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Posted: 11/19/2007 2:24:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2007 2:27:45 AM EDT by FDC]
LMAO, but I'll believe it when I see it.

IMO, there are many people out there begging to be deployed, but the Army keeps shuffling them around.


Haven’t gone to war? You’re about to

Army IDs 37,000 soldiers who have not gone to war — and could spell relief for the heavily deployedBy Gina Cavallaro - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Nov 18, 2007 8:52:44 EST

Soldiers who haven’t been downrange yet had better hone their warrior skills because the Army wants to see more combat patches in the ranks.

The Army has targeted 37,000 active-duty soldiers who have yet to serve a combat tour after more than six years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Over that period, 59.4 percent of some 515,000 active-duty soldiers have deployed to the Central Command area of operations at least once, according to data compiled by Human Resources Command. Many of them have served three or four tours — some even more.

Another 33.4 percent have not served a war tour but are assigned to units with pending deployments; are not in deployable status because they are at basic training, school or other Army training; have medical or legal issues that keep them out of rotation; are serving as instructors, recruiters or drill sergeants; or are in transit or otherwise on hold.

But 7.2 percent, roughly 37,000 active-duty soldiers, have been identified by HRC as available for deployment and are facing transfer to operational units.

Soldiers charged with combing through the rolls at HRC indicated that many troops yet to deploy have been ready and willing to go, and many have volunteered but haven’t had the opportunity. But the assignments officers also acknowledged that some homesteading and deployment-ducking have taken place.

“Certainly in a population of 37,000 you’ll have soldiers who say, ‘I’ll avoid this at any cost,’” said Col. Louis Henkel, deputy director of the Enlisted Personnel Management Directorate at HRC.

“Does that mean the Army will give them cover? No,” Henkel said.

But while some soldiers may not move toward the sound of the guns, Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Dick Cody says he thinks they are in the minority.

“This far into the war, I think that is more of a perception than a reality,” Cody said, explaining that it has taken this long to get every soldier an opportunity to go downrange while simultaneously creating cohesive leadership in deploying units and in units that are being stood up.

“I think you could go to any post, camp or station and you could probably find someone who’s been in the Army four years and hasn’t deployed and that would be the exception, not the rule. Because when you look into it, that may be the best trainer for our medics down at [Brooke Army Medical Center],” Cody offered as an example. HRC officials were unable to provide a breakdown by major command of soldiers being considered for first-time deployments.

Of the Armywide 7.2 percent being looked at for first deployments, the highest number without combat tours, 27.1 percent, work in health services, a field in which the need for specialists on the home front makes rotations less frequent.

The next largest group at 7.1 percent is considerably smaller and comprises soldiers who work in operations support in branches and career management fields that include space operations, foreign area officers, nuclear and counterproliferation, signal, telecommunication systems engineering, strategic plans and policy, simulation operations and information systems management.

Soldiers who work in transportation, ordnance quartermaster, logistics, adjutant general, finance, human resources and acquisition make up 4.1 percent of the undeployed.

And the smallest group of undeployed soldiers, 3.5 percent, is in the maneuver, fires and effects category, which includes all combat-arms specialties, special operations and public affairs.

Many of these targeted soldiers work in places such as the Pentagon, Installation Management Command, HRC and other units in the Military District of Washington.

The long haul
Army leaders long have described what they believe will be persistent global conflict in which the Army will continue to play a major role.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have continued longer than projected, requiring active-duty troops to serve back-to-back deployments and reservists to serve as operational forces.

The relentless operations tempo has been the source of wide dissatisfaction inside the ranks and among family members, creating a stiff and ongoing challenge to recruiting and retaining troops.

To help ease the deployment strain, the Army has accelerated by two years, to 2010, its goal of growing active-duty end strength to 547,000, from the current 519,000. Also, the service is putting more money into addressing family support issues and looking for places where soldiers who are tired from relentless rotations can sit the game out for a while.

The Marine Corps embarked on a similar campaign close to a year ago with a Corps-wide message from the commandant ordering all hands into the fight and specifically targeting 66,000 leathernecks who had not deployed.

the Army has not issued any such message. Rather, the hunt for fresh warriors has evolved as repeat deployments have become standard for much of the force and others have been reassigned to non-deploying billets before it was obvious the operations tempo was not going to slacken any time soon.

“Everybody wants to go downrange and be part of this because they know the importance of this war,” Cody said, adding, “At the same time, there’s a demand to make sure we have the right noncommissioned officer leaders and officer leaders at our training bases that are training up these young men and women to go to these units.”

The need to get combat vets into training bases forced HRC to look deeper into the ranks for soldiers who could deploy and have not.

To help rotate people into those jobs, Gen. William S. Wallace, commander of Training and Doctrine Command, said he has asked the Army G-1, the TRADOC command sergeant major and HRC to see “where we can accept two-year assignments in TRADOC and to codify those assignments to the point where we can start moving people in and out without doing damage to our organizational structure in the process.”

“I don’t want to create so much turbulence in TRADOC that it becomes inefficient in terms of moving people around, but there is great value, in my judgment, in having combat veterans wearing the TRADOC patch because they bring credibility and they bring life, they bring energy into the organization,” he said in a recent interview.

Wallace said he doesn’t expect it to be a blanket policy across the command because of the turbulence it could cause in training the force.

But, where it makes sense, he said, he’d “like to move people in and out of TRADOC in a more rapid fashion because I need the combat experience, and I think our combat veterans in some cases need a break.”

Henkel said people who have been in TRADOC billets for six years will “be the first in the queue.”

Some targeted TRADOC positions, Cody noted, won’t be able to move into operational units until replacements whose deployments have been pushed to 15 months can return and get to the assignment.

“Obviously when job one is to fill fully trained, best-led units into combat, with 20 brigades in Iraq, and three brigades in Afghanistan plus another 4,500 senior leaders on military training teams, just that demand alone has driven us to make sure that we’re balancing this force in terms of getting the right people in the right positions so we have trained and ready forces in this fight,” Cody said.


www.armytimes.com/news/2007/11/army_allfight_071118p/
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 2:28:00 AM EDT
It's a shame they didnt start this before July and Stop Loss my ass.


I must've been the only motherfucker in the Infantry to never leave the country.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 2:35:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Current-Resident:

I must've been the only motherfucker in the Infantry to never leave the country.


Certainly not the only one. There are a few down here that haven't done anything recent, and it's not from lack of individual effort either.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 6:34:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 9:08:11 AM EDT
Hey we will see how they really do this. Hell I have been begging for a TRADOC position comeing off this last deployment as me and alot of other guys that have been here two or three and four times already need a fucking break. I can not get any help what so ever trying to get one.

We have so many people that came up with so many damn reasons why they could not deploy that we came over here way under strength and then get extended for the 15 months and then they wonder why we are wore the fuck out and no one is reenlisting.

Whwen we get back we will be reflagged under 1AD and then start training again. For what well we will be right back over at the end if next year. Yeah we have alreadty been told and informend that they are going to keep the brigade at 70% when we get back.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 9:16:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
Hey we will see how they really do this.

I bet you see a bunch of never been deployed folks go to MITTs. To me, that seems the easiest way to get an inividual into the fight.



Hell I have been begging for a TRADOC position comeing off this last deployment as me and alot of other guys that have been here two or three and four times already need a fucking break.


Hint, JRTC is probably short your MOS if you're an SSG or above. I'm sure NTC and CMTC/JMRC are the same way. Not to mention that JRTC just had a crapload of SFCs go to the local 10th MTN BCT to be PSGs, and another crapload just made the MSG list that gets released Tuesday the 20th.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 10:47:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
Hey we will see how they really do this.

I bet you see a bunch of never been deployed folks go to MITTs. To me, that seems the easiest way to get an inividual into the fight.



Hell I have been begging for a TRADOC position comeing off this last deployment as me and alot of other guys that have been here two or three and four times already need a fucking break.


Hint, JRTC is probably short your MOS if you're an SSG or above. I'm sure NTC and CMTC/JMRC are the same way. Not to mention that JRTC just had a crapload of SFCs go to the local 10th MTN BCT to be PSGs, and another crapload just made the MSG list that gets released Tuesday the 20th.


You know since you said that about the MTT's I got to thinking and you are right. I have talked to alot of the SSG's up to COL's and only a few of them have been over here before. The rest of them are here on thier first deployment. Now I really understand why alot of them are so fucked up as senior NCO's and Officer's.

I wish I was still a SSG but I got fucked over on that one when we still had the conditional promotions and then when I was promotaible I lost that due to being medically reclassed. The COC I have been under since 05 have done nothing but fuck me and good NCO's out of going to the board. We have talked to CSM and he told us he can not help and we even went higher and was told that we are just SOL.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 1:13:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
Hey we will see how they really do this.

I bet you see a bunch of never been deployed folks go to MITTs. To me, that seems the easiest way to get an inividual into the fight.



Hell I have been begging for a TRADOC position comeing off this last deployment as me and alot of other guys that have been here two or three and four times already need a fucking break.


Hint, JRTC is probably short your MOS if you're an SSG or above. I'm sure NTC and CMTC/JMRC are the same way. Not to mention that JRTC just had a crapload of SFCs go to the local 10th MTN BCT to be PSGs, and another crapload just made the MSG list that gets released Tuesday the 20th.


You know since you said that about the MTT's I got to thinking and you are right. I have talked to alot of the SSG's up to COL's and only a few of them have been over here before. The rest of them are here on thier first deployment. Now I really understand why alot of them are so fucked up as senior NCO's and Officer's.



those damn MTTs are a friggin joke. they are the blind leading the blind.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 1:40:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By daemon734:

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
Hey we will see how they really do this.

I bet you see a bunch of never been deployed folks go to MITTs. To me, that seems the easiest way to get an inividual into the fight.



Hell I have been begging for a TRADOC position comeing off this last deployment as me and alot of other guys that have been here two or three and four times already need a fucking break.


Hint, JRTC is probably short your MOS if you're an SSG or above. I'm sure NTC and CMTC/JMRC are the same way. Not to mention that JRTC just had a crapload of SFCs go to the local 10th MTN BCT to be PSGs, and another crapload just made the MSG list that gets released Tuesday the 20th.


You know since you said that about the MTT's I got to thinking and you are right. I have talked to alot of the SSG's up to COL's and only a few of them have been over here before. The rest of them are here on thier first deployment. Now I really understand why alot of them are so fucked up as senior NCO's and Officer's.



those damn MTTs are a friggin joke. they are the blind leading the blind.


I've heard yes and no on that. I personally know 10+ 13Fs, 13Zs, and 13As out there now on MITTs/ETTs in Iraq/A'stan. To a man they are shit hot, and it's not the first trip for any of them.

However, I have heard(no personal experience) the horror stories of the ancient "soldiers" from obscure MOSs that get put on MITTs. Where they came from, or what they used to do in the Army is a mystery. They are truly, as you said "the blind leading the blind".
I guess it's a mixed bag, but I certainly see where you're coming from.


I guess my thought process for them maybe going to MITTs is due to an individual vs unit fill into a team. It is easy to plug x MOS into a hole in a MITT. I just feel sorry for the studs, that get on the same team.

It's either that or have the senior never deployed guys be the LNO to the LNO to the LNO to the chow hall ID checking cell?

Link Posted: 11/19/2007 7:39:52 PM EDT
Join the Marines.
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 7:40:45 PM EDT
I know a SHITLOAD of homesteaders down here at Camp Shelby that I would be ever so glad to see go on their first deployment. This place is full of complaining shitbirds who just don't realize how good they have it here.

I hope the Army scoops these fuckers up in droves! I'd be more than willing to deploy with them just so I can laugh at their misery!
Link Posted: 11/19/2007 9:55:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2007 6:01:58 AM EDT by Ghost-1]
Yes dont get me wrong there are some shit hot guys on the MTT/LTT's and alot ofthem have been here before like myself. You can pretty much tell who has and has not been deployed over here yet or never deployed before.

What kills me is the NCO's from E-5 to E-9 that have spent thier whole time in the army and have never deployed any where. They have just did the regular PCS move and shit like that and always find some damn reason to get out of going anywhere.

We have a bunch of them that finally got caught and got deployed with us. You can tell they are not happy and they are doing nothing but fucking everything up and fucking over lower ranking NCO's like me. They are also fucking over soldiers that are doing thier jobs well and stuff.

I sit back and look around and see what is going on and how the army has really fucked up by letting these guys get promotated and the bull shit they pull and no one does anything about it.

Hell IG is such a fucking joke when you go to them about anything as they are in the commanders pocket at both company level and squadron or battalion level. When you try to do the right thing and take care of soldiers or stand up for the soldier you are looked at as a threat and not a team player and they go out of thier way to fuck with you and fuck you over.

My soldiers have came to me and told me how the commander and 1SG bad mouthed me and talked about me like I am the most fucked up NCO in the company when I am not around. They do this in front of my soldiers and shit. When my soldiers try to stand up for me they get treated like shit. When I go around the company they all act like everything iks good to go and smile and try to joke with me. I just look at them and shake my head and just think to myself yeah Karma is a motherfucker and what goes around comes around and they will get what the deserve sooner or later.

They wonder why I laugh when the retention guy comes around to talk to me. I finally told him face to face one day that he tries to talk to me agian about reenlistment that I will just put a ass whooping on him.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 3:46:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2007 3:47:48 AM EDT by daemon734]
my main problem with MTT's (besides the fact that they do nothing to assist in any way towards their own support on our outpost and they bitch constantly) is that they seem to have their mouths permanently stitched on to iraqi cock.

ive seen two seperate teams raise hell and swear up and down that their iraqis are halo wearing superstuds even when their guilt is blatantly obvious over issues we bring up. one included my platoon almost being killed in an obvious setup where we all went black on ammo in order to make it out alive, the other was over the theft of sensitive items.

they seem to become so open minded towards the IA/IP/NP/ERF etc. that their brains fall out.

Link Posted: 11/20/2007 4:07:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.


I'm pretty sure you could find homesteading pogues in the Corps, and hardchargers that haven't deployed as well. Hell, there is a Recon Marine on this board that hasn't been and is stuck in an assignment where he won't go soon.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 4:28:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.


I'm pretty sure you could find homesteading pogues in the Corps, and hardchargers that haven't deployed as well. Hell, there is a Recon Marine on this board that hasn't been and is stuck in an assignment where he won't go soon.


Yes. I&I (unless with a deploying SMCR unit), Drill Field, Recruting Duty, HCMQ, MC district posts, med/dental holds, NROTC Marine Instructors & there may be a few more. Other than that I've never known a Marine in my business not to deploy or have to do an accompanied or unaccompanied tour forward deployed in Oki or mainside Japan. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't sound it does on the scale in the Army.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 4:53:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warpig8654:

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.


I'm pretty sure you could find homesteading pogues in the Corps, and hardchargers that haven't deployed as well. Hell, there is a Recon Marine on this board that hasn't been and is stuck in an assignment where he won't go soon.


Yes. I&I (unless with a deploying SMCR unit), Drill Field, Recruting Duty, HCMQ, MC district posts, med/dental holds, NROTC Marine Instructors & there may be a few more. Other than that I've never known a Marine in my business not to deploy or have to do an accompanied or unaccompanied tour forward deployed in Oki or mainside Japan. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it doesn't sound it does on the scale in the Army.


Probably because the Army has more places to hide then the Marine Corps. For example, the hospital, and many like it, mentioned in the article. Not all of them are hiding, as we have plenty of un-deployed Soldiers who are begging to get deployed. We have the same Soldiers stuck in training/admin assignments such as drill, recruiting, observer controller, DA, AC/RC advisers, etc.

The Army has a few dependent restricted places as well. They are not what the article is talking about.

I will say the percentage of active Marines that have deployed is higher than the percentage of active Army. Much of that can be chalked up to less support MOSs held by Marines.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 6:12:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By daemon734:
my main problem with MTT's (besides the fact that they do nothing to assist in any way towards their own support on our outpost and they bitch constantly) is that they seem to have their mouths permanently stitched on to iraqi cock.

ive seen two seperate teams raise hell and swear up and down that their iraqis are halo wearing superstuds even when their guilt is blatantly obvious over issues we bring up. one included my platoon almost being killed in an obvious setup where we all went black on ammo in order to make it out alive, the other was over the theft of sensitive items.

they seem to become so open minded towards the IA/IP/NP/ERF etc. that their brains fall out.



Oh trust me I know. hell me and the mechanics that are withese guys are always having to work on thier shit as when you take and officer or senior NCO and tell them they need to PMCs thier truck they look at you like you are stupid. Then when we or they roll out and break down because they did not do a PMCS and are stuck out in the middle of fucking no where then they blame you for not fixing thier truck.

My team wil not cozy up to or hold the IA/IP/NP/ERF's hand we train them and teach them the dos and dont's. If they do not want to learn and go out and get thier ass shot up then oh well we did are part.

We have went out with several IA units on different missions and some of them are pretty damn good and love to go out and find and kill the AIF. We have got into some good firefights right along with the IA and they took charge and killed all the bad guys.

The IP's are the ones I never trust we have had them set us up for IEDs and ambushes and shit. If it was up to me I would rather just run over an IP or shoot his ass on site as they are the ones that are lazy and can not be trusted.

Alot of the stuff that some of these MTT/LTT's do and put out is bullshit. The way alot of them act towards others is bullshit. My team does not really have anything to do with the other teams as they are fucked up and act like they can not do any wrong. They will learn the hard way.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 8:08:32 AM EDT
I wish they would do more with voluntary short tours. I would go every winter for 3 months
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 8:29:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 12:28:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 12:53:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2007 12:54:15 PM EDT by FDC]

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)

Aside from a belief that storming defended beaches remains a legitimate option, of course


The same mentality exists in the Army's airborne and air assault units. It's just another means of forced entry.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 1:10:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)

Aside from a belief that storming defended beaches remains a legitimate option, of course


The same mentality exists in the Army's airborne and air assault units. It's just another means of forced entry.

Air is 3D warfare, beach landings 2D.
Whole different ball game.
2D is for the short-bus riders.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 1:40:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:

Originally Posted By FDC:

The same mentality exists in the Army's airborne and air assault units. It's just another means of forced entry.

Air is 3D warfare, beach landings 2D.
Whole different ball game.
2D is for the short-bus riders.


If the boat goes up and down in the waves, is it then 3D?
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 1:46:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2007 1:49:17 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By FDC:

The Army has a few dependent restricted places as well. They are not what the article is talking about.



ORLY?

Korea...

AIP (or as we called it, the 'Avoid Iraq Program')...

'nuff said...

There is something WORNG with a guy who comes to Korea as an E-5 non-P, and leaves as an E-7 with PSG time done... Oh, no combat patch...

Or the guy who came as a new PFC, has never been anywhere else, has a wife & apartment over there, and was looking at the E-6 board when I left...

There was a sizable group of those in my last unit....

Korea is a great place to look for folks to deploy (Yes, I know that SOME units have deployed troops from Korea... But most have not).... They should get rid of AIP and keep everyone on a 1yr tour...
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 2:10:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FDC:

The Army has a few dependent restricted places as well. They are not what the article is talking about.



ORLY?

Korea...

AIP (or as we called it, the 'Avoid Iraq Program')...

'nuff said...



Not what I meant.

Warpig used Oki and Japan as an example of unaccompanied "deployed" Marines. I used Korea to say, yep-the Army has unaccompanied tours as well, but that is NOT "deployed" in the spirit of the article.

I've heard all about the "Avoid Iraq Program". Someone I work with, who has done multiple tours, got 2 blocked on his NCOER for calling someone on it.
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 7:42:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2007 7:43:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)

Aside from a belief that storming defended beaches remains a legitimate option, of course


Storming defended beaches had to be done back in the day with the tactics & equipment limitations available or we'd prolly be speaking German or Japanese right now. Just like with the times, means of insertion have changed, but amphibious ops is a huge part of what the Corps is all about. Remember, we are the men's department of the Navy.

The same mentality exists in the Army's airborne and air assault units. It's just another means of forced entry.


And we are really skilled at forced entries.
Link Posted: 11/24/2007 9:15:38 AM EDT
About time, to many people hiding out in TSD and other training units...Nearly every National Guardsmen I see has SSI..I go to Lewis and see lots of AD senior NCOs and Officers with none..WTF....
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 11:52:38 AM EDT
I'm not going to get hopeful on this. I've got 12 years...12 FUCKING YEARS ...with no deployments.

I've tried everything I can think of to get deployed, hell, I even posted a thread on here to see if anybody had any advice. No luck.

Knowing my luck, the Army will find some backwater post to send me to where I'll spend the remainder of the war in a "rear-D" job.


It just kills me that there is no way to volunteer to deploy. Oh well, my fucking curse I guess.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 12:24:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 12:40:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Current-Resident:

I must've been the only motherfucker in the Infantry to never leave the country.


Certainly not the only one. There are a few down here that haven't done anything recent, and it's not from lack of individual effort either.


Unfortunately . . . +1

I started the Pipeline right after 9/11 and didn't get to Group until April 2004. Then, since I was in Germany, most of us were prevented from playing in the Sandbox. Now, I'm back in school until at least 2010.
Link Posted: 11/25/2007 9:03:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)


They may be good at some things, but when it comes to logistics the USMC has a long, long way to go to even catch up with the Army.


Specific examples to go along with the rhetoric?


If you are talking about the long term logistics of being an occupation force you're right.

We aren't set up for that.

If you're talking about Expeditionary Logistics and coming to the fight with everything we need for 15, 30, or 90 days of self sustainment (depending upon the size of the MAGTF).

We do a pretty damn good job at that. (with the help of our Navy partners of course).
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 3:44:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 7:48:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 8:03:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By 0699TeufelHnd:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)


They may be good at some things, but when it comes to logistics the USMC has a long, long way to go to even catch up with the Army.


Specific examples to go along with the rhetoric?


If you are talking about the long term logistics of being an occupation force you're right.

We aren't set up for that.

If you're talking about Expeditionary Logistics and coming to the fight with everything we need for 15, 30, or 90 days of self sustainment (depending upon the size of the MAGTF).

We do a pretty damn good job at that. (with the help of our Navy partners of course).


Yep, anything past 90 days for the most part.

I watch 3 rotations come and go for 6-7 month tours in Afghanistan and they just could not sustain what the brought past the 3 month mark, and even by then they were in trouble.

One would think that they would learn lessons from the previous rotations, or even sit down and think "Hey, we know it will be at least 6 months, perhaps we should plan for this."

Just one example is vehicle maintenace and sustainment. The USMC mechanics I met were undertrained on the fundementals, there were not enough in the organization to sustain anything but a fast push fixing simple stuff, they lack a strong emphasis on taking care of equipment for long term use, and did not seem to be able to use thier own system to get the repair parts they needed not bring or stock enough within the unit. The individual Marines I saw trying to scrape together enough parts to keep their vehicles going were outstanding and worked their ass off, but they were working within a culture that still had the mindset of "run it till it breaks, and the fight will likley be over by then".... that mindset is great for a 1 month fight... not so much for a 6-12 month fight.

The result? After 6 months when they rotated out the equipment was so worn out and cannabalized it had to be shipped out and the next rotation had to bring new stuff in.... whereas on the Army side we inherited equipment from the unit we replaced, and left it for our replacements, while doing 12 months tours in the same enviornment.

That is but one side, but among all the USMC leadership I worked with I pretty much saw a disdain for anything logistics, almost as is having to deal with it was beneath them.

If the USMC wants to take over all of the Afghan mission, they better head down to the Army and learn a thing or two about logistics in the sustained fight. They have been playing the long term role for several years now, and while they may have gotten better from when I worked with and near them, given the attitude I saw among the leadership I have my doubts. It is as much a cultural thing as anything....


You do realize that we have used the same model of logistic, send most of the logistic Marines to the same schools and in fact do, do a RIP of gear in theater don't you? The Marines Corps has done 1 gear rotation since 2003, since that time we have gone through several more rotations of personnel than the army because of having a 7 month vice year rotation, however we haven't done wholesale swapping out of gear. Our big deficiency in logistics is we don't don't have enough of the overhead of people and organization who do nothing but logistics to support the log effort. It was decided long ago that the Marines Corps would concentrate on the 90 day and less fight. The 90 day fight is a MEF, our largest MAGTF's fight. Because of that we have a much higher tooth to tale ratio than the other forces, it was probably a bit of a mistake to put more people into combat ams, but that decision was made long before any of us were born.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 8:20:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 10:17:58 AM EDT
The Marine Corps has used this same organizational model to fight our longest war so far, it may not be preferred, but it actually the model that transformation would have all the services go to.

The problem in Iraq is that, an infantry battalion was never meant to have so many vehicles, so it maintenance platoon was the size required to maintain the 50 odd vehicles it had on its peace time TO/E. Now, with 2-3 times the number of vehicles, you quickly swamp the platoon of maintainers. This problem just compounds as you move up the chain, regiments now have more vehicles than the division had in peace time, and the whole of the MEF quickly has outstretched what the MEF could maintain based on peace time staffing.

I fully agree the army is much better at the maintenance and logistics game than we are, however your service chief has also said your gear is warn out and that maintenance up keep is out stripping the service's capability.
Link Posted: 11/26/2007 10:24:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FDC:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By FDC:

The Army has a few dependent restricted places as well. They are not what the article is talking about.



ORLY?

Korea...

AIP (or as we called it, the 'Avoid Iraq Program')...

'nuff said...



Not what I meant.

Warpig used Oki and Japan as an example of unaccompanied "deployed" Marines. I used Korea to say, yep-the Army has unaccompanied tours as well, but that is NOT "deployed" in the spirit of the article.

I've heard all about the "Avoid Iraq Program". Someone I work with, who has done multiple tours, got 2 blocked on his NCOER for calling someone on it.


Ahh...

Misunderstanding...

Gotcha...

Link Posted: 11/26/2007 11:15:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By R0N:


You do realize that we have used the same model of logistic, send most of the logistic Marines to the same schools and in fact do, do a RIP of gear in theater don't you? The Marines Corps has done 1 gear rotation since 2003, since that time we have gone through several more rotations of personnel than the army because of having a 7 month vice year rotation, however we haven't done wholesale swapping out of gear. Our big deficiency in logistics is we don't don't have enough of the overhead of people and organization who do nothing but logistics to support the log effort. It was decided long ago that the Marines Corps would concentrate on the 90 day and less fight. The 90 day fight is a MEF, our largest MAGTF's fight. Because of that we have a much higher tooth to tale ratio than the other forces, it was probably a bit of a mistake to put more people into combat ams, but that decision was made long before any of us were born.


The Marines may study the same logistic models, but the leadership and culture do not place the emphasis on it they should.

It is not just tooth to tale... it its midset and culture as well. The fight 6 month fights like a series of 90 day fights.

The rotations I saw may not have rotated 100% of thier equipment, but they did rotate a high percentage. They pretty much had no choice, they had run it into the ground with an inadequate maintenance program and parts supply, and that is even after my guys had provided them a good quantity of parts that they should have been able to get, but for whatever failure could not.

The USMC needs a cultural shift, from the top down, before they can sustain a long fight as well as they should be



The Corps is expeditionary in nature, thus the reason for the MEF concept of sustainment of beans, bullets & bandaids for 90 days. We come in & fight to eventually turn over the fight to larger forces. It doesn't always more often than not work that way. We are not the Army. We aren't trying to be the Army. We are used to doing more with less & have the smallest budget. As long as the gear we use is serviceable & can be maintained, we will use it until it needs to be replaced. Having completed more deployments than I can count, I will say we do a pretty darn good job with what we have until gear needs to be surveyed.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 3:10:53 AM EDT

Army prioritizing 37,000 GIs for first combat tours

ARLINGTON, Va. — The Army is prioritizing 37,000 soldiers for assignment to units heading downrange after a records review showed that four in 10 on active duty have never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Many of the 40.6 percent of soldiers who have not gone downrange have valid reasons: They are in boot camp, assigned to units that are scheduled to Iraq or Afghanistan, or are not eligible to deploy.

But after scrutinizing Army personnel records, Human Resources Command officials in Alexandria, Va., have identified 37,000 soldiers who have yet to deploy and have no reason not to serve in combat.

Personnel officials “will prioritize these soldiers for assignment” to combat zones, Col. Louis Henkel, deputy director of the Enlisted Personnel Management Directorate at HRC, said in a Tuesday e-mail to a Stars and Stripes query.

Those orders might be for a soldier to report to a new brigade combat team or other unit that is deploying to combat zones, as an individual augmentee to fill an empty slot somewhere in a unit already deployed or for a military transition team, which advise and mentor members of the Afghan or Iraq military or police forces, Henkel said.

With no immediate end in sight to the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan and multiple tours becoming the norm in many units, personnel officials at HRC decided to determine which active-duty troops have yet to go downrange, and why.

Henkel would not say whether any of the 37,000 soldiers who have never deployed might have purposely avoided combat.

Instead, he said, the 7.2 percent of soldiers who have never deployed “are soldiers who have not been afforded the opportunity to deploy.”

Nor would Henkle quantify the number of soldiers among the 37,000 who may have volunteered to deploy but were turned down.

“The number that have volunteered is not a factor,” Henkle said. “The important factor is providing the opportunity to all that have not deployed.”

Among the never-deployed troops, 27.1 percent work in health services.

Other areas where records indicate never-deployed soldiers tend to work are operations support, particularly in the fields of space operations, foreign area officers, nuclear and counter-proliferation, signal, telecommunication systems engineering, strategic plans and policy, simulation operations and information systems management.

In Iraq, a soldier from the Fort Stewart, Ga.-based 3rd Infantry Division’s 2nd Brigade, Spc. Christopher Boza-Berrios, told Stripes he hopes to see the soldiers who haven’t deployed in downrange locations soon.

“They need to pay their dues,” Boza-Berrios, a headquarters company, 26th Brigade Support Battalion troop serving a 15-month tour, said Wednesday.

Soldiers who have repeatedly deployed deserve some rest, said Sgt. Reginald Alston of Company A, 26th Brigade Support Battalion, who is serving his third tour.

“We want to be home with our family, too, instead of a year here and months back home.”

Stars and Stripes reporter Erik Slavin contributed to this story.

stripes.com/articleprint.asp?section=104&article=50594

More info on who hasn't deployed, and where some of them might get assigned.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 7:14:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/29/2007 7:15:32 AM EDT by FightingHellfish]
Quoted from Stars and Stripes:

"Among the never-deployed troops, 27.1 percent work in health services.

Other areas where records indicate never-deployed soldiers tend to work are operations support, particularly in the fields of space operations, foreign area officers, nuclear and counter-proliferation, signal, telecommunication systems engineering, strategic plans and policy, simulation operations and information systems management."


I remember all the times in Iraq when I was thinking about how much we could use a few more Master Sergeants and Lieutenant Colonels from space operations and and strategic planning....

A lot of those guys haven't deployed because there is no need for them in Iraq. And the IA deserves better than having these guys shoe horned into MTT teams teaching subjects the "instructors" don't know very well themselves.

Maybe we should look and see if some of the programs listed above have some fat to cut, or some functions that could be better and more cheaply handled by contractors.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 8:24:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By warpig8654:
Join the Marines.



The more military articles I read the more often it becomes clearer and clearer that the Marines always seems to be a step ahead (usually several) when it comes to doctrine (of any type; whether it be combat, logistics, etc.)


yeah I heard they came up with a cool idea to have a air assault unit, forerunners I tell you!
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 1:13:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Quoted from Stars and Stripes:

"Among the never-deployed troops, 27.1 percent work in health services.

Other areas where records indicate never-deployed soldiers tend to work are operations support, particularly in the fields of space operations, foreign area officers, nuclear and counter-proliferation, signal, telecommunication systems engineering, strategic plans and policy, simulation operations and information systems management."


I remember all the times in Iraq when I was thinking about how much we could use a few more Master Sergeants and Lieutenant Colonels from space operations and and strategic planning....

A lot of those guys haven't deployed because there is no need for them in Iraq. And the IA deserves better than having these guys shoe horned into MTT teams teaching subjects the "instructors" don't know very well themselves.

Maybe we should look and see if some of the programs listed above have some fat to cut, or some functions that could be better and more cheaply handled by contractors.


We could make them the new Chow Hall Nazis, which would free up plenty of E-5's through E-7's for filling up empty seats on convoys.
Link Posted: 12/3/2007 12:22:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By doubleclaw:

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Quoted from Stars and Stripes:

"Among the never-deployed troops, 27.1 percent work in health services.

Other areas where records indicate never-deployed soldiers tend to work are operations support, particularly in the fields of space operations, foreign area officers, nuclear and counter-proliferation, signal, telecommunication systems engineering, strategic plans and policy, simulation operations and information systems management."


I remember all the times in Iraq when I was thinking about how much we could use a few more Master Sergeants and Lieutenant Colonels from space operations and and strategic planning....

A lot of those guys haven't deployed because there is no need for them in Iraq. And the IA deserves better than having these guys shoe horned into MTT teams teaching subjects the "instructors" don't know very well themselves.

Maybe we should look and see if some of the programs listed above have some fat to cut, or some functions that could be better and more cheaply handled by contractors.


We could make them the new Chow Hall Nazis, which would free up plenty of E-5's through E-7's for filling up empty seats on convoys.




I could fill a seat on a convoy just fine, hell I'm an 88M. But instead I'm filling seats on convoys going to Hoenfels and Grafenwohr.

The next time you guys are downrange, just remember. There are THOUSANDS of Soldiers in Europe who are volunteering left and right to take your place....but the Army won't let them go.

Instead, we send the HHC from division and an STB with no vehicles.............yeah, they'll be kicking in lots of doors.

Link Posted: 12/3/2007 5:23:08 AM EDT
Leatherpuke... aren't you a HETT driver? Those HETT companies are the only Soldiers I ever met that are doing short rotations. I think they are based in Kuwait running operations in Iraq supporting units moving in and out.

I talked to some guys, from Knox IIRC,who had done like a 3 month tour, a 5 month tour, a 7 month tour, etc.


Link Posted: 12/5/2007 8:58:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Leatherpuke... aren't you a HETT driver? Those HETT companies are the only Soldiers I ever met that are doing short rotations. I think they are based in Kuwait running operations in Iraq supporting units moving in and out.

I talked to some guys, from Knox IIRC,who had done like a 3 month tour, a 5 month tour, a 7 month tour, etc.




I WAS a HETT driver until today....we just turned over the last HETTs in Europe to the Germans. I guess it's cheaper to contract the Germans to drive tanks around then let Soldiers do it.


My Batallion is disbanding and we are getting re-assigned all over the place. Last I heard, I'm probably gonna end up going to Sweinfurt to man up the 21st TSC. It don't get much more pogue than that.
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