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Posted: 9/22/2004 1:13:32 PM EST
If you were a body guard would you carry one?

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:14:40 PM EST
Yep.
A3 model (collapsing stock). Compact and controllable.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:15:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:21:24 PM EST by ajm1911]
I believe the secret service used to carry them. I think it was the MP5K PDW with folding stock and a really cool shoulder "holster"
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:15:34 PM EST
I only ask cause the UN got some for protecting Kofi Annan until the Bush Administration jumped all over them.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:15:45 PM EST
Yes and they are used frequently for that. Also a shotgun in a golf club bag works great when doing VIP hotel lobby check in's. Nobody will give you a 2nd glance.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:18:06 PM EST
Depends on the situation. Pistol caliber weapons don't shine against vehicles or tangos w/ body armor.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:19:19 PM EST
Would they be better at short range than a handgun?

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:21:29 PM EST
FWIW…

The British SBS (Special Boat Service) the Royal Marines version of the SAS, carry out the VIP & Senior Officer protection role in Iraq for the British. They used to carry 9mm HK MP5's but they now use the HK MP53 in 5.56mm as they felt the 9mm did not have enough 'knock down' .

world.guns.ru/assault/as13-e.htm



Andy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:22:25 PM EST
Yes, more controllable, more accurate, select fire, higher capacity.

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:23:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:24:20 PM EST by ajm1911]
much better at short range, more energy and accuracy. Many european countries use subguns for police instead of shotguns. Hell they even think the US is barbaric for police using shotguns.
Traditionally subgun ammo has been loaded hotter than pistol ammo. Thats why some old 9mm shouldn't be fired with full power modern ammo
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:24:29 PM EST
Okay but you can't hide them under a jacket can you?

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:27:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:27:55 PM EST by PBIR]
Depends on the model. Some do nicely hanging from a shoulder drop rig (provided your jacket is cut right and the fabric is thick enough).

r/s

Dan
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:27:27 PM EST
Thanks.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:28:36 PM EST


Just finished Mike Durant's book and his opinion of the MP5 and M4. He had lots of problems with the MP5, but he admitted PM on his part was weak.


Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:29:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Depends on the model. Some do nicely hanging from a shoulder drop rig (provided your jacket is cut right and the fabric is thick enough).

r/s

Dan



MP5 PDW will hide under a dinner jacket.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:30:31 PM EST
MP5s are just long barreled pistols.

Get a rifle. Preferably an AR in .223.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:32:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:18:52 PM EST by ARDOC]
5.56 with a 8 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:33:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
MP5s are just long barreled pistols.

Get a rifle. Preferably an AR in .223.



No! Get an MP53 in .223… as small as an MP5 but with the punch of an AR!

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:33:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Okay but you can't hide them under a jacket can you?

CRC



Depends on the model. Some do nicely hanging from a shoulder drop rig (provided your jacket is cut right and the fabric is thick enough).


totally and the rig they use actually helps you to "draw". Unsnap the retaining strap and it drops down locking the shoulder stock out and swinging it up partially into your hands
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 1:37:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 1:39:10 PM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
5.56 with a 10 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.



You lost me here… were talking CQB, range is not an issue.

The .223 round is a hell of a lot more powerful than a 9mm pistol round and will do really serious harm to a BG unless he is wearing a level IV vest. Yes, it is f**kin noisy but so is a Colt Commando with a 10.5" barrel!

FWIW I believe the much vaunted XM-8 will have a 10.5" barrel as well.

Andy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:08:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
I only ask cause the UN got some for protecting Kofi Annan until the Bush Administration jumped all over them.

CRC



Actually it was the BATFE, and they confiscated them as unregistered machine guns :) One of the few times they did something right IMHO

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:09:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
5.56 with a 10 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.



You lost me here… were talking CQB, range is not an issue.

The .223 round is a hell of a lot more powerful than a 9mm pistol round and will do really serious harm to a BG unless he is wearing a level IV vest. Yes, it is f**kin noisy but so is a Colt Commando with a 10.5" barrel!

FWIW I believe the much vaunted XM-8 will have a 10.5" barrel as well.

Andy



Actually it sucks ass but it penetrates body armor.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:11:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 2:12:01 PM EST by ARDOC]
So will a P90. And if SG1 uses it, they cant be wrong!
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:14:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By jimmyjoebob:

Originally Posted By CRC:
I only ask cause the UN got some for protecting Kofi Annan until the Bush Administration jumped all over them.

CRC



Actually it was the BATFE, and they confiscated them as unregistered machine guns :) One of the few times they did something right IMHO




Story I read said that they had to get them out of the country (they were locked up in some "arms room" at the UN building in NYC). Nothing else , no followup, so I dunno, I assume they got them out, or at least said they did :/
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:14:53 PM EST
Oh by the way, waht's the barrel length on the HK53?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:15:30 PM EST
8 point something.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:35:02 PM EST
I always liked the small MP5. But now I like the FN P90.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 2:54:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:19:00 PM EST
But wouldn't it make more sense for Annan's guards to pack those kind of guns in places like Iraq and Sudan and not NYC?

I know they carry Glocks too.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:28:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:32:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
5.56 with a 10 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.



You lost me here… were talking CQB, range is not an issue.

The .223 round is a hell of a lot more powerful than a 9mm pistol round and will do really serious harm to a BG unless he is wearing a level IV vest. Yes, it is f**kin noisy but so is a Colt Commando with a 10.5" barrel!

FWIW I believe the much vaunted XM-8 will have a 10.5" barrel as well.

Andy



Actually it sucks ass but it penetrates body armor.



10 inch .223 barrel, I would expect a HUGE fireball every time it was fired. Also a 10 inch barrel, I suspect will have terrible velocity, 2000 fps?

An 8 in 9mm doing 1400-1600 fps, with decent HP rounds will be an excellent "stopper".

9mm with little-no muzzle flash, negligible recoil, and useful HP, IMHO would beat a short barrelled .223.

VIP protection, you are talking short range, need to conceal etc. MP-5/MP-5 PDW would be excellent weapons, in skilled hands.

The problem with the question, the UN is trying to get rid of all small arms that are "military", yet they want them for themselves...................HYPOCRITES.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:38:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:43:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
5.56 with a 10 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.



You lost me here… were talking CQB, range is not an issue.

The .223 round is a hell of a lot more powerful than a 9mm pistol round and will do really serious harm to a BG unless he is wearing a level IV vest. Yes, it is f**kin noisy but so is a Colt Commando with a 10.5" barrel!

FWIW I believe the much vaunted XM-8 will have a 10.5" barrel as well.

Andy



Actually it sucks ass but it penetrates body armor.



10 inch .223 barrel, I would expect a HUGE fireball every time it was fired. Also a 10 inch barrel, I suspect will have terrible velocity, 2000 fps?

An 8 in 9mm doing 1400-1600 fps, with decent HP rounds will be an excellent "stopper".

9mm with little-no muzzle flash, negligible recoil, and useful HP, IMHO would beat a short barrelled .223.




Then it looks like the US Army is going to have quite a Turkey on it's hands when it adopts the 10.5" barrel XM-8 as its standard weapon…

Andy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:50:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Then it looks like the US Army is going to have quite a Turkey on it's hands when it adopts the 10.5" barrel XM-8 as its standard weapon…

Andy



I think so. The are requiring it based on size of the weapon, commonality of ammo and operating system, not effectiveness.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:54:49 PM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By ARDOC:
5.56 with a 10 inch barrel is going to have more knock down power then a 9mm+p+? I dont think thats a good choice. They would do better with a MP5 in .40. Not to mention it would be deafening to shoot a 5.56 with a barrel that short. Not even moderate range ability at that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well , if the shit hits the fan, nobody is going to care about how loud something is.They can't do anything about it anyway. Remember also that there are quite a few people who hunt with hand guns in .223 for varmit hunting and those barrels are not longer than 14 inches yet they still make shots out to 300 yds or so. And what about silouhette shooters? Yeah, they use different calibers but handguns are still used in some classes. The .40 would still be an improvement over the 9 .My 2 cents.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:54:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Then it looks like the US Army is going to have quite a Turkey on it's hands when it adopts the 10.5" barrel XM-8 as its standard weapon…

Andy



I think so. The are requiring it based on size of the weapon, commonality of ammo and operating system, not effectiveness.



Damn straight.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 3:58:17 PM EST


MP5 is okay if you only want to use FMJ rounds. With any other round they are not felt to be reliable. IMO the HK is a lot better even with reduced 5.56 ballistics.

Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:01:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 4:01:54 PM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:03:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
MP5s are just long barreled pistols.

Get a rifle. Preferably an AR in .223.



No! Get an MP53 in .223… as small as an MP5 but with the punch of an AR a .22WMR!



Fixed it for you.



Well as long as you are here, which would you go with, in the scenario given? Short barreled .223 or a pistol caliber SMG?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:20:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
MP5s are just long barreled pistols.

Get a rifle. Preferably an AR in .223.



No! Get an MP53 in .223… as small as an MP5 but with the punch of an AR a .22WMR!



Fixed it for you.



Okie Dokie… we both stand facing 50 yds apart on a range you with a 9mm MP5 and me with MP53 in .223, both behind a couple of inches of plywood… methinks the .223 round will not even notice its there!

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:25:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/22/2004 4:27:38 PM EST by Blackgun_Fun]
While I am a fan of both the 9mm and .223, and the P90 in 5.7mm x 28...my vote would go to a 4.6mm x 30 solution! My AR15 will always be my favorite gun...but the MP7 in my humble opinion is THE ultimate subgun combination of power, concealment, versatility, and use of light weight materials (at this time)


The HK PDW (MP7)

" With a conventional 20 round magazine in the pistol grip or an optional 40 round magazine that extends below the gun, one of the most amazing aspects of the gun is its size, or lack thereof. It is only slightly larger than a SOCOM pistol!

Sporting a retractable shoulder stock and a very small heads up display sight reminiscent of the Eotech/Bushnell Holosight, the PDW also has a T-shaped cocking handle somewhat like the M16 series."


PDW Technical Specifications
Overall Length: 13.38 in./ 340mm (stock closed) 21.19 in./ 541mm (stock open)
Barrel Length: 7.09 in. 180mm
Width: 1.89 in. 48mm
Height: 6.77 in. 172mm
Unloaded wt. (20 rnd. mag): 2.64 lb. 1.20 kg
Loaded with 20 rounds: 2.86 lb. 1.30 kg
Loaded with 40 rounds: 3.39 lb. 1.54 kg


4.6 x 30 Ammunition Technical Specifications
Cartridge Length: 1.5 in. 38mm
Projectile weight: 24.7 grains 1.6 g
Case length: 1.18 in. 30mm
Ballistics/Velocity: 2379 fps 725 m/sec
Ballistics/Muzzle Energy: 312 ft/lb 420 joule
Projectile composition: Copper plated solid steel bullet


Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:35:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:44:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Depends on the situation. Pistol caliber weapons don't shine against vehicles or tangos w/ body armor.




In that case id say an FN P90 would be what you would want. 50 round capacity, armor piercing bullets, compact, light weight, low recoil. anyone got a picture?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:52:32 PM EST
If its good enough for the SBS its good enough for me…(if I ever get to live in a country were I can own one…)

The MP53 beasty in action…

www.hkpro.com/video/HK53.mov

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:54:07 PM EST
H&k also makes a "Fag Bag" for the Mp5.

It's a custom-cut brief case that holds the weapon and the wepon can be fired from within the briefcase without having to remove it from the case. There is a trigger on the briefcase handle, the ultimate in concealment.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:56:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
FWIW…

The British SBS (Special Boat Service) the Royal Marines version of the SAS, carry out the VIP & Senior Officer protection role in Iraq for the British. They used to carry 9mm HK MP5's but they now use the HK MP53 in 5.56mm as they felt the 9mm did not have enough 'knock down' .

world.guns.ru/assault/as13-e.htm

img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/HK53A3.jpg

Andy



Bah, what a whimp gun. I'd use my HK51.



Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:58:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
MP5s are just long barreled pistols.

Get a rifle. Preferably an AR in .223.



No! Get an MP53 in .223… as small as an MP5 but with the punch of an AR a .22WMR!



Fixed it for you.



Well as long as you are here, which would you go with, in the scenario given? Short barreled .223 or a pistol caliber SMG?



An 8.36" 5.56 vs a 9mm with my choice of ammo?

I wouldn't hesitate to choose the MP5 with 147gr Ranger-T. You'd get excellent penetration and a nice sized wound channel. With 5.56, you'll never get enough velocity to fragment, even with the heavier ammo such as 77gr Nosler/77gr Hornady.

Plus, the MP5 is more controllable with FAR less (not deafening) muzzle blast.



Yep, I'm feeling the same way, up to 11.5" 5.56 barrel. I'm making a 10.5" 9mm SBR for this very reason. I want an SBR, but I don't like 5.56 under 14".
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 4:59:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
H&k also makes a "Fag Bag" for the Mp5.

It's a custom-cut brief case that holds the weapon and the wepon can be fired from within the briefcase without having to remove it from the case. There is a trigger on the briefcase handle, the ultimate in concealment.

Yeah I've seen a couple of those, IIRC, they themselves require a tax stamp and registration as an AOW, and cost as much as a new MP5, ($1500+)
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 5:01:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:
H&k also makes a "Fag Bag" for the Mp5.

It's a custom-cut brief case that holds the weapon and the wepon can be fired from within the briefcase without having to remove it from the case. There is a trigger on the briefcase handle, the ultimate in concealment.

Yeah I've seen a couple of those, IIRC, they themselves require a tax stamp and registration as an AOW, and cost as much as a new MP5, ($1500+)



Not regulated but extremely rare.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:30:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
8 point something look at that cool avatar.



Fixed.
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 6:32:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Arlis:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
8 point something look at that cool avatar.



Fixed.



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