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Posted: 4/21/2010 2:25:15 AM EDT
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:26:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?


Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:26:51 AM EDT
Call the Popo and file a report.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:29:45 AM EDT
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:39:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2010 2:41:41 AM EDT by ArmaNotSoLite]
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?


*Cough* looking to sell that M3? Or is it too soon?

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:41:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.

But are they legally considered stolen firearms?
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:44:09 AM EDT
Buddy borrow guns = MASSIVE FAIL
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:44:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PhatForrest:

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.

But are they legally considered stolen firearms?


May have a point there. If the friend tells the cops the guns were gifts the OP might be screwed.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 2:48:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PhatForrest:

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.

But are they legally considered stolen firearms?

It's basically a mess. The answer to that is "maybe". He gave his friend the firearms, and I'm assuming didn't give him a return date. The cops may help him out and they may now. I'm guessing some of that depends on how large a city he's in.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 3:29:32 AM EDT
I am NOT a lawyer but from watching years of my SIL's train-wreck of a life I will give you my take;

If you willingly handed your property to your "friend" without the use or threat of force on his part then he did not steal them. Now the question is what where the conditions on the use of your property. Was it a gift? Was is payment in kind for a debt? Was it short term or long term borrowing for a specified use? Was it collateral for a loan? Unless you have an agreement in writing then a judge is going to have to make some sort of interpretation from both your statements.

Now, add to the equation that these are firearms and that might complicate matters for you or for him or for both of you.

Personally, I would document several attempts to recover your property (certified mail, e-mail records, phone log, witnesses, etc.). Then I would contact the police and notify them that you have legally loaned these firearms to a trusted friend for what you believe to be a legal use on his part but that he is now unable to account for them (provide serial numbers). Then, I would file a claim in Civil Court for the return of your property. Make sure you have a receipts or other proof of ownership of the firearms as well as the documentation of your attempts to retrieve your property and yes I would contact a lawyer.

I am not trying to be a know-it-all so if somebody has better advice please contribute.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 3:31:52 AM EDT
leaving a gun with a girlfriend 30 years ago. who had had some threats from a old flame..and, weeks later breaking up with her, requesting my weapon back, being told to piss off. I called
Travis Co DA asking what to do..

not getting a reasonable answer I called Travis Co, sheriff's office..three times.

didn't get a good answer there either...

finally paid an atty $100, and found it






it was hers..

possession 9/10 of the law
assumed ownership as it was in her house
her calling it a gift
relationship implied joint ownership etc..

not worth the battle as I had no arrows.

kiss your guns goodbye..
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 3:42:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2010 3:42:43 AM EDT by ecgRN]
Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
Buddy borrow guns = MASSIVE FAIL


I borrowed a G19 and a full size 1911 to take my Ma shooting....returned them the next day.

Some folks can't be trusted, others can. You need to decide who's who.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 3:55:09 AM EDT
Send him a demand letter registered mail. In this letter you need to outline the terms and conditions that you lent the fire arms to him, including facts as to the specific make, model, and serial number of the firearms; you need to say that this was a short term loan; the fire arms were to be returned within a specified period of time, and the fact that he has failed to return the firearms; outline the numerous attempts you have made to recover the firearms; you want them back by a specified date; and all contact must be in writing.

If I miss my guess, he will fail to contact you to refute the claim that it was a short term loan. It is my understanding that the failure to respond to claims made in writing (within a reasonable period of time, generally accepted as 10 days) is often accepted as evidence of acceptance of the facts as outlined in the document. The point here is in civil cases, all you need to do is prove a preponderance of the evidence. You will sue for a specific remedy, which will be for the return of your fire arms. Depending on where you live, you will be able to do this in small claims court at a low cost. If the Judge grants you your requested remedy, than now you have an actionable item.

If your friend then says he sold them, you can go after him with teeth, because a court of law has ruled the specifics of the arrangement and you friend defrauded you and sold your property. Who ever bought the fire arms would be out of luck, because you friend did not have title to them and therefore could not have transferred title to the purchaser.

Good Luck.

BTW: I am not a lawyer and this should not be taken as legal advice; but I have been screwed many times and have hired lawyers who did almost this exact sequence of events which resulted in my property being returned and one time for a bonus points criminal charges being filed against the sneaky bastard.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 4:40:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Pita_146:
It's basically a mess. The answer to that is "maybe". He gave his friend the firearms, and I'm assuming didn't give him a return date. The cops may help him out and they may now. I'm guessing some of that depends on how large a city he's in.


Originally Posted By Makarov:
If you willingly handed your property to your "friend" without the use or threat of force on his part then he did not steal them. Now the question is what where the conditions on the use of your property. Was it a gift? Was is payment in kind for a debt? Was it short term or long term borrowing for a specified use? Was it collateral for a loan?


We used to be very good friends and shooting buddies. Loaning him guns before never was an issue. I was going out of town for several weeks and he knew it, and asked about using them for a 3 gun match I was going to miss. The Glock was a backup gun in case his Glock didn't work or broke, whatever during the 3 gun. He doesn't own a shotgun and had used the M3 in a 3 gun match before. The Sig he liked and wanted to just shoot it some. No big deal.

We've had a falling out. Personal issues between us that are irrelevant. He's a good guy. We just see things differently.

I think I'll just call the police and file a report. Give them the make, model, and serial number. What they do with the info, I won't worry to much about. If the guns show up at a Pawn Shop or found on the street, maybe I'll get them back.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 4:41:22 AM EDT
call the police and report the guns, be prepared to prove they are yours, if something were to happen to them, ie stolen, sold, etc, and then used in a crime, they could come back traced to you.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 4:52:41 AM EDT
Break in and steal them back. If you purchased them through FFL's then you should have a papertrail showing your ownership to those serial numbered receivers.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 5:16:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Risk-of-Injury:
Break in and steal them back. If you purchased them through FFL's then you should have a papertrail showing your ownership to those serial numbered receivers.





Link Posted: 4/21/2010 5:45:35 AM EDT
This is a crime. "Theft through conversion" is the term.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 5:49:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By putneyswope:
This is a crime. "Theft through conversion" is the term.


Or stealing by deceit...
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 5:51:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
Originally Posted By PhatForrest:

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.

But are they legally considered stolen firearms?


May have a point there. If the friend tells the cops the guns were gifts the OP might be screwed.


If the OP says they're not gifts, then they're not - at least not without some type of documentation.

Otherwise every theif in history would simply say they were... "gifts."
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 6:02:56 AM EDT
Hey, did I mention the great deal I got on a Benelli last month? Man, $50 seems like a "steal"!

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:30:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RRA_223:
If the OP says they're not gifts, then they're not - at least not without some type of documentation.

Otherwise every theif in history would simply say they were... "gifts."



That would be a good argument for small claims court.

I just don't think that any enforcement agency would touch this one, as far as getting the guns back now, without reporting them stolen.

I watch a lot of Peoples Court.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:34:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?


*Cough* looking to sell that M3? Or is it too soon?



The M3 has already been sold. The OP just doesn't know it yet.

-Z
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:35:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LTBeas:
Originally Posted By putneyswope:
This is a crime. "Theft through conversion" is the term.


Or stealing by deceit...


Prove it
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:37:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By PhatForrest:

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?

This.

But are they legally considered stolen firearms?

It's basically a mess. The answer to that is "maybe". He gave his friend the firearms, and I'm assuming didn't give him a return date. The cops may help him out and they may now. I'm guessing some of that depends on how large a city he's in.


Right answer.

The best starting point is to send him a certified letter requiring him to return your firearms to you by a specific date.

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:38:10 AM EDT
Sad, but time for you to talk to the police.

They could probably just go over there with you when he's home and help you get your guns.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:38:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Risk-of-Injury:
Break in and steal them back. If you purchased them through FFL's then you should have a papertrail showing your ownership to those serial numbered receivers.


That paperwork at the FFL doesn't mean squat other than the OP was the original purchaser (if they were new) - it does not prove ownership in any shape or form.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:40:31 AM EDT
wow

good luck

hate to see generosity bite you in the ass

Never loadned a gun to a friend

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:41:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmaNotSoLite:
Originally Posted By Texas_Infidel:
So I let a buddy borrow some guns. Benelli M3, Sig P229, Glock 17.

We've had a falling out. I want my guns back. He keeps avoiding my calls, emails, and when I go by his house. Its been a few months now. He's out a job, so I don't know if that has anything to do with it. So should I file a police report? Is this civil issue or criminal at this point?


*Cough* looking to sell that M3? Or is it too soon?



yeah I was thinking this, wtf? Right now he's probably in the transition of selling your once owned firearms. Pawnshop anyone?
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:43:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


This. If you gave them to him, you can't claim them stolen, at least in FL. The note would be a good start, and then take it from there by calling the cops if he doesn't comply. They would probably be interested in why he won't give you your firearms back. If it were your patio furniture I'm guessing it would be a different story.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:44:22 AM EDT
Issue a clear ultimatum with the consequences and DOCUMENT IT.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:44:41 AM EDT
You may want to cantact an attourney. They will be able to give you better details then you will find here. Depending on where you live there may be some issues that come back on you. I'd talk to the lawyer before calling the police. Cover your @$$. Here in the peoples republic on NJ you run into some gray areas when loaninng firearms to someone who isn't standing next to you.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:45:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


This. If you gave them to him, you can't claim them stolen, at least in FL. The note would be a good start, and then take it from there by calling the cops if he doesn't comply. They would probably be interested in why he won't give you your firearms back. If it were your patio furniture I'm guessing it would be a different story.


I could see the cops taking the firearms and then your going to have to battle them to get them back. Why in the hell would you loan your freaking guns to someone? Seriously, were you high at the time and if so why in the hell do you own any guns?
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:48:38 AM EDT
I am not a lawyer. Nor do I play one on TV. Even if and when I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express.

Not one to dole out advice, especially like this, but I doubt the police would do anything.

However, they might get involved if you go to them, tell them the story as you told it here, and added that you would like their help as you are afraid your friend may become violent and you are scared he will use borrowed guns against you.

Then police go over, you knock on door, friend opens door, you tell him you are here for your guns, he sees police, he worries, he gives guns back without a fuss.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:48:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:53:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rcoers:
Originally Posted By Risk-of-Injury:
Break in and steal them back. If you purchased them through FFL's then you should have a papertrail showing your ownership to those serial numbered receivers.


That paperwork at the FFL doesn't mean squat other than the OP was the original purchaser (if they were new) - it does not prove ownership in any shape or form.


"Hey, he owed me a thousand bucks that I lent him a couple of months ago. He couldn't pay me back so he gave me the guns and we called it even. Then he comes back here wanting to buy them back and I told him no. So he starts telling everybody I stole them".

Prove it's not true.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:54:35 AM EDT
If he doesnt give em back or respond... Post his info here.. We can Wenzel him like they did on Pirate4x4.com for deal gone bad
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:55:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:57:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dhmjr40:
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.




Ugh. No. Send him a certified letter. You're going to want that signature, not the hearsay of your crayon "warz muh gunz" on a Burger King sack.

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:58:15 AM EDT

report them stolen

call in an anonymous tip

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 8:58:48 AM EDT
You can report the guns stolen. If he has them and they are reported stolen he will be in possession of stolen firearms.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:00:20 AM EDT
Man there's a lot of pieces of shit out there. What kind of person would steal guns like that? I'm assuming only trash.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:03:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jinxsters:
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


This. If you gave them to him, you can't claim them stolen, at least in FL. The note would be a good start, and then take it from there by calling the cops if he doesn't comply. They would probably be interested in why he won't give you your firearms back. If it were your patio furniture I'm guessing it would be a different story.


I could see the cops taking the firearms and then your going to have to battle them to get them back. Why in the hell would you loan your freaking guns to someone? Seriously, were you high at the time and if so why in the hell do you own any guns?


It all depends on your local LE agency. When my friend had an ND with my handgun and shot me in the arm, it took me like 3 weeks to get my gun back and the only reason it happened was because I contacted the deputy who responded to the call on his cell phone and explained the situation and he was PISSED because the gun had been signed off and open for pick-up like two days after I got out of the hospital. I then lost that same gun (I thought about selling it after that incident) by accidentally leaving it on the roof of my car on the way to work one morning when I was in a hurry, somebody turned it in before I called the sheriff's office to report it lost, and I picked it up two days later.

Just those two experiences were vastly different, so it really depends. Some places are great, and others you'll never see them again.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:06:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By Jinxsters:
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


This. If you gave them to him, you can't claim them stolen, at least in FL. The note would be a good start, and then take it from there by calling the cops if he doesn't comply. They would probably be interested in why he won't give you your firearms back. If it were your patio furniture I'm guessing it would be a different story.


I could see the cops taking the firearms and then your going to have to battle them to get them back. Why in the hell would you loan your freaking guns to someone? Seriously, were you high at the time and if so why in the hell do you own any guns?


It all depends on your local LE agency. When my friend had an ND with my handgun and shot me in the arm, it took me like 3 weeks to get my gun back and the only reason it happened was because I contacted the deputy who responded to the call on his cell phone and explained the situation and he was PISSED because the gun had been signed off and open for pick-up like two days after I got out of the hospital. I then lost that same gun (I thought about selling it after that incident) by accidentally leaving it on the roof of my car on the way to work one morning when I was in a hurry, somebody turned it in before I called the sheriff's office to report it lost, and I picked it up two days later.

Just those two experiences were vastly different, so it really depends. Some places are great, and others you'll never see them again.


Get a lanyard. A short one. It may have prevented both of your problems.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:06:59 AM EDT
I doubt the police will do anything, Sounds like something you may have to take up in court.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:07:54 AM EDT
Not theft. You gave them to him. The terms of how, when, or whether they would be returned is in dispute. Thus, a civil dispute.

Send him a registered letter, return receipt requested, demanding the return of the firearms in ten (10) days.

Then sue him, if he doesn't return them.

Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:10:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By Jinxsters:
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Originally Posted By GseriesFal:
I would leave a note on his door giving him 24 hours to contact you and make arrangements to get your guns back or you will call the police.


This. If you gave them to him, you can't claim them stolen, at least in FL. The note would be a good start, and then take it from there by calling the cops if he doesn't comply. They would probably be interested in why he won't give you your firearms back. If it were your patio furniture I'm guessing it would be a different story.


I could see the cops taking the firearms and then your going to have to battle them to get them back. Why in the hell would you loan your freaking guns to someone? Seriously, were you high at the time and if so why in the hell do you own any guns?


It all depends on your local LE agency. When my friend had an ND with my handgun and shot me in the arm, it took me like 3 weeks to get my gun back and the only reason it happened was because I contacted the deputy who responded to the call on his cell phone and explained the situation and he was PISSED because the gun had been signed off and open for pick-up like two days after I got out of the hospital. I then lost that same gun (I thought about selling it after that incident) by accidentally leaving it on the roof of my car on the way to work one morning when I was in a hurry, somebody turned it in before I called the sheriff's office to report it lost, and I picked it up two days later.

Just those two experiences were vastly different, so it really depends. Some places are great, and others you'll never see them again.


Get a lanyard. A short one. It may have prevented both of your problems.


The friend issue is solved, I don't talk to him anymore. The lost gun issue happened because I changed my routine of getting in the car. I normally open the door, put everything in it, start it, and then put on a jacket if I have one, etc. then get inside and close the door. This time I put the pistol case and my jacket on the roof, opened door, started the car, put on my jacket, jumped in and took off because I was running short on time to get there. I'm just glad it got turned in that same day... It bothered me for a long time that I'd forget something that important, but thankfully nothing bad came of it except a dented front sight.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:12:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By floridahunter07:
Just those two experiences were vastly different, so it really depends. Some places are great, and others you'll never see them again.



I'd be tempted to get rid of that motherfucker before something really serious happens.
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:13:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2010 9:21:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
Buddy borrow guns = MASSIVE FAIL


+1,000,000,000

Your buddy should have his own guns. (Well he does now, but... )

The only person that I ever lend one of my guns to is my Dad. But then when he wants to borrow one he is going for a walk on the property & it never leaves, but I would trust him (& only him) to take it elsewhere.
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