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Posted: 10/17/2004 5:04:28 PM EST
I'd like a very small pistol, and they are about right. Any good? Function is more important than caliber (.32 vs.380). I'm aware of the DAO, and thats fine.

Before you hammerheads say 1911, I do actually mean small. I've got a Glock 26, and want to make that look like a full sized firearm.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:06:03 PM EST
Most of the people that put down Kel-Tecs are one of two things:

1.) Anti-Americans, especially of the French or Communist nature.
2.) Non-Kel-Tec owners and brand-name snobs.


Kel-Tec is a fine company, and their P3ATs come highly recommended from a fellow shooter that I know.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:06:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 5:07:17 PM EST by Specop_007]
Makarov.com sells a Black Widow. Its a 17HMR derringer revolver, 5 shot I believe.
I sure wouldnt want to get into any gunplay with it, but if you need something discreet it would surely fit the bill, and I would imagine 17HMR even from a short barrel at close range would fuck someone up.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:13:23 PM EST
I have a P-11, and it works allright after a trip back to Kel-Tec (I managed to get an early model, but they updated it for free).

From what I hear, the P3AT it a little on the edge. If you have trouble hanging on to a tiny pistol with a decent kick, then it might jam. The P-32 may be more reliable for some people.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:15:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:19:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 5:20:02 PM EST by hydroshok]
I bought a 380 , complete POS fte, ftf every other round and a dealer told me they will only last about 1500 -2000 rds
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:21:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:23:51 PM EST
I really like mine.

This thread seems to pop up about once every two weeks. Same people defending, same people bashing.

I put pinkie extensions on all of my mags and the fte's stopped. It makes it much easier to handle and eliminates limp wristing.

The 3AT is with me at all times.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:24:50 PM EST
I carry my P3AT in a Fobus holster everyday and it goes bang when I shoot it. I did take advantage of the hard chrome exchange program. If you send your blued slide and barrel in to Kel-Tec they send you back new chromed slide and barrel for 20 bucks. The only FTFs I've had was with the CCI aluminum cased ammo. Everything else works great.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:25:37 PM EST
I have a P-11. It shot low and to the left.

I sent it to Kel-Tec and they replced the barrel and included a free set of extra sights.

No other problems since then. (1997) I still use it as my travel/vacation gun.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:25:53 PM EST
I must be one of the lucky ones. I've had a P-32 and a P-11. Both have worked perfectly. I carry the 32 on my ankle while at work (PD) as a backup gun. I have had no failures in the 250 or so rounds I have shot through it.
I'll admit, the trigger pull sucks. Its not to bad on the P-32, but worse on the P-11 (9mm). With a little pratice, they are not a problem.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:30:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:30:40 PM EST
My wife has a P-32that has about 500 rounds thru it with no malfunctions.

I bought a P3AT that I haven't had a chance to run any rounds thru.

The sights do leave something to be desired but with practice you will have no problem hitting what you are aiming at or rather pointing at!

BigDozer66

Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:31:50 PM EST
I have a p32, its the best carry gun short of the 380 version.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:32:35 PM EST
My wife's got ~500 rounds through her P-3AT. We had to sand down the mold lines on the frame because she was bleeding after the 1st 100 rounds. After the sanding job it was fine.

I'll never carry anything smaller than a G27. And my wife would normally reach for a G23. But she refuses to carry anything that's reasonably sized. She was carrying a PPK/S in .380. She likes the 3AT a lot better, and it's so light she now carries a extra mag and an E2 with it, so I saw that as a huge bonus. Plus it's much easier to shoot than the PPK.

It has an annoying tendency to throw cases straight back in your face. It has the typically terrible back-up-gun sights. And, yes, I wouldn't expect it to go 1000's of rounds without breaking something. But it's super small, super light and very reliable. They are a bit spotty coming out of the factory, so make sure you test at least 250 rounds of your carry ammo. Hers was good to go out of the box. The factory will make it right, if necessary, and at what they cost it's a hell of a deal even if it costs you shipping to the factory to make it right. A very good back-up or pocket gun if that's all you can carry.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:33:34 PM EST
info about the kel-tec and tips and tricks ktog.org/
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:33:47 PM EST
I never realized they were this bad. I almost bought one a few months back as a backup "Pocket Pistol". Glad I never got around to it.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:36:53 PM EST
I have a P3AT that I keep with me at all times. Not an easy thing to say with shorts and a T-shirt in Texas. (I do switch to a Para 45 when the situation permits)

One thing to note, is that one of the way that they keep the price on these guns down is that they don't do much (if anything) in the way of hand fitting.

I took mine apart when it was brand new and did a complete fluff-and-buff as described on the Kelteg users group site ktog.org. It just takes a light touch with some fine sandpaper and polishing compound. Makes a huge improvement in smoothness that you can feel just by cycling the slide.

I've got about 300rds though it and so far I have had exactly 1 failure (FTE).

For what it costs and what it was designed to do, it's a great gun.

Ed
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:40:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:49:24 PM EST
Another P3AT owner here, I like mine and carry it often. If you live in a warm climate and have trouble concealing larger pistols under light clothing it's better to have one of these than going unarmed. I've been an HK/SIG guy for a lot of years and was very sceptical about Kel-Tec quality but loved the pistol once I bought it and used it for awhile.

I expected to do the buff & polish process that's often recommended on these but when I first stripped and cleaned mine out of the box the internal finishes looked pretty damn good so I left them alone and just lubed it up.

Zero failures of any kind so far. I don't expect to put thousands of rounds through these pistols because they're not made for that. My thought is that you put enough rounds through to prove reliability and become familiar with it, then use for carry and periodic practice.

The Bersa Thunder mag extensions that the Beer Slayer mentioned are a must have.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:56:43 PM EST
I have the Kel Tec P3AT, and my dad has one as well.

Mine has been very reliable. I use it as my 9-5 piece.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 5:57:29 PM EST
I have two P3-AT's. No mods... no fluff/buff. At first I found the recoil STOUT but now I dont even notice it.....

I had some choking from time to time with Wicnhester white box ammo.... switched to Winchester ranger, and corbon, and both have been 100%.

Great little micro-carry gun.... they are what they are. They arent everyday shooters.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:06:49 PM EST
Over 1200 rds through my P32 and it is still tight and runs like a champ...
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:07:28 PM EST
I love mine and I think it has less snap than my other handguns, G27 included. I don't leave home with out it!!!!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:19:01 PM EST
I have about 250 rounds thru my P11 - no problems, reasonable accuracy. I recognize it for what it is ..... a pocket pistol!!! If something goes bump in the night, I want my 1911 or 870. If I want to be unobtrusively armed, I have the P11.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:19:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 6:21:42 PM EST by bigbore]
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:22:44 PM EST
tagged
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:30:34 PM EST

I bought one this summer.

The gun was accurate.

But jammed CONSTANTLY!

Mostly fte, but also failure to go into
battery.

I called Kel-tec, and the girl said right away that they had a "bad batch" that this was common on and if I sent it back, they would put a heavier spring and a differant extractor in it.

While they seem to stand behind it and are willing to make it right, ( I didn`t send it back yet due to the hurricanes, and have since not gotten to it), I was very disapointed that they were aware some have problems and are just waiting to get them trickling back.

I wish now I had gone with the NAA Gaurdian.
I have their little .22 mag revolver, and they seem VERY well made.

I will see how the Kel-tec is when it comes back before I give up on it.

If it works,,it is a great concept.


Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:31:18 PM EST
Haven't had any problems with my P32 and don't even notice it when it's with me, tho I prefer to carry my Glock 27. Guntest magazine gave it a BEST BUY when they featured it. I think Winchester silver tip HPs are recommended but have heard Cor Bons are fine too.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:34:39 PM EST
I have had a P32 for about 4 years and I have no complaints.

Most bad things you might hear about them come from those who try to "press fire" them like Glocks, (trying to shoot DA with the first round and SA with the remaining rounds.) The weapon does not have a substantial inner hammer spring and was never designed to be fired SA. It should be fired DA only.

The other bad things you may here about them usually come from know-it-all posers who have never fired one and are full of shi'ite.

I have NEVER heard of ANY verifiable instance of a commissioned department "banning" them from carry as back-up weapons. The only limitation that even comes close is in caliber only as some departments require a minimum bullet diameter of .38, which the .380 caliber Kel-Tec satisfies.

I didn't like it when I first saw it, then I shot it, and I bought it.

GunTests.com also gave them a "Our Pick" rating. Their only complaint was that the weapon looks like and is as light as a toy. They are afraid that it might be mistaken for a toy.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:57:49 PM EST
You may also want to look into Beretta Tomcats. I have one in .32 and I think it's great. It has never jammed on me yet and is pretty damn small. I put one of those clipdraw pocket clips on it, makes it really convenient for carry.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:00:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Makarov.com sells a Black Widow. Its a 17HMR derringer revolver, 5 shot I believe.
I sure wouldnt want to get into any gunplay with it, but if you need something discreet it would surely fit the bill, and I would imagine 17HMR even from a short barrel at close range would fuck someone up.


That sound cool. I've always heard Kel-Tec were good pistols wish they would make a 45ACP though
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:15:15 PM EST
I have a p3AT, it jams about once every 50 rounds but I'm fairly sure that they are all my fault for limp wristing. Usually by the end of the box my hand gets tired and an empty case gets stuck trying to eject. The sights are terrible, so I just use the point-shooting method, that way I don't even need a grip extender since I only have 2 fingers on the grip anyway. My only other complaint is the brass smacking into my forehead occasionally . I'm glad I bought it though, because its so small and light I never forget to leave it behind!
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:37:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/17/2004 7:40:18 PM EST by Boomvang]
I have both the P3AT and the P32. NO malfunctions in over 300 rounds through each gun.... that includes assorted FMJ and WW STHP in both. They are great back-up guns, or a primary gun for a low-threat person. There isn't anything lighter or thinner around.

The gun has to be shot with a manly grip due to it's light weight. The girly men that continually have malfunctions need to spend some time in the gym, or go to a revolver instead. Someone mentioned "sanding mold lines" to stop "bleeding hands"... if true, better wear a glove while shooting, as I've yet to see any sharp "mold lines" on the dozens of guns I've examined. I fire 50-100 rounds in a session with no ill effects... the guy that mentioned having to call it quits "after 20 rounds" due to the recoil, should find a nice S&W all-steel K-frame .22 instead, and fire .22 shorts out of it.

The Kel-Tec magazine baseplate extensions work great, add 1 extra round, and unless you are wearing faggot jeans, don't really print much more than the regular magazine baseplate.

They will easily keep all the shots on a Q silo target at 15 yards. About 7 yards and in all these guns are for, since the sights are rudimentary and the trigger pull, while not overly heavy, is very long. Cops around here are buying them in boatloads as a backup. The guns are not intended for 5,000 rounds a year ad infinitum... they are a supplement to a larger gun you regularly practice with.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:29:54 AM EST
I've got a P11 9mm keltec, and i used to have a P32.

The trigger on the 9mm was horrendous from the factory, and i was planning on doing a fluff n buff at some point, but after awhile i noticed the trigger had smoothed out a great deal on it's own, and is now quite plesant. it's not a very pretty gun, but it goes bang when i pull ther trigger, and the light weight is a definite plus. with the belt clip it disappears into my waistband. (if you've had trouble with the clip comin loose, try some locktite. it worked fine for me.)

the P32 is a great little gun and I'll get another as soon as i'm able to. it beats the pants off the beretta tomcat as far as i'm concerned. the beretta is a pocket anchor, and the trigger breaks way too far to the rear (everybody i know who has shot my brothers tomcat has remarked that it the trigger tends to pinch the finger and prevent the trigger from going back all the way). the P32 is also much more pleasant to shoot than the tomcat. the locked breech p32 tends to absorb the shock. blowbacks like the tomcat tend to have nasty recoil for thier size, and the tomcats recoil is certainly brisk. whats really amazing about the p32 is how light and compact is is. there is no better pocket pistol in my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:34:36 AM EST
My boss had one, I shot it and don't like it very much. Recoil was very brisk and rubbed my hand raw after 3 rounds. I didn't like the long, long, long trigger pull either.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:44:45 AM EST
I have a P11 that I've carried for the past couple of years.

The only problem I had with it was FTFs with JHP ammo. I polished the feed ramp and it has performed flawlessly since then. As noted elsewhere, you need to have confidence that the gun will go bang everytime you squeeze the trigger. I have that confidence in my P11. I used it for qual when I took my CWP class and scored a 98.

The key to understanding a KelTec is to take it for what it is and not expect it to be as polished as a gun that costs 3 or 4 times as much.

It's not a precision target gun. It has a long DA trigger pull. I'm pretty good with mine because I've practiced with a snap cap. That actually messed me up when I picked up a Springfield XD9. The motor memory in my finger was pulling on the trigger like it was the KT. I was all over the paper until I realized what I was doing!

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:02:39 AM EST
I have a P3TA that runs flawlessly, I feed it Speer Gold Dot 90 grn, and it loves it.
POSITIVES:
Inexpensive.
Small size for T Shirt and Shorts weather.
Very light weight.
7 rounds.
No safetys to muck with.
IWB is comfortable.
NEGATIVES:
Recoil.
No last round hold open.
It's a .380.
For me, it's what I wanted, it fills a special nitch and as with any weapon there are trade offs.
Larger caliber means a larger heavier weapon that is harder to carry/conceal.
Smaller caliber is lighter and more concealable, but at the price of stopping power.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:10:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By mpearcex:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Makarov.com sells a Black Widow. Its a 17HMR derringer revolver, 5 shot I believe.
I sure wouldnt want to get into any gunplay with it, but if you need something discreet it would surely fit the bill, and I would imagine 17HMR even from a short barrel at close range would fuck someone up.


That sound cool. I've always heard Kel-Tec were good pistols wish they would make a 45ACP though



Yeah, I think it was 150 bucks, or 170. I cant remember, not too much. It wasnt made by Kel-Tec, I'm not sure who made it. I just thought it'd be a kick ass "Lady gun". You know, small, cute and filled with a nasty attitude for all those ladies we have.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:20:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I never realized they were this bad. I almost bought one a few months back as a backup "Pocket Pistol". Glad I never got around to it.



Are you reading the same thread we are?

mike



Mike,
I damn near typed the same thing.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:31:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Or someone who has seen what junk they are, and refuses sell them eanymore. Most local Police Depts. wont allow them as BUG or off duty due to their high failure rate(while qualifying). Dont scrimp when it comes to something your life may depend on. Buy a J-Frame or a Derringer if you want something small.




I have over 3K through my P11. Can you tell me how many more rounds I have left before it falls apart?

Bought the wife a P32. It appears to shoot well also, but I'm probably overlooking something.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:33:33 AM EST
Log another satisfied owner of a P3AT.

It is the BUG of choice at my agency because its easy to wear for 12 hours at a time and fits nicely in a vest or ankle holster.
All of ours are tested and the officer must qualify with them before he can carry it. This allows it to be further tested to see if the officer is a potential problem.
The only problems we are having with the P3AT are that some officersare weak wristing them and this almost guarantees a jam.

I've had the pleasure of visiting the Keltec plant in Cocoa and meeting a KT gunsmith named Marty. Their customer service is second to none and they're some of the friendliest people you'll ever meet.

I plan on buying one for my dad for Xmas.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:44:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:48:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:48:38 AM EST
buy a seecamp 32 or 380 instead.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:51:47 AM EST
I have a p11 and it is a POS. The trigger takes an act of God to pull and the first time taking it to the range it had to see a gun smith to get its chamber polished. Cases would go in but not come out. Dont get me wrong, it goes bang every time i pull the trigger, but i would never trust it.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:03:48 AM EST
I have one that i use when my G27 would be too heavy or bulky, such as when i'm wearing shorts. I'll also use it when i'm padding around the house where my glock would tend to get heavy, caught on things, dig into my side and cut down on available room when one of my kids wants to share a chair with me.

Mine had a couple of malfs, i don't remember what they were, on day one. I did the fluff and buff thing and haven't had any problems since except for an occasional "light primer strike" which i attribute to the ammo i practice with. I practice NSR, dumping a mag to COM with no problems. I carry using a disantis nemisis pocket holster.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:11:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:21:22 AM EST
mine goes bang every time. 300 times. Now I just carry it as a BUG.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:30:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:
Most of the people that put down Kel-Tecs are one of two things:

1.) Anti-Americans, especially of the French or Communist nature.
2.) Non-Kel-Tec owners and brand-name snobs.


Kel-Tec is a fine company, and their P3ATs come highly recommended from a fellow shooter that I know.



Or someone who has seen what junk they are, and refuses sell them eanymore. Most local Police Depts. wont allow them as BUG or off duty due to their high failure rate(while qualifying). Dont scrimp when it comes to something your life may depend on. Buy a J-Frame or a Derringer if you want something small.



Can you provide some documentation on this? i keep seeing this posted here by a few folks but this is the only place i see it. There never seems to be anything other than opinion regarding it. Not trying to be an ass, just really curios.

I have spoken with several FFL's here about it and they have not seen any problems. Yes they are cheap guns and i don't think they are built to last thousands of rounds but i have not found JUNK to be a justifiable description.



The failure rate I have seen with Kel-Tecs, make Hi-Points look like HKs. Call the Sylvania PD. and ask for Officer Rick Schnoor. His trigger broke, the DAY AFTER he pulled it on a BG - Had he needed to use it on the BG, it wouldnt have worked. Call the Sylvaina TWP PD and ask for Officer Ron Dikus - they had 2 in one week fail while the officers were attempting to qualify. Call the Holland PD and ask for Officer Rick Neely, ask him about how many failed during qualifying.
By "fail" I mean, wont go bang until a part is replaced, meaning sent back or such - not a simple clear a jam and keep going..
This is just limited to those I have sold here in NW OH. It absolutely amazes me that anyone would even consider one of the for personal protection. You may have a Kel-Tec that functions like a clock for ever, and it may just break the next time you need it. To each his own, I'll leave natural selection run its course for anyone who continues to carry a Kel-Tec after numerous warnings about their reliability.



Were all of these guns in question bought at about the same time? From the same place?

Have you considered that maybe your situation was an anomoly? As others have posted, Kel-Tec has admitted to a few "bad batches" getting to market. If such a bad batch were to be produced, they may very well have mainly gone to one specific area - such as Ohio.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:40:13 AM EST
Kel-Tec is fine so long as you recognize its real purpose. It is intended as, and should only be considered as a self-defense weapon or back-up. That means it is a "belly gun", not for 50 yard target shooting. It is not a "range gun" to be used for shooting thousands of rounds - it will come apart, that's the price for lightness. Any of my 1911's will ooutlast a KelTec for shooting on a range , but that's not the purpose.

That said, take the AT if you want a really small package; run at least 100 rounds through it as break-in and reliability test. Any problems, Kel Tec is one of the best as far as customer service. Then carry it and run maybe 20 rounds through it periodically to keep familiar. It will be fine.

Another of their weapons to consider would be the P-11,which is 9 mm. It's not a lot larger, though it is, butr still is concealable. I have the P-40 version, which is .40S&W, and no longer available. Too many people were using them on the range (as commented above), and complained about the pistol coming apart after 1200 hot rounds on the range!!! Duh! It's light plastic!!

Bottom line: I recommend it for civilian ccw. After all, you are only shooting within a few yards, so the target accuracy doesn't count, they are sufficient. The problem with police use is that officers generally have to qualify, m,eaning lots of rounds, regularly. So that's too much.
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