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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/21/2002 7:10:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2002 8:26:58 PM EDT by sulaco]
I noticed that AR15 series weapons are classified as Assault Weapons in U.S.C. Title 18, part 1, chapter 44, sec. 922(a)(30) <1994 Assault Weapon Ban>. If so then why can I buy a post-ban AR15 style rifle from bushmaster or other distributors when this style rifle was specifically named as an Assault Weapon no matter what features it has? If an AR15 is not an Assault Weapon, what is it? Hear is a link that names the AR15 series as an Assault Weapon. [url]http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/921.html[/url] Please note that this question pertains to federal law, not PPK law Kalifornia law is a whole different story [;)] Wow cool, this was my 100th post [:D]
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 9:05:17 PM EDT
The Colt AR-15 was specifically mentioned by name. But, if you look nobody makes AR-15s anymore. You will find LAR-15, XM-15, etc...but no more AR-15s. In fact, if Colt ever places the model AR-15 on any receiver, it is automatically an AW regardless of features. The ATF has allowed Post-Ban ARs. There are 2 reasons for this: 1) Series bans have been struck down in Federal Court as unconstitutionally vague. 2) A Post-Ban is not a duplicate of the AR-15 as it doesn't have a bayonet lug, flash suppressor, etc...An old article I saw in 1994 said something along the lines of the congress meaning having the same features by duplicate. So, an AR-15 type with Bayonet Lug and Flash Suppressor would be a duplicate of the Colt ar-15, But would also meet the feature definiton.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 9:18:49 PM EDT
Cool, more info on this subject would also help [:)] I kind of figured that would be the case. If you could dig up some old cases that would be VERY helpful. Now that I know what I'm looking for I'll do some searching too. I’m guessing that post-ban AR’s are classified as sporting purpose rifles right?
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 11:28:40 PM EDT
As I understand it, post-ban AR's are simply considered semiautomatic rifles.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 4:00:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2002 4:02:40 AM EDT by USNJoe]
Read the rest of that section of the law. A post ban AR15 is (meets (B) definition BUT ONLY HAS ONE ITEM) and has a pistol grip. That is why you can take a post ban M1A1 and put a flash hider on it (except in Kalifornicstan). (30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means - (B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and (v) a grenade launcher;
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 9:54:45 AM EDT
Hi sulaco. Under federal law a post-ban AR-15 type rifle is not a "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon". That's why they are legal. They are just rifles to the feds. But not so in Californistan. Unless you have one of the gogogadgets.com lowers (which will not accept detachable magazines), they're all "AWs" in the eyes of the Caliban.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 3:05:41 PM EDT
Actually the part that pertains to this desiccation is… Sec. 921 (30)(a) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as – Sec. 921 (30)(a)(iv) Colt AR-15 However it has been clearly demonstrated that products that are currently available from Bushmaster, gogogadgets and others don’t qualify as an AR-15 copy or duplication, for if the were then they would be banned from sale to civilians across the country . Lets keep the Caliban out of this discussion, pointy sticks will probably be considered assault weapon soon enough over here…
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 10:54:13 AM EDT
This stuff is totally depressing. I wonder if there will ever be a chance to purchase an "AR" type rifle in CA again? Have you seen the legal to own AR type rifle made by DPMS? Why even buy the thing. (I am not bagging on DPMS)
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 12:47:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2002 1:48:37 PM EDT by sulaco]
I here yeah Rmek, I’m tinkering with a few ideas of how to get a legal AR style rifle sold in this state, so that anyone can buy and own them. Buying a lower receiver that is currently not on the list is not a good idea, because once they add it you will be required to relinquish it – no registration. My inquiry about making a lower from an 80% or a 0% so far has not been answered. You would just need to build it in a legal configuration. The thing with the make it your self AR style frames is this, if you make an AR lower with your own serial numbers and name on it then it’s yours and in order to be relinquished it needs to be added to the list of banned AR lowers. I asked this question to the Department of Justice about a month ago and have not received any information about it since. Basically if this is true then it will make identifying home made lowers near unenforceable, because they cannot require you to surrender it until it is listed which takes about a year or so [b][/b]. Although the process described above will do nothing more than prolong the imminent, which is confiscation of your rifle. If you wanted to come up with a more permanent solution then I would think that modifying the mag well so that it will no longer accept M16 style magazines and would only accept a 10 round magazine built specifically to that rifle then that should mete the requirements of not being an AR15 series weapon as defined by 12276(E). The two AR style receivers that are saleable in CA do not use AR15 magazines, so with this precedent you should have some leg to stand on. Again, something I need to ask and get in wring. 12276(E) The term "series" includes all other models that are only variations, with minor differences, of those models listed in subdivision (a), regardless of the manufacturer. [b]PLEASE NOTE: This information has not been clarified in writing with the DOJ; so don’t try to make a lower at this time!! I’ll post an update later.[/b] In the mean time if your dying for an AR style rifle get a pre-ban configured FAB10.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 12:06:57 AM EDT
What if you permanently made the AR15 single shot? You can block the gas port so the rifle wont cycle and whala, no longer semi-auto. Now you can keep your pistol grip and detachable magazine. Now this is just my theory, as I dont know all the laws concerning these things. I think a single shot AR15 would still be fun and practicle to own and plink with. And for those longrange accuracy buffs, semi dosent really matter anyways. It's also easiest way to keep the rifle closest to it original condition.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 9:53:00 AM EDT
There's always the English solution, dump the gas system and make it a strait pull blot action.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:22:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheProfessional: What if you permanently made the AR15 single shot? You can block the gas port so the rifle wont cycle and whala, no longer semi-auto. Now you can keep your pistol grip and detachable magazine. Now this is just my theory, as I dont know all the laws concerning these things. I think a single shot AR15 would still be fun and practicle to own and plink with. And for those longrange accuracy buffs, semi dosent really matter anyways. It's also easiest way to keep the rifle closest to it original condition.
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This has already been done. I beleive Century Arms International(think thats it) came out with a kalifoniastan legal pump action AR-15 and pumpaction AK47. [beer]
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:44:48 AM EDT
From my conversations with the DoJ and reading the laws I believe this is the story: Build-it yourself: Irregardless of BIY firearms laws, if you build it with features that are banned by SB23 then it is illegal. If you make an AR15 with a riflestock and no "conspicuosly protruding" grip then you are OK. Modifying your gun: You cannot take your Bushy, Colt whatever and just make it a bolt action, single shot, no gas system whatever. It is still banned by name regardless of features. Importing into the state: AFAIK, if you can find an AR lower that is not listed on the banned list AND you can actually find a FFL who will do the transfer, it is legal. They have to be specifically listed by name. If the DoJ adds it to the list I believe you would have 90 days to register, at that point you can add the evil features back. Without being named you cannot add all the SB23 evil features as that will create an AW after the law went into effect.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:46:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheProfessional: What if you permanently made the AR15 single shot? You can block the gas port so the rifle wont cycle and whala, no longer semi-auto. Now you can keep your pistol grip and detachable magazine. Now this is just my theory, as I dont know all the laws concerning these things. I think a single shot AR15 would still be fun and practicle to own and plink with. And for those longrange accuracy buffs, semi dosent really matter anyways. It's also easiest way to keep the rifle closest to it original condition.
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You think wrong, what's fun about a difficult to load single shot? Its a poser rifle, at that point, its cheaper and makes more sense to get a REAL rifle and get a bolt gun. Nothing fun about shooting an AR one round at a time. The only reason I have done it is to work up handloads so I don't have to crimp them until I found the ideal bullet/casing/powder/primer config. MAYBE if you can make an AR loadable from the bottom by 10 round stripper clips, that'd be a good idea, I even came up with the design to making it work.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 4:29:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2002 4:33:53 PM EDT by TheProfessional]
Sure it would. If you live under the rule of the Kaliban, and want your AR15 left closest to its original condition, this is the BEST modification. And why wouldnt single shooting be fun? Sure, unloading a clip in 5 seconds is nice, but its not what having an AR is all about. I would think not having a detachable magazine would be horrible. And if the world was coming to an end, or sh!t hit the fan, it would be easy to change it back to semi. Just pop on your "just in case" upper. But like I said before, this is just my theory, as I dont know about all the laws Kali made.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 4:51:10 PM EDT
One reason that the post ban rifles don't automatically fall under the assgun laws, is the narrowed section inside the rear of the lower receiver. This make dropping in M16 parts like the autosear more difficult than drilling one hole in the right spot. At least that's NJ's logic.
Link Posted: 3/10/2002 9:25:30 AM EDT
SB23, 12285.(c)(B) (B) lawfully possessed a firearm subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5, or subsequently defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section 12230) of Chapter 2, or remove the weapon from this state. A person who lawfully possessed a firearm that was subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5 may alternatively register the firearm within 90 days of the declaration issued pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12276.5.
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Alright so you can register an AR lower that has not been added to there list. Finding an FFL that will let that will take a transfer will not be easy. Now I wonder, what if you make an AR lower, slap you a serial and name on it and then submit plans to the DOJ and see what they would do. I don’t think they can’t force you to relinquish it until its been classified as an AR15 series lower, which means they must add your products name to there list. All hypothetical really, and like I said before – if enough people do it then it will not be enforceable. Anyway, my next letter to the DOJ will include that little snippet above and explain that if I wanted to make an AR lower how would this little section effect me? When I talked to them on the phone I asked if I could make a lower, the guy said no. Then I told him that I remember of a case not that long ago where in order to be considered an AR lower it would have to be named, then they put me on hold for a minute then said “Yes your right, it has to be named…” then I asked how dose that effect me if I wanted to make a lower? He didn’t know and transferred me to a voice mailbox. No call back. Keep in mind the guy I talked to told me I could not put a collapsible stock on a FAB10, and that if I bought a lower that was not named I would have to relinquish it and could not register it. Both of those answers were completely rough.
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