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Posted: 4/19/2017 8:59:36 AM EDT
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:01:26 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote
That's what the army calls it-"prone unsupported". Rifle is supported by the shooter's body and nothing else. Shooting prone over sandbags it would be "prone supported".
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:01:37 AM EDT
[#2]
What he is describing is the prone UNSUPPORTED position, per FM 3-22.9.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:01:54 AM EDT
[#3]
He is correct using army terminology.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:02:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

That's what the army calls it-"prone unsupported". Rifle is supported by the shooter's body and nothing else. Shooting prone over sandbags it would be "prone supported".
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:03:03 AM EDT
[#5]
Army individual weapons qual:
Prone supported (sandbag): 20 rounds.
Prone unsupported (only elbows touch the ground): 10 rounds.
Kneeling: 10 rounds.

Sorry OP, you are wrong. The Army calls it prone unsupported.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:03:54 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote


You qualify 20 rounds prone supported (with sandbag), 10 rounds prone unsupported (no sandbag), and 10 rounds kneeling.

So he is right.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:03:57 AM EDT
[#7]
There is supported prone and unsupported prone...
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:06:25 AM EDT
[#8]
To me, supported means you are using an object other than your body parts. If the ground is an object, then all positions are supported. Prone, standing offhand, sitting, and kneeling are the basic unsupported positions.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:07:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Oh god this did not go how OP thought it would. Haha.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:07:27 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Army individual weapons qual:
Prone supported (sandbag): 20 rounds.
Prone unsupported (only elbows touch the ground): 10 rounds.
Kneeling: 10 rounds.

Sorry OP, you are wrong. The Army calls it prone unsupported.
View Quote
What if the Army is wrong?


I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:09:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To me, supported means you are using an object other than your body parts. If the ground is an object, then all positions are supported. Prone, standing offhand, sitting, and kneeling are the basic unsupported positions.
View Quote
What I learned at a Small Arms Firing School was when you can use something hard to support yourself against something hard (bone on bone) then it is considered "supported."  Shooting offhand while standing is unsupported.

Apparently the Army teaches differently.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:10:24 AM EDT
[#12]
lol
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:10:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


What if the Army is wrong?
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Conspiracy-Keanu.jpg

I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


What if the Army is wrong?
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Conspiracy-Keanu.jpg

I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
You're right OP.  Everyone else has been wrong all these years.  Ill get on the phone with DA and have it fixed immediately.


Quoted:
To me, supported means you are using an object other than your body parts. If the ground is an object, then all positions are supported. Prone, standing offhand, sitting, and kneeling are the basic unsupported positions.
This is the correct answer.  Note the highlighted portion, the actual term for what you describe as "unsupported".




Quoted:

What I learned at a Small Arms Firing School
Well shit, ill get back on the phone with DA.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:11:21 AM EDT
[#14]
At what distance do they qualify at prone unsupported?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:12:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
To me, supported means you are using an object other than your body parts. If the ground is an object, then all positions are supported. Prone, standing offhand, sitting, and kneeling are the basic unsupported positions.
View Quote
Yeah, but you're not the Army.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:13:00 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yeah, but you're not the Army.
View Quote
But he is taking the Army's position on this.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:13:36 AM EDT
[#17]
OP, you should let the Army Chief of Staff know that he talks like a fag, and his shit's all retarded.

Here is his facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/USArmyChiefofStaff/
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:15:17 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote

According to what the Army teaches.....he's right
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:17:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
What are your thoughts?
View Quote

I think you're a know it all who doesn't know shit about Army rifle qual.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:17:13 AM EDT
[#20]
The Army is a profession of arms.

You went to a shooting school.

I think the Army wins this argument.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:18:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At what distance do they qualify at prone unsupported?
View Quote
50M thru 300M


OP, what is "unsupported" by your definition?  If standing, I have 2 legs on the ground, so that doesn't count.  Kneeling?  Hell, now I have 3 points of contact!
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:19:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What I learned at a Small Arms Firing School was when you can use something hard to support yourself against something hard (bone on bone) then it is considered "supported."  Shooting offhand while standing is unsupported.

Apparently the Army teaches differently.
View Quote
So if you are shooting standing offhand, you support the front of the rifle with your support hand....So is it standing supported or unsupported???

FYI....your friend is correct.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:20:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote

What did they call it in the branch where you served?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:21:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At what distance do they qualify at prone unsupported?
View Quote
From 50-300m.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:23:09 AM EDT
[#25]
I'm not questioning the Army's expertise on the subject, just the terminology that was used.

Now I understand the Army considers it unsupported because there is no sandbag, even though he is prone with his elbows on the ground.

He still shot a 24 from 25 yards away, so I will continue to bust his balls.  His defense is "but it was unsupported tho."
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:23:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:23:52 AM EDT
[#27]



Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:25:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What if the Army is wrong?
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Conspiracy-Keanu.jpg

I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
View Quote
What if you are?

Unsupported refers to not having to hold the front of the rifle up with your hand.

In Appleseed prone supported would be things like a bipod, bag or anything else you can rest the hand guard on so your hand doesn't have to hold it.

What you're calling unsupported is really referred to as standing off hand.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:25:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
What if the Army is wrong?
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Conspiracy-Keanu.jpg

I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Army individual weapons qual:
Prone supported (sandbag): 20 rounds.
Prone unsupported (only elbows touch the ground): 10 rounds.
Kneeling: 10 rounds.

Sorry OP, you are wrong. The Army calls it prone unsupported.
What if the Army is wrong?
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Conspiracy-Keanu.jpg

I thought unsupported referred to no support, which you clearly have while prone on your elbows.
Supported prone would be through the use of a rest or sling. 
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:25:30 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Army individual weapons qual:
Prone supported (sandbag): 20 rounds.
Prone unsupported (only elbows touch the ground): 10 rounds.
Kneeling: 10 rounds.

Sorry OP, you are wrong. The Army calls it prone unsupported.
View Quote
When did they add positions to qualification? When I was in(97-03) the only positions we shot were standing in a foxhole and prone unsupported.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:25:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not questioning the Army's expertise on the subject, just the terminology that was used.

Now I understand the Army considers it unsupported because there is no sandbag, even though he is prone with his elbows on the ground.

He still shot a 24 from 25 yards away, so I will continue to bust his balls.  His defense is "but it was unsupported tho."
View Quote
He shot 24 on the Alt-C? He is unqualified then.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:26:36 AM EDT
[#32]
If you're standing with the cool jacket and strapped is that offhand unsupported.?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:26:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What I learned at a Small Arms Firing School was when you can use something hard to support yourself against something hard (bone on bone) then it is considered "supported."  Shooting offhand while standing is unsupported.

Apparently the Army teaches differently.
View Quote
Do you have leg bones?

Do you stand on the ground?

You are therefore shooting standing supported.

science.

you're welcome.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:28:27 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote

He's using the correct terminology, and you are wrong.

Prone Supported is firing a rifle that is resting on a sandbag
Prone Unsupported is firing without the sandbag. Use of a sling is authorized.

Those are the proper names the Army refers to them by in doctrinal manuals.

The army does Alt-C rifle qualification in the Prone Supported, Prone Unsupported, and Kneeling positions

If you were to shoot in your position you describe, you would be shooting in the "Standing" position.... since you're standing
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:29:11 AM EDT
[#35]
According to OP every firing position is supported unless the shooter is floating in a zero gravity environment...
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:29:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

What if you are?

Unsupported refers to not having to hold the front of the rifle up with your hand.

In Appleseed probe supported would be things like a bipod, bag or anything else you can rest the hand guard on so your hand doesn't have to hold it.

What you're calling unsupported is really referred to as standing off hand.
View Quote
Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:29:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
When did they add positions to qualification? When I was in(97-03) the only positions we shot were standing in a foxhole and prone unsupported.
View Quote
Kneeling was added several years ago to make it more "real world", same as no more foxhole shooting.  (Although I think that was more cost related)
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:30:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
According to OP every firing position is supported unless the shooter is floating in a zero gravity environment...
View Quote
You might want to work on your reading comprehension.  Just a suggestion.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:30:53 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not questioning the Army's expertise on the subject, just the terminology that was used.

Now I understand the Army considers it unsupported because there is no sandbag, even though he is prone with his elbows on the ground.

He still shot a 24 from 25 yards away, so I will continue to bust his balls.  His defense is "but it was unsupported tho."
View Quote
So you're wrong, but you're going to continue to bust his balls?

Most reservists shoot 49 rounds every year, at most.

How about offer to take him out to shoot with you?  After all, you're a supergenius SAFS graduate, right?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:31:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm not questioning the Army's expertise on the subject, just the terminology that was used.

Now I understand the Army considers it unsupported because there is no sandbag, even though he is prone with his elbows on the ground.

He still shot a 24 from 25 yards away, so I will continue to bust his balls.  His defense is "but it was unsupported tho."
View Quote
You're not gonna save it OP, you are wrong and you stepped on your dick.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:33:12 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

So you're wrong, but you're going to continue to bust his balls?

Most reservists shoot 49 rounds every year, at most.

How about offer to take him out to shoot with you?  After all, you're a supergenius SAFS graduate, right?
View Quote
Nah, he would rather talk shit on the 'net about things he has no clue about.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:34:23 AM EDT
[#43]
In space maybe
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:36:03 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You might want to work on your reading comprehension.  Just a suggestion.
View Quote
Is your body not supported by the ground? Thus allowing you to support the rifle?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:37:22 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
At what distance do they qualify at prone unsupported?
View Quote
out to 300m
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:37:48 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

So you're wrong, but you're going to continue to bust his balls?

Most reservists shoot 49 rounds every year, at most.

How about offer to take him out to shoot with you?  After all, you're a supergenius SAFS graduate, right?
View Quote
This.

But no, you're just going to "bust his balls" about shit you don't know anything about.
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:39:31 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I think you're a know it all who doesn't know shit about Army rifle qual.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
What are your thoughts?

I think you're a know it all who doesn't know shit about Army rifle qual.
This. 

Who thinks he is a notch or two above a 'lowly' army reservist. 

Please, OP, enlighten  us with your mil experience and shooting anecdotes. 
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:39:59 AM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:41:35 AM EDT
[#49]
Since we're bitching about terminology, can we stop saying "off hand" unless we're talking about shooting with your off hand?
Link Posted: 4/19/2017 9:43:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
An Army guy I work with thinks shooting rifle prone (with elbows on the ground) is "unsupported" because he had to qualify without a sandbag.

I told him unsupported is when he's standing up, shooting offhand.  If he's prone he is not shooting unsupported, since his elbows are on the ground (hard object on hard surface).  He insists it is unsupported because he didn't use a sandbag.

This was during qualifications for Army Reserve.

What are your thoughts?
View Quote


He's kind of right although some clarification is needed. Like the Army, the AF uses "prone, supported" which is with a sandbag or other type of rest and "prone, unsupported" where the shooter supports the rifle only with their body. Our quals don't cover unsupported in the "traditional" sense either. The closest we come to that would be "overbarricade".

I think perhaps you've confused term offhand and unsupported, military terminology is bit different albeit specific on stuff like this.
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