogramming authority.

I guess maybe you're right. Congress should be fired. They're the ones putting the Army in this fix.


The massive amount of new shit (certification schools, tdy training, etc) that the army has decided is "mandatory for readiness" over the last ten years is the problem. A unit has to be over strength, has to have two SHARPP reps per company, battalion has to have master fitness programs, everyone has to have resiliency and stress training up to date, everyone has to be yearly qualified in "online sere school" (lol)


The army put itself into the same fix that congress did  running off of a blank check and forgetting how to function without it.



Back to the "Garrison Army"
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:48:31 PM EDT
It's fine...

The Wolverines have us covered.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:56:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By CJ7365:



Back to the "Garrison Army"
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Originally Posted By CJ7365:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Originally Posted By dport:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.

Not really. This is budget issues plain and simple. The Army has to fund the war in Afghanistan with increasingly small amounts of OCO money. Meanwhile, they have to bring down their force structure, while not being able to draw down fast enough to match their new budget.

The Army, of course, can't offset those costs by cutting a lot of acquisition programs for two reasons. They don't have a lot of money in that pot, and they lack the reprogramming authority.

I guess maybe you're right. Congress should be fired. They're the ones putting the Army in this fix.


The massive amount of new shit (certification schools, tdy training, etc) that the army has decided is "mandatory for readiness" over the last ten years is the problem. A unit has to be over strength, has to have two SHARPP reps per company, battalion has to have master fitness programs, everyone has to have resiliency and stress training up to date, everyone has to be yearly qualified in "online sere school" (lol)


The army put itself into the same fix that congress did  running off of a blank check and forgetting how to function without it.



Back to the "Garrison Army"


Yep it's like Clinton but worse, were losing all of our warriors and we will lose all that knowledge
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 6:57:49 PM EDT
The direction in which the Army is going has been pretty obvious for the last few years. I don't regret my decision to join the Army, but I don't regret my decision to leave, either.

Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:03:11 PM EDT
I thought this has been a big problem for awhile? Word around the camp fire in the early and mid 2000s was, my unit, was never technically "combat ready". Despite constantly rotating units in and out of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:06:12 PM EDT
From the way that things seem to be going and as sad as it is, it's their loss our gain.  

Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:07:13 PM EDT
FEMA has their brigades "combat" ready.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:07:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Well, I hope those are the two that are in Afghanistan.



ETA:


So who's doing the fighting?  We are still in a "war" over there, right?
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Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Well, I hope those are the two that are in Afghanistan.



ETA:

That doesn't count brigades in Afghanistan, but Odierno noted those aren't really combat-ready either, since they're deployed for "training and advising only."


So who's doing the fighting?  We are still in a "war" over there, right?



We barely have two brigades, and our troops in a war zone aren't prepared for active combat.

Jesus Christ, we're begging to be attacked abroad.


And while this nightmare scenario is happening Obama continues to purge the military leadership.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:08:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
The direction in which the Army is going has been pretty obvious for the last few years. I don't regret my decision to join the Army, but I don't regret my decision to leave, either.

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Well said.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:08:40 PM EDT
Dupe.
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:12:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ourichie:

^ this

8,000 - 10,000 troops standing between us and attack... Heads should roll
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Originally Posted By ourichie:
Originally Posted By USMCTanker:
Sounds like someone needs to be fucking fired.

^ this

8,000 - 10,000 troops standing between us and attack... Heads should roll



Add the USMC and SOCOM and you likely double or triple that number.  I'd be more worried if our air power was in trouble.

Doesn't SOCOM get sent in first followed by the Marines more or less before the Army ever leaves CONUS?
Link Posted: 10/22/2013 7:14:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fosters:
All part of the plan....meanwhile dhs is gearing up and reaching full oppression status
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I thought DHS has no credible manpower of its own outside of Local/State LE and Coast Guard?
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