I was hoping to get some perspective from others who are more educated than myself to help me understand whether my current beliefs are compatible with my Christian faith.

This is about evolution and creation and whether the two are compatible with each other. I'm going to keep the explanation of my understanding of creation very, very, short, just enough to get the idea across so I don't end up writing 10 paragraphs on the subject.

Basically, I believe in creation as described in Genesis. I also believe in evolution as described by science. If biblical scholars place the date of creation to be around 6000 years ago I agree with that, but I also believe at the same time that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old.  I have always believed that when God created the heavens and the earth He also simultaneously created all of the history and scientific principles that go along with His creation. His work was done in 6 days, and this work was complete with billions of years of history. When God made a creature, say a fish, He created it exactly in the image He intended it to be, and part of that creature is all of the millions of years of history and steps (evolution) which would have been required for it to become a part of the physical universe which He also created. In my view, the big bang, carbon dating, and dinosaurs don't disprove creation, they are a part of it.

I hope that's enough to get across my overall philosophy. I'm not trying to re-write Genesis or put words in the Bible's mouth, so-to-speak.  I like to think that these ideas are compatible with the Bible as written, just not specifically set forth and explained.

Do these ideas fit with Christianity? Are there others who have a similar view on creation?

It depends entirely on what you call Christianity. There are some people who identify themselves as Christian who believe as you do, but your view wouldn't fit into the conservative orthodox Christian worldview.

You have to look at time. With the physical laws that we belive in, if the world was "created" 6000 years ago, time would flow both forward and backwards. Just because we view time in one direction, that doesn't mean that's how time works.

Just a thought:  When God created Adam most likely he wasn't a child but rather a man, let's say 20.  So then, God created Adam to look like he was much older than he actually was.  Using this theory the Earth could have been created to look much older than it was as well, yet possessing all the "evolution" history it took to get to that point.

I see no reason why this conflicts with the core principle of Christianity, or for that matter, any principles. To me this sounded like a well thought out argument. Who is it to limit an all-powerful God to their understanding of how God's creation took place. We already know that God transcends time. Why limit Him? He most certainly could have created the world with all in place as you have said 6000 years ago. Or He could have created natural laws to bring about his creation through a longer process according to a human perspective on time.

IMHO, this is a (somewhat) peripheral argument that divides a lot pf people and it really shouldn't. The main issues lie with Jesus. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in you heart God raised him from the dead...

In the beginning God Created"....that part to me is clear....just how is happened and what took place we may never know this side of eternity.
I have no problem believing that God could do it in 6 literal 24 hour days......I don't believe that being adamant about the "how it was done"...is as important as trusting in "The One Who done it."


One of the biggies for me is the fact that The Bible states that there was no death and suffering before the fall ...that Creation was perfect....God said it was good.
Its hard for me to see the current model of evolution and its imperfect death and suffering and tie that into a completed work.
We don't see Jesus demanding sinners place their faith in the Genesis account of Creation( though he does mention Jonah) we do see Jesus telling sinners to place their faith and trust in Him.
We also see Him walking on water and raising the dead which show us that He is not bound to the laws of Nature as we understand them....which should be a no brainier because he was God in the flesh and said that he was before the world began.

Whatever one believes one thing is clear...nature and creation no matter the angle we view them from are simply astounding miracles and the product of The intelligent Designer.

I often thought about this. Interesting though.

Just think the correct answer has not been foud yet. Keeping with Gods nature, He is not the author of confusion
1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Hence we still have all of our thoughts on the subject. Most silly is the billions of years old.

The time element can be discussed. We are seeing a timeline with a significant event happening
every 2000 years. First, there was creation and the Garden of Eden. 2000 years later was
Noah's Ark and the flood. 2000 years after that Jesus was born. According to our calendar
and understanding of time, we are at another 2000 year mark, for a total of 6000 years plus or minus.
We don't know for sure how long the six days to create the earth actually was. To God, a day is
a thousand years and a thousand years a day. Man came on the scene on day six
and used to live a very long time, hundreds of years. The oldest recorded was Methusela.
Then the flood. I don't remember where it is written, but the flood marked a shift in time apparently.
Man didn't live near as long. The point is, those first six days as we read them may have been a lot longer
than a 24 hour day. I think they were.

I would not say that your views are incompatible with Christianity, as I don't believe the specifics of creation are essential Christian doctrine.  I like the way you think.

Speaking for myself only, however, I would say that your views aren't quite compatible with my understanding of the nature of God, as I personally don't think He would create something with a deceptive appearance of age.  So, I believe that the world is actually several billion years old, and that evolution was the mechanism of creation.  That, of course, leads to a couple of interesting theological analogies and implications (as well as probably being further out of the mainstream than your views!), but those are probably unrelated to this thread specifically.

This was a very insightful post and you make a great point. We don't know how time works, time is one of those phenomenon that science has yet to adequately describe.

Well, I believe that there indeed is what some would call an,''evolutionary,'' process going on in the world as the scientific community as large would have it, but maybe not exactly in the fashion that this process has been detailed by them.

That is, the secular humanistic views concerning such.

The earth, that is, our earth, stated this way because God from the time He made the first man, the one the Bible calls,''Adam,'' and gave this man and all who would come after him, that is Adam, the one who God allowed to distinctly name all animal life in His presence, dominion over the world to subdue it according to God's own word concerning this.

However as it may be though, the world and everything in it belongs to the LORD of Hosts in any event, as the Bible makes no doubt about this Biblical fact as being true.

As for the creative process concerning the world, I too believe that the world is older than six-thousand years and some change, so to speak.

Now, unlike some others who frequently post here, I may not have quite the educational background that others may have when trying to decipher this subject from a scientific, rated, or college degreed, particular point of view.

But still, as a reasonably stable and intellegent Christian person, I have had to at times rely soley on the Spirit of God, and through that same word, or the Bible, coupled with God's enhancing power directed at me to help me get to the truth about all matters, which in some instances according to the subject matter at hand, might take a little longer for me to grasp and retain than I would like.

But all in God's good timing, don't you know!

One of the reasons as I have stated on another thread here recently about one of the reasons that I feel that the earth is older than the literal Biblical account in Genesis, is because if the earth is as you say, approxamatly, 4.6 billion years old, then according to what we know today, that is scientifically, then that would have put us in a very different place back then.

That is, if ''back there,'' is actually where we have arrived from.

So what happened, many light years away from where it is that we are located within our own particular galaxy now?

What is the particular relationship that we have now with our universe in regards to that relationship according to the spreading out of the universe back at that point of initial creation, and then being injected along by God on a certain trajectory, or even many different other trajectories?

And what were the reasons for moving through those places at particular intervals and velocities, in the first place?

Could it be that this happened this way for the purpose of certain refinements through heating and different kinds of pressure fluxuations as it relates to the earth's particular syncronicity schematic as a partical satilite within a much larger collective of the cosmos?

What are these other bodies in a strict relationship to planet earth then and now?

And how does this relate and then authenticate to the dispensation of chronos time here on this earth at the present, or even back then at a particular point of reference concerning the ordered events that it took to create the world in stages?

And still too, with the unknown universe continually being moved and projected out through ever deepening space through some sort of  vast energy expansion transfer in all directions, according to its own width and breadth state of being, potentially unending within itself.

That is, in the universe, as a completed set of objects in a the vacum of its own space?

So then, will man ever be able to reconcill all of this data accurately as to account for it?

Well, i must somewhat admit in the here of now, that i do have my doubts more than just over very general, and loosely based scientifically related assertions concerning such.

Now, the Bible states that there was during the creation process intervals of light and darkness,''evening, and then morning, the first day,'' as per the Genesis account of a one day period.

However, this does not mean that,evening, and then morning, the first day,'' or any of those other six days during the creative process were in fact a twenty-four hour chronos time like period as we might understand chronographical earth time at the present.

Where we are though as a planet,that is earth, is located now in the proximity of our own sun is approxamatly 92.9 million miles away from us right now, give or take a few hundred miles.

Now, it takes 365.26 days in order for the earth to make one revolution aroud the sun, again that's 92.9 million miles away.

But now if you take another planet in our own solar system, say Uranus, a little farther away from the sun than we are, then we will find some differences concerning time as we might understand it here on earth.

On Uranus for example, this particular planet is much farther away from the sun than we here on earth are. Uranus is located farther out at 1783.8 million miles from the sun. Additionally, it takes the planet Uranus approxamatly 84.01 years to make a single revolution around the sun, a star, of an infinite number of other stars.

Now, if my own MIL, who was born in 1924, and who is still living today, would have been born and lived all her life on that planet, then she would at the present,be  just over one year old right now there, as opposed to 86 years old right here on planet earth right now.

That is, if man's chronographical time would be applicable to this particular place, and if Uranus were able to sustain human life as we know it here.

Also, we don't really know, say if the earth is billions of years old, as opposed to only mere few thousand, or how large or how small the earth was in the begining of the creative process, and would that condition have made a difference in our own timing of it, a large number of aons ago.

And was there back at the time, or direct interval of the creative process a simular line-up of what we have now with the other planets in relation to the planet earth?

That being, the way that our own solar system is generally configured today, with the rest of the cosmos that has been syncronized to it for its own stability to sustain live as we as humans percieve it generally.

Could the earth have been in a much different location than it is now because needed to be there so that issues concerning say the atmopheric and oceanic conditions here on earth could attain different mean temperatures and barometric pressures placed upon it,maybe for the purpose of stabilizing it so that it would sustain life at on point?

Who knows really how this all happened though exept the Spirit of God, who called all of these things into existance with no one greater to rely upon concerning creation exept Himself?

And this too is why many choose not to believe in Him.

Through unwarranted arrogance and ignorant estimations through the current scientific method that does not allow for God.

But however how it is that some may feel at the present about there being no living and creative God who is responsible for all, then I say just hang around a little bit longer.

It is a fact that He, that would be God, in the form of Jesus Christ will show Himself soon to everyone.

Even to the few, the proud, and the secular.

The equitorial diameter in miles concerning planet earth is 7,928 land miles.

But again, if we take a look at the planet Uranus for example, then we see that this planet is quite a bit larger in its own equitorial diameter in approxamate land miles.

About 31,800 land miles.

So does the size of a planet make a difference according to a marked time differential?

Now, there might be some who may say that all of the planets in our own solar system were in place and stabilized by the time that the God-Head went forth to create and was creating. But however it was back then, we must or at least should know that when God goes about in the eternal realm doing anything, then God already has a determined plan, or scheme, which always manifests in the eternal realm first.

Because God speaks it out from its humble beginings, right until its very end, because His voice never fades out as a human being's does physically in thr realm of time.

But eternally where God is, and there is no chronographical time in this realm of the eternal, only a continuum that twists and warps and blends back into itself.

You know, off the charts, so to speak, for many to understand, like me.

So, I believe in light of these things, and in the way that the world was created in many different and varying phases,that's mineral, vegatable, and then animal, with the adaptations that they were subjected to by many variable factors such as what we estimate now concerning inner-earth tutonic plate studies and even according to much archeological evidence over time that seems to indicate that the earth on the very inside of what scientists believe the age of the world truly is, would still put the earth's approxamate age at around 200 million years old or so.

This minumim estimated elapsation of time though, would or could only be validated scientifically, that is, according to man's chronographical way of measuring time between intervals of the earth's historical record of events.

And it is a fact also, as it were, that during the initial stages and continuing largest portions of development concerning the construction of the earth, and all that is contained therein, that man had not come into a state of being yet.

And the way that it appears to me now, not discounting God prepairing the whole of all other creation for Him and us, as a living testament as to God's own unlimited abilities through His own will, i'm almost sure there would have been more than just a few who might have attempted to give God a few pointers and opinions of their own about how God did it, and still does it today.

That is, just how that God skillfully, and also artfully and wonderfully, created all through His magnificent voice to call up matter with, and then with His strong loving hands to finish with His own tell-tale signature upon all creation.

Laboring for us.

God does.

Thanks,

SAE

I some times wonder how people think in terms of billions of years. Here is the question to ask just one of many. How is evolution possible the rotation of the earth on it axis was about 18 hour day (1 billion years ago). As the spinning of the earth slows does the enviorment on earth change? I would say yes. Would life as we know have been possible just even 500million years ago.

1 billion years ago the moon was 50 percent closer to earth than it is know how tall do you think the ocean tiders were then.
500 million years ago when the moon is 25 percent closer still very strong effect on climate and tides.

The moon is about 238,900 miles (384,000 km) from Earth on average. At its closest approach (the lunar perigee) the moon is 221,460 miles (356,410 km) from the Earth. At its farthest approach (its apogee) the moon is 252,700 miles (406,700 km) from the Earth.

The Moon's orbit is expanding over time as it slows down (the Earth is also slowing down as it loses energy). For example, a billion years ago, the Moon was much closer to the Earth (roughly 200,000 kilometers) and took only 20 days to orbit the Earth. Also, one Earth 'day' was about 18 hours long (instead of our 24 hour day). The tides on Earth were also much stronger since the moon was closer to the Earth.

Well, depending on your version of Christianity, it may or may not be compatible.  Your explanation would have God being deceptive, and I have a problem with that.



As a Catholic, I don't have a problem with some theories of evolution as long as they hold to certain things:

1) God created everything

2) We have one set of first parents (science is actually showing that we descended from one woman - mitochondrial DNA)

3) at some point, God gave man a soul.



Keep in mind that Genesis was first an oral teaching to the Hebrews wandering through the desert to help them understand just why they were in the predicament they were in.  The two creation accounts in Genesis were not necessarily told to the Hebrews to teach how God created everything - as those who hold to a literalist interpretation would argue - but why God created everything and what man's place is in that creation.



First creation account:  God created everything else first, culminating in the pinnacle of His creation –– Man.  This teaches man's special place in God's creation and in His plan.



Second creation account:  God created man first and then created all other creatures to teach that all of creation was created for man.  Woman was created separately to teach us that man and woman are complementary to each other and need each other (hence the very next line "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife...")



 

I like to use the billards table analogy. Say the universe is a pool table. God creates the universe at 8:00am, and at the moment of creation the 8-ball is rolling across the table from the front left pocket to the rear right pocket at 5 mph. using the physical laws we know, velocity, mass, friction of the ball across the felt, etc., we can infer where the ball was at 7.59am. Even though that is technically before the moment of creation, it doesn't matter. Nothing is ever still, when God created the universe, sub-atomic particles were spinning around (I assume.) If you create a world in motion with the physical laws we observe today, then you can construct the past.

How would an 18 hour day preclude "life as we know it?"



Incorrect.... the moon is receding at about 3.8 cm per year.A little quick math shows that one billion years ago, the moon was about 38,000 km closer to the Earth.  With an average disatance to the moon today of 384,000, the moon was only about 10% closer.

Our nunbers differ,because the religion of science is a matter of interpetation. Not any different than religion today. Just a matter of what you believe is true.

If your numbers are differnt, post 'em up.  

Also, science is NOT a religion, in that it doesn;t involve belief in a diety, or any other supernatrual element.  It's strictly about the evidence of the natural world.  As such, it does not preclude a religion.  In fact, it has no opinion on relgion at all, unless a religion makes a specific scientific claim that can be tested with the evidence, such as the age of the Earth, or the origin of species. In such a case it is not the science which has a problem with the relgion, it's the religion that has problem with the evidence. I use the scientific method, becuase it works, as these computers we're typing on attest to. It produces real, tangible results.

If you'd been cleverer, you might have pointed out that the recession rate is non-linear and liked to tidal friction (which is true... my linear simplification is not 100% accurate) . However if you'd have looked that far, you would have found that the argument you made was baseless (the rate of recession was SLOWER in times past), and we wouldn't be here...

How is this known ?

But today the number can be observed directly, as a result of three-corner mirrors left behind by Apollo astronauts. Lunar laser ranging establishes the current rate of retreat of the moon from Earth at 3.82±0.07 cm/year

This rate of 3.82 cm/yr is not a a constant number. As science keeps changing its story, depends at on what point in history you pull your information.

The closer an object is to the earth (and other planets) to more force to earths gravity is able to impart onto it. Therefore, the closer an object is to the earth the more it is attracted and thus the slower is moves away. The farther it gets away, the less force gravity has and the faster it can move away.

This is true for lots of things in space, comets, asteroids, etc. They slow when they approach big bodies of mass. Kinda cool.

Good Morning Hoody,

I'm glad your in on this one.

Pertaining to these other heavenly objects that slow when entering into an area where that other gravitational forces affect these: is it your own personal opinion that these have any effects on other satillites, or even other objects simular to themselves as it relates to maintaining or adjusting certain elements of the cosmos, in order to fine tune, so to speak,as a collective set and inter-dependant, concerning primarily the orbits, through certain gravitational pulling forces and other factors, that these come to bear upon each other, as to have at least a inter-galactic impact, one upon another?

Also scientifically, what is the current hypothosis concerning my question?

Are most all planets and planitoid type objects, inter-dependant to a certain degree upon each other?

I'm assuming to some extent that they are.

Thanks in advance for your imput.

SAE.

Red- Absolutely. The effect of gravitation is found all the way up to and beyond galaxies. The SHAPE of galaxies is determined because of the effect that gravitation has on all the little bits and pieces within a galaxy. Also, galaxies can shape other galaxies because of the gravitational pull between galaxies.


Blue- You bet. The earths orbit, tides, wobble, etc are all effects of gravitational forces imparted on earth from other bodies.

I am very curious how religion will look in the next 100 years based mostly on the points you're making. It feels like science is progressing to a point where even the most devout religious followers are having a hard time ignoring scientific findings.

I have no doubt that there will always be those that refuse to except science into their religious lives, but I wonder what the AVERAGE Christian will look like in 100 years? What will the bible mean to them? With the advances yet to come in all the major hard science fields (Biology, Chemistry, Physics)i it will test peoples faith, there's no doubt. I don't think we have even scratched the surface of what the study of DNA will bring us.

Thanks.

Do these effects as you have listed also have other effects say, one galaxy upon another, as far as one being dominate over another,as to one galaxy being able to incorporate with another, or even several at one point, making a larger super-type galactic body?

If so, is this an orderly incorporation or process, or a seemingly chaotic one?

SAE

I know galaxies can merge, but I'm not sure about any dominance or anything. They also have other effects on each other like starbursts (an explosion of star production). I also don't know anything about large super galaxies.

I'm not sure about the process of galaxies merging. It's probably random chance when two galaxies become close enough to merge, but the merger process would follow physical laws. Much the same as chemical reactions between molecules in a fluid. It's random chance when they meet, but a very ordered process when they react.

Well, these are quite valid points that I certainly believe that every Christian should first contemplate or meditate about, and then start to understand as I believe that the Spirit of God would have all Christians to know about all things, that being the truth about creation, and much farther beyond that even though creation encompasses all and is everywhere,even fully being about our own bodies and what is spiritually in them.

Now having said that, you may or may not know that there are some Christians who seem to me that will show some aprehension, even fear in some cases, as to gaining a deeper understanding of some of these things which you have just stated about.

That is, having the personal ability through even scientific information to reconcill their own personal beliefs with reasonable human accuracy, as it concerns creation not being quite what they personally see,that is, lining up with the Scriptures as a whole, that is, if that Christian person fully understood the Scriptures, as a whole, in relation to where God Himself, is making a maximum effort here in order to lead incomplete people away from one place, or places, and then over into a completely different area,thus by God, thus through power.

You see, there are certain religious denominations who would read some of these postings here, like you and I are posting at the present, and feel as if I myself, a born-again Christian follower of Jesus Christ, would not in fact be a christian at all by their own standards,but now one who is activly blaspheming God' s holy word, or the Christian Bible, for starter's as the Bible relates to the general literal Christian message concerning many things.

Some,''Christians,'' believe that if a person takes only one seemingly literal point away from the Bible, that is, without their express permission to do so, what would normally be of a certain general context to them,that may be in reality out of context with the written word of God Itself, then this makes the one that may be willfully engaging in such of an activity as this, you know like incorporating so-called,'' scientific evidence,'' with Biblical Scriptures wrong and even sacreligious activity in some religious circles.

To them, a damning and unforgivable offense toward God.

And even by some of these doing this sort of thing towards myself as for example, I might then because of their religious dogma that I believe that they have,''religiously,'' and unwisely authored for a man-made purpose as God's unadulterated truth about God's message to all people,under certain circumstances, might say the same thing about them.

Because God,'' hates,'' for the lack of better human description concerning God's own emotions, all those who love and practice telling lies concerning God's message as a written legal document concerning His complete state of righteousness and ultimate intentions.

And without genuine repentance and forgivness through Christ, a damning and unforgivable offense toward God as to a supreme reckoning by God, and that is Christ, concerning it.

Many Christians do now though, and even more as time rolls along.

Much in the same way that the Christian scientific community has done even pre-dating the Darwinist theories concerning the evolutionary process concerning secular science, although Mr. Darvin is not the forerunner, or founder, of it.

However, I do believe and have come to a certain point in my own Christian walk, that enables me to look at and view all of the evidence concerning anything with all of the available means that we have been given.

And furthermore, I believe like this because that, I Jim,a spirit man first, and then a natural man second,strongly feel that God, Himself, has put at my own personal disposal, as one who really does have a hunger to know the truth about all matters, to put my own faith in here and trust God in whatever direction that He will lead me, that is, having a direct bearing concerning solid evidence according to where God has lead me already.

A vast and eternal continuum to travel about in as I always truly have, as an, ''unending'', born of God, spiritual being with no particular physical leanage exept for the one that God choose particularly for me to be incorporated with and for a reason.

And that reason is service. just like Jesus Christ did, as an example and master pattern to be promoted by.

With my own agreement and personal willingness towards participation about, as an assignment

From the,''Beginning,'' borne from a personal relationship with Him as being part of God, by right of birth, and position of undertaking from a state of free-will submission toward Him as being spiritually blind at the point of natural child-birth as we all are, and as Jesus Christ,or God in the flesh was also.

As everyone else has and will continue to be, until the end for man has finally arrived and at that appointed hour.

And if this is so,then I feel that this is an acceptable route for me to undertake by God, through the study of certain subject matter  that may, or may not contain any religious material in it, or about it at all, or the ramifications of such material, due to its own content and scope about anything that may be considered to be,''non-religious,'' in nature according to its own literal label, or distinguishing marks about itself.

Now, this however does not mean that I will study anything and everything that the world system might make available to me,especially concerning some material that I have already quite covered before becoming a much more dedicated individual with God.

And if I am to be successfull in all these endeavors to know, understand, and then at one point to became wise by, or about, for a specific purpose latter on,that is to correctly glorify God by doing or presenting such, and then through God's Spirit, or my own personal,''Teacher,'' as it is, then I must make some earnest attempts concerning the setting up, so to speak, this condition, or supernatural enhancement, which allows for God to supernaturally teach me many, or all things.

And here are the exact pre-qualifications that I must adhere to on a large personal scale, that will allow God to lift me, or anyone else, into an elevated supernatural state of set apart learning and understanding that no man has the opportunity of undertaking without these godly attributes coming together as a collective agency for higher learning.

These are:

1) Love-unselfish loyal and benvolent concern for others:All*

2) Honor-outward integrity and repect shown:All*

3 ) Peace-an active state of concord as between persons or governments:All*

4) Justice-the administration of law through fairness:All*

5) Graciousness-marked by kindness and courtesy;mercy:All*

6) Righteousness-conforming to truth or fact:All*

7) Eternal Life-life consisting of an infinite duration:Everlasting*

In other words, the *Seven Spirits of God*

And this is what it will personally take, and sustained by the Spirit,which is eternal, to fully understand about all things according to all created matierals that God created and continues to create from the Alphfa to the Omega undefined state of understanding.

A process, and scientific in It's own nature and also according to It's own scope of combined operations, because of certain chemical reactions and radiant energy transfers that do in fact occurr within these stated and fully manifest conditions.

In all stages, especially in high output to peak operating structure.

Thanks,

SAE

I think what science is finding out is that creation is intelligent design. Creation by design and order.

I disagree, but you never know.

On that point of yours though, if that's true and you feel we are studying something like intelligent design, at what point do we break away from the bible and it's wording about creation? Or will it ever happen?

With advances in science I think you're going to see many more questions like the OP has here. Science could take us to the big bang and beyond, but you could always say that God is just beyond that. However, then what happens to the text of the bible that science has negated (hypothetically)?

As i have posted before the problem science has is 0+0=0 You can not create something from nothing. What is created is intelligent design. The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Psalms 19:1  
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Your creation story is one of many.
Your religious text is one of many.
Your God is one of many.
God could not have come from nothing (by your own statement).

The point that the OP is making, while maybe not on purpose, is that as science progresses a simple book is no longer going to be enough. Especially when something like science comes along with something which contradicts said book, and reveals something you can actually see with your own eyes. Only the most stubborn of people will ignore it. The same stubborn people of whom try to tell me that it's their god, and not Zeus.

Please give me one contradiction in the bible.  By the way my question for you is how does something come from nothing. Science will never answer that question.

Interesting point Hoody.

So then, what happens to the text of the Bible that science might negate in the future because of certain findings latter on, as well as many within the scientific community who are activly nagating a superior being at the present,just as many have done from this same community in the past, about the existance of God, as the ultimate Creator of all things?

I heard last week at a major university, that a tenured professor in their science department was more or less, badgering students about the very existance of God, a supreme Creator.

And moreover than that, this person was being very agressive toward his students, even challanging anyone within his class to stand and give their own personal accounting about just why that someone would be,''stupid,'' enough to believe in such a falacy as a God, any God, in the first place, in lue of current scientific discoveries.

Now, as I understand this issue, no one stood up and refuted this learned gentleman's remarks about his own atheistic veiws because of certain negitave reprisals concerning the christian students attending that class for the obvious reason of the proffessor having the power and authority to pass, or fail a student in any event.

Now again, as I understand this issue what the professor was doing in light of current federal laws in place, was operating concerning his own personal views in quite a legal gray area here, so to speak, concerning violating someone's own personal civil rights in connection to what he was saying about the non-existance of a god, mainly posed at students, some who do consider themselves to be christians who study there, under this particular type of circumstance.

Bullying.

Now I'm certainly not saying that all of the science professors that are currently employed by most any university in the United States are activly participating in bashing the christian religion as this particular gentle man seemed to be doing with his own students.

However as it may be though,I believe that this is, to a certain extent a real problem within our universities, and higher institutions of learning at the present time.

These particular christian views are in my opinion for the most part broadly religious based, and in most cases,brought about in a totally unscientific view of the proponderance of the evidence that has been made available by science, even if some of the scientific evidence may contain certain flaws and even some erronious statements concerning what I consider to be Biblical facts.

As a Christian in cases such as this though, then the Holy, or set apart for service and education,Spirit, should be utillized and come into play here to diciper, and then clarify any errors through any faith based study concerning scientific data, or any other kind of information submitted to Him for His own disposition of all information submitted, for He is a person, the working base of operations, general, as well as specialized, of the GodHead also.

Now, through this particular medium, I have deduced as a truth, that there are no major accounting errors that would preclude the Genesis account of the Bible, to be in any way not consistant with the general scientific views according to the discovery and proliferation of all animal and plant existance, as a suppoting member base of a vast and complex food chain, which occurred several millions of years ago here on planet earth.

Moreover, I also find that the order of animal life purpotredly created by God, sometime after the the''Beginning,'' in the Genesis record, corrosponds directly with the formation of all animal life and their particular order of existance identified,  according to their discovery and movement through the general fossil record and through the scientific dating means currently available.

Not to say though, that some errors do exist when attempting to scientifically gauge these time periods with an extreme level of accuracy.

But, what I am saying here is that generally, that the Biblical accounting of God's creative works according to the Genesis accounting of the Christian Bible text, as well as other certain prophetic Biblical accounts does reconcill Itself with the most generally accepted scientific views that are currently available today as a scientific theory.

In no way however, am I actively convinced at this time concerning the accuracy or validity of some scientific views concerning the evolutionary process in general, as I feel at the present that some these particular types of views have been and are politically motivated by some who by their own admission do not believe in the existance of God, through the scientific method, for the reasons of social change as it relates to population control, and other measures lawfully in place now, which also in my own reasoning places such activity as this, outside of the realm of science as a study.

Thanks,

SAE.    

I wasn't talking about contradictions within the bible, I was talking about scientific evidence that contradicts the bible; like creation vs. big bang.

I don't know how something comes from nothing. There is a lot of thought among scientists that says the universe may actualy be cycling, i.e. it expands and contracts. The energy just always was. Other thoughts lead to quantum mechanics, a place were all the physics and chemistry we think we know break down and form their own rules. Maybe there is something there that explains the formation of energy from nothing, who knows, we dont have all the answers yet.

Did you claim that science can not answer that question implying that your religion can? How do you explain something coming from nothing? Does your religion already give you all the answers and is that why you believe?

I actually think that the professor you mentioned above was in bad taste. There is a time and place for religious discussions, and it seems as though he picked a poor one.

I guess as an outsider I have a hard time seeing how someone could read Genesis and feel like this fits with our current understand of an event like the big bang. You mention that you feel there are no accounting errors, but how can a 7 day creation fit with the 13 billion years old universe and the millions of years of evolution?

I generally feel that Christians except the bible to be true to every word, and maybe that's true for some, but not a neccesity?

double post

What about the time frame? Seven days for creation vs. billions of years.

Well Hoody, it is not that the Bible stands in error about Its own creation story.

It is how the general Christian based community has generally interpeted what a one day period actually was according to the Bible's own accounting of it.

You see, I believe that also a relevent factor concerning all this is that in Genesis chapter one, verse 2, states that,''Now the earth was formless and empty(at the point where God began to create the sky and the earth), and darkness covered the surface of the watery depths.''

Now also in verse two, the Bible goes on further to state that,''and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.''

Now, just because the Bible states that the earth was formless with some translations stating that it was,''void,'' the Bible still accounts for there being a certain state of being concerning its own existance at that stage of development during the creative process.

Void only in the sense that the earth was unoccuppied or vacant concerning it being an inhabitable celestial body at that point of its creation.

That is, formless as to the shape and size that it is today or has been,but initially formed as a layed out or layered out elemental unconstituted pattern, for the express purpose of construction itself.

That is, for more than one hundred fundamental substances to incorporate to form during this portion of this process.

So by all accounts according to this Biblical passage concerning the,''Beginnig,'' the creation of the earth, to a certain extent the earth was already in some form of a state of being before God ever called, or positioned it where the current sun is now which the earth experiances on many levels is now in direct relation to it.

It is this time period that has, according to the vast amounts of time that could have elapsed in the heavens, and I believe most certainly did, as a creative process, that also understood from the mathmatical/scientific data about such now currently available to us, that we as humans could possibly percive this interval of action as to equate to millions, even billions of years worth of chronographical time lapsation during this period.

Between the history of the earth being what the Bible states as it being,''formless,'' but still in a premature elemental state of being until,''light,'' was provided according to the situation, I do believe that there is an accounting of time according to the reconcilliation of a time frame concerning both within, a certain ballpark figure, so to speak,of time lapsation here, which would make even loose reconcilliation between the two quite possible and even likely as a high end estimation of actual time that had lapsed during the total process of the creation of the earth itself.

Also as stated previously, I believe that the so-called,''Big Bang,'' event is not necessarily the same event as God positioning our own sun relative to where it is located now, during the arrangement of the universe when He said through the Genesis account,''Let there be light,'' as it relates to,''evening and then morning, the first day.''

However, even if it didn't happen in this particular way still the chronographical earth time lapse that it would have taken in order for God to speak into existance one form of light from another as from the universe, from its own conception from that particular location, and then develop it to the point where God actively and thus not passively created the earth as to its finish, then this chronographical time lapse would likely still be based on aons upon multible aons of chronographical time lapsation as we know and understand it now.

That is, rather than only a few thousand years or so, as many Christians still believe it to be that way right now.

As for the time elapse period also between these two very different inner-space episodes, I believe that this could have possibly come about only to be measured in periods according to light year time travel and could account for several billions, or even trillions of years is more of a true estimate of the length of time between these two periods, or events which occurred.

That is, relative to the the,''Big Bang'' of creation and the eventual formation of the earth's sun as in a relation to it where it is currently positioned today.

Thanks,

SAE

 

Uh oh, here's comes a big ol' theological can of worms...

There is a difference in claiming that the Bible is completely true, and in claiming that the Bible is completely true and contains no metaphor or passages open to interpretation.

The current buzzwords seem to be 'infallible,' meaning that the Bible is completely true and conveys its intended meaning, although the intended meaning may not be literal; and 'inerrant,' meaning that the Bible is completely true as strictly and literally interpreted.  Better terminology might be the older 'limited' vs 'complete' inerrancy, as that points to the difference without the possibility of parties talking past each other, missing the special definitions of inerrant and infallible in the context of the discussion.

To use the example we are discussing: someone who believes in complete inerrancy could hold that the message of the Genesis account was a literal, six-day creation.  On the other hand, someone who believes in limited inerrancy/infallibility could hold that the message of the Genesis account was simply that God created the world - the details are less important, and could include the current scientific consensus that the universe is exceedingly old and that evolution was the mechanism of creation of the diversity of life.

(As an aside, in any case, certainly things weren't going on the way we know them today - the sun isn't even created until the 'fourth' day in the Genesis 1 account (something which these days is fairly critical in having an 'evening' and a 'morning'), and the order of creation differs between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.  To me, at least, that's a tip that some metaphor is being used and some interpretation required - that more is being conveyed, in other words, than a mere step-by-step 'how to make a universe.')

Now, both positions have pros and cons.  Speaking in huge generalities: the complete inerrancy camp all too often finds itself in the position of defending itself against or rejecting various academic disciplines (which, incidentally, may be engaging in more or less good scholarship, or may find themselves more or less influenced by various agendas, but that's beside the point), but generally has the advantage of a firm theological foothold as one is unlikely to go wrong in crucial theological issues interpreting scripture literally.  The limited inerrancy/infallibility camp (into which I fall) has a somewhat better time in academic discussions but is more prone to theological failings, particularly if its members are less than honest with themselves concerning their reasons for believing a given scripture is open to interpretation.

Ultimately, I think the answer to some of the questions above about the changes in Christianity in response to further scientific discoveries are going to involve a widespread shift in the proportions of those in the above camps.  I think that is necessary - I think that Christianity thrives when stripped to its core gospel and is in danger of withering when extraneous beliefs are grafted onto it as 'essential' - when 'heavy loads' are put on people's shoulders by their would-be teachers.  But at the same time, I pray the process can happen without the Church losing its soul, because opening up wide swathes of scripture to interpretation that heretofore have been regarded as absolutely literal is a perilous undertaking.

It takes a lot of faith to believe in the religion of science. Because it is man trying to understand the mind of God and His creation. That which is finite the ability of sae to understand is confined between two holes in the side of your head. One must remember, what science once taught as fact just 30 years ago is laughable today. As the scriptures point out mans ego (pride). EGO meaning Edging God Out
Job 40:1-19  
1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."
6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
7 "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me:
8 "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
9 Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
10 Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, And array yourself with glory and beauty.
11 Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.
12 Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place.
13 Hide them in the dust together, Bind their faces in hidden darkness.
14 Then I will also confess to you That your own right hand can save you.
15 "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you; He eats grass like an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his hips, And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17 He moves his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18 His bones are like beams of bronze, His ribs like bars of iron.
19 He is the first of the ways of God; Only He who made him can bring near His sword.

What  type animal is recorded in verse 15?

At 13.1 billion years, galaxy may be oldest known object-source:Ft. Worth Star Telegram/10/21/10

Washington––Astronomers believe that they've found the oldest thing ever seen in the universe:a galaxy far, far away from long, long ago. Hidden in a Hubble Space telescope photo released this year is a small smudge of light that European astronomers now calculate is a galaxy from 13.1 billion years ago. The universe was very young then, just shy of 600 million years.

That would make this galaxy the earliest and most distant seen so far. By now it is so ancient it probably doesn't exist in its earlier form and has already merged with bigger neighbors, and Mathew Lehnert of the Paris observatory, lead author of the study, published online Wednesday in the journal Nature. Richard Ellis, a California Institute of Technology astronomy professor who wasn't part of the discovery team, said,''We're looking at the universe when it was a 20th of its current age.''

While Ellis finds the basis for study''pretty good,'' there have been other claims about the age of distant space objects that have not held up to scrutiny. And some experts have questions about this one. But even the skeptics called the study important. The finding fits with therories about when the first stars and galaxies were born. This galaxy would have formed not too long after this one.-/end report/

Now, could this report about an ancient galaxy, which astronomers reckon is now not even in the form of the state in which it was brought into view by the Hubble space telescope and deemed a most ancient galaxy by astronomers of the Paris Institute of Technology for real?

Well, maybe it is and then maybe it isn't.

However as it is though, for me personally as a Christian believer although interesting concerning this study, this in no way affects my personal Christian views one way or the other.
But having said that there are others, who classify themselves as non-believing individuals, many well educated, that cannot or are not able, to bring themselves to the realization of a supreme being, a God, because they as being educated on a high level especially when it comes to various studies, when it comes to science are not able to reconcill the God of the Bible to what they humanly know because of this.

Now to me, as a Christian believer this is a big problem with the issues involved here.

Now, it is true that as stated in a previous post contained within this thread that I made some certain comments according to how people become,''saved,'' in the original sense.

I personally believe because of what I have been shown through God's own Spirit, is that the die has already been cast, so to speak, concerning the salvation status pertaining to all people before anyone who has ever lived or are still currently living today comes forth into this world as living beings, or better yet, human beings.

But there again it is not the physical portion, as it is, concerning human life here on planet earth that I am talking about.

It is the spiritual side or complete other entity of the spirit, the living spiritual formation of another man, or woman, that lives within the inside of us with an outward physical nature that I am refering to here.

That is, the unending living part of a person.

So why a ,''Great Commission,'' concerning Christians who are to go out into the world and through the grace of God,''save other people?'' Well because as spiritual people who were born spiritually blind in a spiritually un co-operative physical body, it is here where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, concerning saving other people through Jesus Christ, that the true power of God may be shown.

But some might ask according to this previous statement concerning why's and how's of this just why is this so important?

One reason that I think that a person not personally knowing God and who has been around for a while, especially a person who is well educated, may ask this is because they and most of those in this kind of life condition over quite a long period of time, have not been able to get off of square one, so to speak, when talking with or better yet interacting with other people, that would be Christians in general.

That is, those Christians who have attempted to be apologetic with them concerning the Christian faith in general and is because they personally do not see,that would be the unbeliever or worldly person, any real differences between themselves and the ones, that again would be Christians, who are attempting to lead them to Christ from a position of spiritual weakness and not set apart real strength that can only become physically manifest as apparant through there own actions concerning such.

Without the express direction of God's Holy Spirit working within them and for a good reason.

Now as a distinct norm here concerning Christian apologetics vs. the,'' Great Commision of God,'' which is detailed and outlined in the Bible,who's fault is it that there are spiritually blind spiritual people who have been placed in human bodies from a physical birth experiance running around all over the earth at the present in need of spiritual awakening due to the fact that Jesus Christ is their personal Lord and Savior?

That would also be by a deserved and real birth-right through Christ who is for them and without a doubt sometimes after multable attempts at doing so, that is bringing a person to the stark reality concerning themselves into the forefront of their own mental conciousness from Christian people who appear to have the same priorities in life as the worldly individual and they do not budge to the facts which always remain?

Is this God's fault they will not come to God through Jesus Christ?

Well if not because God is perfect and it His His own express will that none should perish both times, that is physically first, but  most importantly spritually separated second,now only in the ultimate state of the sprit man and in a chaotic state of never ending degeneration, then who's fault is it then?

Well if you as a Christian person haven't been able to figure this out yet then I'll tell you for sure.

It is our's as a Christian community in general that's who, and fully accountable to God for repayment and reproval for such activity that God does not honor nor will He ever!

And what is one of the main problems of why that it is, that makes this issue so true?

Well, because Christians, and this includes myself at times alsoas an example are just plain out of step with where it is that God might be leading us a a determining force within this world in order to do His will concerning it, and all other people who by God's own accounting deserve to live.

Eternally.

As I grow older and become as a matter of faith more stable in my own Christian walk with Jesus Christ, I have even found many Christians treating each other like total strangers or very close to it.

And I'm not talking on the streets, so to speak, either, but Christian followers who are members of the same church orginization walking around in there acting as if they have a big sign hung around there own neck that reads in about in ten inch red glow in the dark letters that reads:''Hey Bud,don't even think about bothering me or even speaking to me today because I am here to do the Lord's work which doesn't include you because ''I AM'' more spiritual than you are because of who I am in this place and I have been here for more than forty years now!''

Ha!

Yeah, right here in this place all right!

Dead and Buried.

I will expound at this time and in the modern here,if I might, about what God, in the form of Jesus Christ told people mainly concerning what one must do to victoriously enter into God's Kingdom and the personal sacrifices that one must do in order to make this happen for a person and for good reason.

If a person who considers themselves a Christian believer has put any personal priorities of their own carnal choosing above and beyond what is righteous in the eyes of God pertaining to what it is going to take a Christian especially in this day and age in order to become a proficent leader within his or her own Christian community, that is, in or through their own Church body or church for starters, if there is ANYTHING that is personally holding you back from doing your job as an effective and even professional Christian apologest concerning witnessing the good news of Jesus Christ, then de-prioritize it now or junk it in a place where junk is supposed to go.

You know, like a junk pile at a land fill someplace might be a good option for a Christian with some present junk in their own lives for starters, or maybe even down the drain of your own kitchen sink.

God has not called us as Christians, or as physical people, to spend unauthorized, that's right, unwarranted huge amounts of time, tip-toeing through the tulips of this world, so to speak, as others in this world naturally do, you know like the ones who really haven't got a clue about their own spritual status because they do not walk in the light of God's own truth concerning themselves.

Because it is what you will do in your own personal time as a Christian believer especially when all others are not around that will determine and show what kind of person that you will be in public according to God's own word., or the Christian Bible concerning you!

And I promise you if there is anything contain within this post that God Himself considers to be truth, then one thing I do know about God is that what you do in private as a Christian makes all the diference of how people will react to you as a christian witness toward others.

And this goes not only amongst ourselves one toward another as Christians, but especially toward other people who are right now in dire need of Christ not even knowing it most of the time, evidenced by their own carnal actions which left unchecked as a lifestyle will at one point will most definitely, relentlessly damage them.

God will judge you as a christian in the here and now for certain worldly things and the worldly circumstances that you willfully get yourownself into, and this in itself can and will have a most adverse effect on how it is that God finds favor with you in order that other people, and this goes for the lost of this world will favor, honor, and fully listen to what it is that you are saying to them witnessing about Christ or anything else.

I guarantee this sort of reaction from God, because God, does not honor the wanton and willful breeching of His spiritual laws on any level to co-operate with the person who generally practices such behaviors.

God will not co-operate in this kind of situation or with this kind of person because God does not represent here and is law for Him not to.

His Law.

And that is not being as a general rule and more times than not a dedicated and personal ambassodor in a lost world, being fully directed by God's Spirit as a personal ambassador of God's own Kingdom by order and decree by our own Majesty and King above all others.

So what are the,''others,'' in your own life as a Christian.

Could they possibly be some,''others'' that ,''those others,'' as some Christians call the people out in the world, as it were, through an unending air of superiority, yet in many cases just plain ignorant about what it is that they should do in order to discipline there own actions as to be an effective, and meaningful witness before God and all people?

There are in fact many Christians in this world who at the present are most definately glorifying God by their own actions being lead to a large dgree by and through the Holy Spirit of God and thank God for them.

There are also hundreds of millions of people if not more in this world who clain to be Christian people right now.

UIs it any wonder though that Jesus Himself made a comment in His own earthly ministry here in this world two-thousand years ago that,''The harvest is plentiful, but the labors are few.''

Well now in light of these words spoken by Christ at least in my own way of thinking, there is definately a deficeit of quantity of already Christian laborers here on earth now as there have always been.

That is, not having the qualities that it takes as a Christian witness to even in most cases get even a  mild interest going on concerning the realities God's Kingdom through Jesus Christ through to anyone and what's at stake as it has always been.

And that's everyone who needs God in their own lives, you know everybody, and that includes the ability to motivate other Christian belivers to do the same.

And that would be to know what in the hell is going on here!

As a Christian person do you?

Thanks,

SAE      

God created all thing complete even the light traveling from the farthest star arrived at earth at day one of creation. Just a note God's creation was only 6 days.  Contrary to what has been posted about the first day's creation. In verse 5 all that was done was done in one day.
Genesis 1:1-5  
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

most science is at odds with evolutionary theory as well - - -

You have said a lot on what you seem to think God is all about. You can say or think what you want. I just think what you say would carry more weight if you used the scriptures to support what it is you say.

Something to ponder
Buddy Davis (co-author of the book The Great Alaskan Dinosaur Adventure) describes how he traveled to the North Slope in Alaska where they explored the Liscomb Bone Bed. His expedition discovered thousands of frozen unfossilized dinosaur bones, some of them with ligaments still attached! This does not fit the evolutionary story of dinosaurs becoming extinct 60 million years ago. Other researchers have found similar frozen dinosaur bones. (K. Davies, "Duckbill Dinosaurs (Hadrosauridae, Ornithisichia) from the North Slope of Alaska," Journal of Paleontology, 61(1), 1987, pp. 198-200.)

Well beready, we will do just that but not right at the moment for i am running quite late about some other matters right now, but we will get to it soon.

Also, I saw some Scriptures that you posted previously according to the Genesis accounting through the Bible.

My question for you in the mean time is how do you account for some of what seems to be out of order events that the Bible details about the Biblical accounting of creation itself?

You know, about certain items like what light source was dividing up certain light and darkness intervals, being that God did not according to Moses, create stars and other heavenly bodies untill the fourth day of creation?

Also, if you will, why was man created on the sixth day of creation and not made into a living being until after the seventh day or God's own Sabbath when the Bible states that God rested, or completed all initial creation concerning the earth, which i would, or most people would suppose would include making Adam as a completed living being before the Sabbath?

There are more, but unfortunately I must run for now!

Thanks in advance as always,

SAE

I'm going to have to look into this deeper. I googled "frozen dinosaur bone found" and literally ALL the links that popped up were some sort of religious website. If they trully had what they claim, scientist could recover the DNA and clone a dinosaur. Call me skeptical, but I think there is more to the story.

I did find that they found a mummified dinosaur in 1999, but that actually supports the 67 million years old theory so that's probably why it didn't show up in the religious sites.

Love these type of questions. I will give it my best. Like you i do have some time restraint at the momen,t but give me a day maybe two. Challenging questions deserve good thought out answers.