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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/27/2002 8:17:42 AM EST
I belong to a PD SWAT team, and we recently purchuased Armalite AR's. They have 11.5 in barrels, full-auto, collapsable stocks, Surefire handguard lighting system. Since we have received these rifles they have been one headache after another. Their major problems seem to be failure to feed and failure to lock back on empty magazines. We have been using new magazines of various manufacturers so I don't believe they are the problem. Another problem that has us perplexed is that after shooting (as few as 20 rounds), and we disassemble the gun for cleaning, the firing pin retaining pin is bent. Bent to the point that you have to use a pliers to pull it out. All the pins bend in the same way. What is up with these guns? On one of the guns, after shooting approximately 30 rounds through it, the trigger pin popped out, disengaging the trigger. this was fixed only after cutting an additional detent in the pin and deeping the other one. The dealer where who we bought them from is clueless and rude. Any ideas?
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:21:25 AM EST
Why don't you call ArmaLite?
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:29:23 AM EST
Sorry I am a poor Canadian who's government has decided cannot be trusted with full auto weapons.....as such I could not hazard a guess.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:33:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2002 8:36:43 AM EST by ED_P]
1. I thought Armalite had a lifetime warranty and very good customer service from what I read here, I'd think they'd fix your problems. 2. I am by NO means an expert, but if you've tried different mags, with multiple rifles, what have you tried for different ammo? I know my Bushmaster is picky about ammo with a 20" barrel, not working well with PMC. Those 11.5" barrels could make your gun additionally sensitive to inconsistent/unexpected powered ammo, by my guess.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:37:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN: Why don't you call ArmaLite?
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I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. The dealer who we bought them from has been a real prick, and seems to blame everything, but the rifle. We have conferred with other SWAT Armors in the area and one of them found a problem with the gas port in the barrel. He said it was too large, and he also said the front site post assembly was out of wack. We did some of our own experiments, such as changing out the reduced rate buffer spring assembly to a normal M4 buffer. That seemed to make the rifle more reliable, but don't know what the lasting effect will be.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:46:58 AM EST
We have tried numerous magazines (most of which were brand new), and the new ArmaLite magazines that came with the guns. We shoot various types of ammunition, but all the ammunition we shoot is very high quality. If the rifles are that picky about ammo, then there is something wrong. When you fire a round the bolts really seem to go back very slowly and with little force. This is probably why we are having the failure to feed, and failure to lock back malfunctions. I have a lot of experience with AR's, to include owning Bushmaster AR. Most of the guys on the team have AR's, from Colt, ASA, Bushmaster, DPMS. None of us have ever had problems like this before. I will call ArmaLite on Monday. We'll see what they say.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:57:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/27/2002 9:04:01 AM EST by 199]
I’m having the same problem with an Armalite with the failure to lock back on an empty magazine. I haven’t quite puzzled it out yet – the bolt catch moves freely and I’ve drowned it in CLP. I’m wondering if the bolt catch spring is a smidgen too strong. When I get (or make) the right disassembly punch, I’m going to replace the spring and see what happens. Granted, maybe the hole for the spring is a little too shallow instead. I haven’t had any of your other problems. However, my carrier gas key isn’t even close to being properly staked and has come loose. They put one meaningless dimple next to each of the hex screw heads. You might want to check that out, too! Contacting Armalite directly is a good idea. I hate to say it, but despite their political correctness and higher prices, I’m really starting to think that Colt makes the best AR. Moving this to the troubleshooting forum might attract the attention of some of our more knowledgable members. Good luck – sorry I couldn’t really help. Edited to add that I didn't see your later post before posting this - if the bolt is moving slowly, it might be that your gas key has worked loose.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 9:49:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 10:30:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:00:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:01:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:28:48 AM EST
If you have your own gunsmith, you could try one of these "pig tail" type gas tubes. Gas tubes aren't that hard to install yourself. You just need a punch set. [url]http://www.m16pigtail.com/[/url] I've never tried this system out, but it seems logical that they would work with effectively longer tube and slower cyclic rate. Also, check the gas rings on the bolt. If they installed those one piece coil type rings and your bolt carrier is chrome lined, that could create a tight situation and possible failure to feed.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:43:56 AM EST
I've had the very same issues with a NM Armalite. No resolutions yet.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:56:22 AM EST
Thanks for all the useful information. I would agree with Big_Bear that the rifle is short-stroking as a result of the gas system, causing the malfunctions. Gas system aside, we are very disappointed with the quality of the Armalite rifles. The gun does not seem near as "tight" or refined as Bushmaster. We were aware that the shorter barrel AR's notoriously had problems. We intially considered the 10" barrels, but decided on the 11.5" for that reason. An M4's 14.5" barrel is just too long for CQ entry. We wanted to go with a .223 round (as opposed to 9mm, .40, and .45) so that body armor would not be factor. I think we would of been better off with a bull-pup configuration, (i.e. Steyr AUG), but I don't make those decisions.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 11:58:57 AM EST
merost, please check your email.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 12:53:25 PM EST
Why do you think you need full-auto weapons?
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 1:14:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86: Why do you think you need full-auto weapons?
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Why must you hijack the thread with a stupid question. If you have nothing constructive to add, stay out of it......My .02 cents
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 1:39:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By ChrisLe:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Why do you think you need full-auto weapons?
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Why must you hijack the thread with a stupid question. If you have nothing constructive to add, stay out of it......My .02 cents
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It's a legitimate question. The problem is obviously related to full auto fire. Full-auto is used to assault a fortified position and provide supressed fire, (or a tactical retreat under fire), while doing so. It seems to me, that a civilian agency should be more concerned with accuracy rather than firepower, considering that when you kick down a door there are probably some "non-players" on the other side of it...... Just MY .02
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 2:54:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 3:15:40 PM EST
IIRC, after some testing, it was determined that the 14.5 barrel was about as short as you could go and still maintain reliability.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 4:01:33 PM EST
FWIW, I sold my ArmaLite 16" Carbine (T) upper to a U.S. Marshall and he loves it! Put it on a Panther Arms LEO lower and now it's his personal self-defense/swat backup weapon. I believe, like the others, that the barrel length is critical in the proper functioning. btw, He caught a bad guy, with it, about a week after I sold it to him.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:16:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86: Why do you think you need full-auto weapons?
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I use full-auto far more than I use semi-auto. With a lot of practice you can put two, three or four rounds within a one inch circle with a single pull of the trigger. It is far more efficient and accurate than firing hammer pairs. You will find that most serious SWAT teams use full-auto exclusively. Even if I am firing a two or three round burst gun, I use full-auto as does most other SWAT operators I have met. The only time I would select semi-auto is in a case where I need to fire at longer distances, which is rare.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:29:53 PM EST
[/quote]It's a legitimate question. The problem is obviously related to full auto fire. Full-auto is used to assault a fortified position and provide supressed fire, (or a tactical retreat under fire), while doing so. It seems to me, that a civilian agency should be more concerned with accuracy rather than firepower, considering that when you kick down a door there are probably some "non-players" on the other side of it...... Just MY .02[/quote] First of all, our problems have nothing to do with full-auto. We have more malfunctions on semi-auto. Secondly, using full-auto for supressive fire in an urban law enforcement mission should NEVER happen. As a police officer you have to be accountable for every round you fire, even when the $hit hits the fan. When we use full-auto we NEVER shoot more than four rounds at one time, and normally it would limited to two or three rounds. Any more than four rounds and you won't be able to guarantee where your rounds will go. LE SWAT tactics are a lot different than military tactics. We don't have the luxury of not worrying about where all our rounds go.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 8:37:01 PM EST
[/quote]And I don't believe that you are getting sufficient velocity to penetrate decent armor as well. Just my opinion. [/quote] Actually, we have extensively tested the .223 round against body armor, to include level II and level III armor. Every .223 round we fired, to include FMJ, soft point, etc, all easily penetrated the level II and III ballastic body armor. That is including shooting straight though the trauma plate. The only thing that we found that will reliably stop a .223 round is level IV or a ceramic plate.
Link Posted: 7/27/2002 9:19:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By merost: I belong to a PD SWAT team, and we recently purchuased Armalite AR's. They have 11.5 in barrels, full-auto, collapsable stocks, snip The dealer where who we bought them from is clueless and rude. Any ideas?
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I don't get this post at all. If the purpose is to advertise for police recruits, suggesting joining a local PD so one could shoot full auto, this would make sense. If the purpose is to brag that the Constitution has been tossed and only police get real weapons, this makes sense. If the purpose is to join our discussion group, I guess this post makes sense. Welcome to you. However, if you want help with full auto, I would suggest you post in the full auto forum. If you want help from an Armalite employee, I would suggest you post in, you guessed it, the Armalite forum. We are usually fair here, sort of, and you did not give Armalite a chance to help, IMO. If you want to discuss uppers and barrels, right again, there is an uppers and barrels forum. [b][i]If you want to trash the dealer that won't stand behind his sale, this is the forum to trash dealers that deserve to be trashed[/i][/b]. But you did not give us the offending dealer's name.
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