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Posted: 12/13/2001 4:38:29 PM EDT
Anyone have any opinions or experience on installing steel or treated aluminum plates on your vehicle to get it more bullet resistant? More towards handgun calibers is what I'm looking at. I am looking at turning one of my very horsepower-full vehicles (suv or muscle car) into at least somewhat more safe. What kind of metal? What thickness? Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? Don't think I can spend the approximately $20,000 to $45,000 on doing it the professional way with all the trimmings. Thanks ahead of time for help.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:43:27 PM EDT
One word: "glass"
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:45:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 4:37:31 PM EDT by CockedandLocked]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:47:09 PM EDT
Exactly what type of armor? Steel, hardened aluminum? Aramid fibers? Anyone do any testing on regular Home Depot type materials?
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:48:07 PM EDT
My first choice would be titanium. 44% lighter than steel. A 4' X 8' .50 piece costs about $800. I'm not sure how thick it need to be to repel highpower handgun rounds. But you could test it out once you got some. Shouldnt take more than 2 or three layers. 4 doors-3'X2'=Aprox $1600, left over should cover back of backseat. Might try some low tech, like carpet in between layers of metal? Not much to cost, just depends on available space in door. Some other matereal you can think of would probally work too. Mabye some kind of epoxy? Depending on your budget you could try to find some Aramid fiber(Kevlar) cloth. It comes in rolls like fabric you add resin to and mold any shape you want. Not sure how much it costs. though.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:48:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:51:23 PM EDT
Yet it saves the lives of the unsuspecting that do get targeted by the random act of violence. Just like a gun, armor adds to the degrees of security.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:51:26 PM EDT
"ARMOKOM" Centre Khotkovo, Zavodskaya Str. 1, Moscow Region, RF Tel./Fax: (+7 095) 262 19 81 "ARMOCOM" develops and produces protective body armor using ballistic fabrics made of ultra-high-strength aramid fibers. Individual armor includes armor vests, helmets, protective gloves, fire-resistant clothes. ARMOCOM provides armor protection for vehicles. It also produces high-strength composite materials. ARMOCOM's annual production volume: 40,000 sets of clothes and armor protection for 60 vehicles.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:54:22 PM EDT
Better to spend your money on a good defensive driving course- maybe one for executive protection personnel. Any auto is a formidable defensive and offensive weapon if used correctly. But then, so is your brain if the proper software is installed.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:59:08 PM EDT
http://www.carb.com/kevlar.html About $20-$17 per yard, depending on quanity, not bad prices, cheaper than i thought.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 4:59:34 PM EDT
I constantly hear of the random shootings in Seattle where some punks just go up to a vehicle with people in it and shoot it up with their handguns. I think that's happened about 4 times this year that I know of (in Seattle). I see the armor as defense for attacks I cannot forsee. Not to charge some punks shooting at me. Only the engine block, axle, wheels, and other heavies are protective. EVERYTHING else is just concealment. Nothing more than a duck blind.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:12:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By holes45: I constantly hear of the random shootings in Seattle where some punks just go up to a vehicle with people in it and shoot it up with their handguns.
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RANDOM SHOOTINGS IN SEATTLE? Not gang related? Have any sources? I have a friend there who's never heard of this phenomenon! I'd like more info! DaMan
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:14:09 PM EDT
Trying to protect yourself from a very rarely occuring, random event is probably not worth the time, money or energy expended. Better to train to be a good observer, practice situational awareness, and work to perfect defense tactics appropriate for the scenarios you can anticipate. Remember, you gotta haul all that armor plate around in the off chance someone *might* randomly attack you. The gas pedal would probably be a better alternative if a bunch of those grumpy Seattleans decided to move to Ohio and start shooting random strangers in their cars. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:21:33 PM EDT
Don't forget to upgrade your suspension and brakes also. The additions you are talking about will change the handling characteristics of your vehicle immensely. Be careful with SUV's. They are top heavy as it is.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:29:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 5:22:48 PM EDT by WhomItMayConcern]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:42:13 PM EDT
The latest random shooting involved some out-of-state martial artists (there for a competition) that were driving around downtown Seattle and stopped in traffic. Then (I believe it was about 4) some twenty-something males opened fire with their handguns, killing 1 and injuring some of the other 4 (I think the numbers are right but not certain). Authorities say that there was no provocation but just some random act of violence. Kind of hard to avoid. There are others that were quite similar that had similar results. I'm in between Ohio and WA alot by the way. How often do we get in gunfights? Not very often. How often do we get shot up in our vehicles? Not very often. But we try to prepare for everything, right? Just trying to strengthen as many circles of defense I can.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:50:07 PM EDT
Here's a company that sells armor plate. [url]http://www.heflinsteel.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:50:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:55:50 PM EDT
I wholeheartedly agree with your reply on situational awareness. That and fighting mindset are the most important in survival. But when I cannot move quick enough to dodge a bullet and can't think quick enough to know a bullet is coming my way, I hope I have something hard in between to give me those precious seconds.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 5:59:51 PM EDT
I had a couple of older cars that were ready for the scrap yard, so I shot them up just because. One was a mid seventies Chevy Monte Carlo and one was an '85 Ford LTD. I was surprised to find that the majority of .45ACP I fired at the doors, did not penetrate to the interior. 9mm's did penetrate, but did not exit the other side. .223's went through the trunk deck, back seat, front seat and most ended up in the engine compartment. I know this doesn't mean or prove anything, but I had fun doing it.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:24:34 PM EDT
http://www.aavi.com/ http://www.armorholdings.com/products/main_frame.htm http://www.armoredsolutions.com/suv.htm http://www.ballisti-guard.com/ http://blackarmor.com/Cars_Index.htm http://www.compositearmor.com/door.html
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:27:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:28:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: One word: "glass"
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Yep. How you gonna deal with that? Unfortunately, half an armor job, even if you could do it yourself, would still leave you totally vulnerable. I would follow the advice others have given: 1. Defensive/Evasive Driving 2. Personal Body Armor For some quality personal armor, I'd recommend contacting Ron at Duck Armor, (909) 471-8779. Have spoken with him myself, my opinion is that he's upfront and honest.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:35:51 PM EDT
The place you would need the armor is in the glass. The 3" thick bullet-resistant glass used in armored cars would require a rebuild of the doors and the ares in the front and rear that hold the glass. I believe that type of glass breaks down from exposure to sunlight and loses it's ballistic protection after a few years. Armoring the doors isn't hard, buy a big American sedan made out of steel and the regular doors will stop most handgun bullets. You can always drape 30-40 layers of kevlar between the outer and inner panels for some lightweight protection. I'm not an expert by any means so kevlar in that configuration might not do much at all.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:38:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:39:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2001 6:36:09 PM EDT by 50cali]
I know I tend to cite Ebay alot, but I can't help it, I'm addicted. Now they are selling armored bumpers for Lincoln Navigators. They are asking around $5,000. Ram thru anything, or so they claim. I NEED THESE! and a Navigator to go with them...Oh yeah, while you're there, do a search on "van of death." Amazing!
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:43:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:49:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WhomItMayConcern: Will kevler protect if there is no "give"? As I understand, kevlar's strength comes from taking the energy of the bullet and spreading it into a much larger area. If the kevlar can't move in response to a bullet strike, what does that do to it's protection level?
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I have no idea, that's why I said that I'm not an expert.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 6:55:54 PM EDT
For comparison, consider real armored vehicles (mundane, luxury, military) at http://www.ogara-hess.com/
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:01:11 PM EDT
Wait a second! Armour plate should only be used for protection of the - Floor Panels,Under seats, Engine, Drive Train and Fuel cells, where it can be easily affixed. Armour plate is mostly used for protection against EXPLOSIVES. You also need it at hinges and certain areas of the door surround. Yes, Armour plate will protect you from small arms but at what price and WEIGHT. Most vehicles are protected using a combination of Aramid fiber blankets and sheets of composite material. [i] I forgot the exact name, but similar to the Kevlar used in a soldiers helmet[/i] Don't forget to replace all your glass with a ballistic Polycarbonate suitable to the threat level your guarding against. Your first priority should be replacing the glass. Inch for inch it's the most expensive step.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:07:37 PM EDT
SCREW the glass! Just take it out and cover the openings with the armor plating. Make some cut out slits so you can see. That's how BA would do it! Are you going to put a red stripe down the side of your car? I may want to buy it off you when it's done.
Link Posted: 12/13/2001 7:08:51 PM EDT
Agreed that glass is the number 1 priority. But number 2 for me is the cage around me other than the glass. I already have the glass lined up. Have someone that has worked at an armoring company but only did the glass work. Didn't get his hands on the doors. I understand that hinges and other points that can be reinforced and so on but I want to get the general areas taken care of for now. Just like when I wear body armor, not all of it is covered but alot of important stuff is. Thanks for the responses.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 11:23:57 AM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 12:07:00 PM EDT
Damn and I thought this thread was about using Armor All on your cars[;)] Does anybody remember that South African company that were installing flame throwers on the side of cars to discourage car jackings?
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 12:44:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:12:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By holes45: But we try to prepare for everything, right? Just trying to strengthen as many circles of defense I can.
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There has been NO mention of Roof Reinforcement! Just look at the statistics on aircraft parts falling off in mid flight, not to mention "blue ice"
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:36:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:36:50 PM EDT
Or car jackings, drive-by shootings in crowded intersections, ...
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:37:47 PM EDT
http://www.shattergard.com/home.html and select VehicleGard from the menu on the left sidebar.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 1:52:40 PM EDT
While armorizing an entire car seems extreme, to each his own (the beauty of America, hey?). I can relate to the idea of a safe section of a vehicle. Usually the engine serves this purpose. One thing everyone is neglecting here is the same concept for your home. I assume most of you have a "safe room" you will go to in the event of an intruder/robber/etc. Usually this is the master bedroom. Presumably you will be standing beside the door if looking out of this room, or will want a safe corner of the room to have your sig. other & kids go to. Filling a 14.5" stud cavity with alternating layers of kevlar and drywall (to allow the "give" that makes Kevlar strong) wouldn't be too hard to do. Doing this to two stud cavities on either side of the door would allow you stand in relative safety with little trouble. Even in an existing home, cutting the drywall on one side, filling & re-drywalling would only be a weekend task. A lot of these materials would be great for that. Obviously, a solid wood (or even steel) door is advisable. I used several steel doors for the interior of my house and nobody's ever commented they look out of place. You can even reinforce them properly while your wall cavities are opened up. Black Fox
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:05:26 PM EDT
Hey, I got a better idea. What about some steel plates (like the one's I mentioned earlier) custom set in some ratcheting one way tracks outside the glass. They could be rigged to some gas charge to make them shoot up. If the SHTF, pull a rip cord to set off the gas charges and whoosh! Instant coverage of the windows. Kind of like the bat mobile I guess. Man this set up would work great in an old Lincoln or Mercury Monterey. Some car with THICK doors.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:08:31 PM EDT
FYI…Armorize is not a word. You can armor a vehicle or install armor or build an armored car, but armorize is for rubes.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:11:34 PM EDT
I live in Seattle and the shooting that Holes45 mentioned happened downtown in the summer. The perps were actually teens and the victims were from the midwest. It happened in an area popular with locals and tourist for nightlife. Yes, situational awareness is probably the most important tool of security, but you can't always be looking around every corner, timing the traffic lights out so you don't actually stop. Imagine how stupid you'd look driving 5 mph in a thirty five because there's a red light 100 yards in front of you. Also, try staring at every person and vehicle around you while at an intersection, that will get you shot by itself. You'd look like a freak! You'd be labeled "paraniod." Some of the posts suggested that car armor is a step too far. Some would say to us that having an ar15 or any other firearm for home defense is a step too far as well. 911 is all you need they say. Let the police file the crime report and the parametics decide which of you family members should be the first to receive medical attention and which can't be saved. One reply mentioned that if you're not a VIP or know that your life is in danger, you don't need extra protection. Sounds like the argument from Rosie O'donnell. I need armed protection, you others should just call 911. I'm tired and going to bed.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:18:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR: FYI…Armorize is not a word. You can armor a vehicle or install armor or build an armored car, but armorize is for rubes.
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The rules are a little different in downtown Fantasyland. Any necessary word can be made up on the spot.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 2:37:31 PM EDT
Yeah, but if you "armortize" you would be adding protection slowly, over a long period of time. That's a word, right? [:)]
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 3:43:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Yeah, but if you "armortize" you would be adding protection slowly, over a long period of time. That's a word, right? [:)]
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Or reducing protection.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 4:59:54 PM EDT
Paranoia is just a higher state of awareness. But you guys talked me into getting rid of my paranoia. Tomorrow I'm going to sell my handguns and "assault" weapons because you are not likely to get attacked and need these. All you need is a cell phone and a 911 dispatcher. I may keep a little paranoia and hold on to my muzzle loader. Anything else is excessive. People that have anymore should be arrested. They have arsenals. .50 cals are for paranoid delusionals. The best way to survive trouble is to just avoid it by making your sixth sense the strongest. Why would you need a gun when your sixth sense keeps you out of trouble and even when shot at, you can just study the trigger of the perp and time a perfect Matrix move. Gee, being a scheeple is good. All black weapons are baaaaad. BAAAA.
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 5:34:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2001 5:27:44 PM EDT by Ric_A]
Hey Holes45,dont worry I'm with ya on the idea of making an armored car for "personal" reasons,I myself have been tinkering with the idea, i was looking at the local for sale ads and was thinking about maybe a Bronco or Blazer to create my own APC. When I was in Scotland for a while I saw many of the British Police with Landrover Defender 90's that where armored and a Defender 90 is a basic 3 door 4x4 suv. From what it looked like they gut the inside and then add aromor on the outside and a few other things as well as bullet RESISTANT glass where needed,With the Bronco I was thinking about working on I was going to replace the large windows on each side with steel.If you can afford it you can but at auction real APC's from the military[(:)]in my area (Aberdeen proving grounds) I wouldnt recomend the Kevlar Idea considering that if you are ever under fire that you have to replace the whole sheet of that Kevlar,with steel or any metal you can just cut out a 5"x5" square around each bullet impact and weld a steel patch,and it is much more cost efficient. If you would like to share ideas or comments feel free to E-mail me! [USA] "IF YOUR NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION,YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!" Support the NRA!
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 5:37:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2001 5:30:38 PM EDT by DScott]
Glad you've got the "glass" problem solved. Please, don't let anyone discourage you from following your dream. All I ask is that you post pix when it's done, OK?
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 6:00:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Glad you've got the "glass" problem solved. Please, don't let anyone discourage you from following your dream. All I ask is that you post pix when it's done, OK?
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Following my dream...[stick].... smart a$$ ~Just kidding DScott
Link Posted: 12/14/2001 6:02:46 PM EDT
Me too... [:p]
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