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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/10/2005 9:29:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:30:37 AM EDT
Of course it is!

It is not the machines that make the police more militant but rather their attitudes, tactics, and power.

And I am not convinved that has happened yet.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:31:52 AM EDT
It helps track fleeing suspects at the very least. Few would argue that the police don't have the right to enforce a lawful arrest.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:33:33 AM EDT
Most agencies can't afford to run one on their own, which limits their widespread use. But they certainly serve a valid purpose, and anyone who thinks they represent the militarization of LE is a bit crazy.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:33:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Of course it is!

It is not the machines that make the police more militant but rather their attitudes, tactics, and power.

And I am not convinved that has happened yet.

Sgat1r5



Yet do not better machines give more power? Such as bolt-action vs. select fire...
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:34:07 AM EDT
I can't believe that someone would even ask this....

HH
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:34:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NimmerMehr:
Yet do not better machines give more power? Such as bolt-action vs. select fire...



No, the give more FIRE PWER, not legal or ruling power.


Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:34:53 AM EDT
I've seen them used in three separate incidents where a bad guy was presumed to be in an area after a crime. All three helo deployments resulted in zero results (same for dogs, which I think are worthless to a PD, as far as tracking a bg, btw). However, my feeling is that by the time you get to the scene, figure out whats going on, set up a perimeter, and call for a chopper, it's too late. Too much time has passed and the BG got away. Unless your dept has one parked in their lot, that is.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:34:59 AM EDT
Cain't outrun one of them thar heelee-o-coppters.....I mean they got cop right in thar name!
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:37:02 AM EDT
Legit tool and very effective
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:39:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:39:26 AM EDT
Are you joking? Of course they have legitimate uses - pursuing a fleeing suspect, search and rescue, many others. How does the mere presence of a helicopter "oppress" someone? How is the mere presence of a helicopter "militant?"

Maybe the cops should put away their guns and go back to using truncheons and blackjacks.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:41:45 AM EDT
If you're trying to claim that helicopters is a militarization of the police, then I'm going to ask you if equipping news agencies with helicopters makes them militarized.

It's just silly.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:42:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:46:53 AM EDT by NorCal_LEO]
Are you kidding?

Set aside ALL the "typical LEO ghettobird" applications then consider:

Emergency medevac
Searching for lost chilren
Wilderness rescue
Fire spotting
Emergency transport
Extractions of LEOs/FFs and civilians in emergencies
Public warning

The list goes on and on....

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:43:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
Most agencies can't afford to run one on their own, which limits their widespread use. But they certainly serve a valid purpose, and anyone who thinks they represent the militarization of LE is a bit crazy.



I love the fact we have one. The Search and Rescue capability alone is worth it. It also has resulted in some VERY good arrests on fleeing violent offenders. Vehicle pursuits especially. The FLIR capability ought to get the tinfoil to rattling.

The typical Arfcom take is another matter, witness the argument by members in the other thread that it was the occupants of the helicopter shooting themselves down.

HOW they come up with this stuff out of the clear blue is a mystery to me.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:44:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:46:06 AM EDT
And IIRC my city had three, but now we have two because one crash and two officers were killed.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:46:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:49:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:52:31 AM EDT by Johninaustin]
Originally Posted By avengeusa:



our leo's just got one, it seems to do a lot of flyby's, and the 300K cost to re engine was steep, is it worth the money?

are they gonna write that many tickets to pay for it?



I know this will never sink into the local "revenue" types. But ticket monies don't go to the dept. That's just not how it works. The fines go to the court and from there into the state and city general fund.

For your local guys to buy that helicopter, they had to have the funds in place to maintain and operate it before they ever got it from the govt. I believe it's a 5 year commitment.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:53:30 AM EDT
More LEO helos!!!

This H46Driver needs a job when he retires from .mil in 4-6 years.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:56:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
More LEO helos!!!

This H46Driver needs a job when he retires from .mil in 4-6 years.



LAPD is ALWAYS hiring.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:57:17 AM EDT
Absolutely a legitimate tool.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:57:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:59:23 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Legit? Sure.

Lots of good reasons to have one, as long as your community has enough dmenad to justify the expense. My county would not even come close, but larger ones would.


Right up untill they decide to mount crew served weapons on it.... it won't take long for that to happen I bet. There is not legit need for that, but if some department has not yet I am sure they will.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:01:50 AM EDT
No, they should be replaced with a cheaper alternative:

Dozens of Predator Drones on continual orbit
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:02:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:
No, they should be replaced with a cheaper alternative:

Dozens of Predator Drones on continual orbit



But Leo's already are flying them!




Sgat1r5


PS It's a joke.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:04:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Legit tool and very effective


+100

I kinda throw this question in with is airsoft cool tyoe wuestions.....
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:05:04 AM EDT
A helicopter isn't militaristic by nature. They become militarized when .mil buys one, arms it and puts soldiers into it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:07:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:10:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Cain't outrun one of them thar heelee-o-coppters.....I mean they got cop right in thar name!





Ben
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:48:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 10:51:23 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
what actual legitimate uses are there for them



They are great for pursuits becuase they can call the pursuit from above, letting the two ground units keep both hands on the wheel and concentrate on driving rather than radio traffic.

They are great at spotting bank robbers and such as they try to flee the area.

At night they are very helpfull when you stop a group of bangers in a dark location and they can circle above, with the spotlight on you so you can actually see rather than trying to light up 10 people with a maglight.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:50:42 AM EDT
Legit? Yes!


To top it off, its the best LEO job you can have.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:52:27 AM EDT
not many crooks that can out-run a helo. Allows patrol units to back off a suspect, but allows continued observation.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:58:04 AM EDT
Very.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:11:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
in the spirit of the down helo thread in gd, it got me thinking, do you think the use of a helo is a good thing for local leo work?

Or is it going the way of the militarization of the Police forces



Last time I checked the Police did not employ attack helicopters.



what actual legitimate uses are there for them, and do you think they will ever be used as an oppressive tool against the population



Can you really not think of legitimate uses? Pursuit? Rescue? Search? Transport casualties rapidly from accidents? THINK HARDER, and you might come up with a few.




i think the helo's may be a little on the overkill side, as are the tanks/apc's in use by leo's

what say you?



Overkill for what?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:20:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 11:22:43 AM EDT by Freakzilla]
as long as the ATF isn't shooting babies from them, like they did at Waco

edited to add, I think the chopper has many legit uses, but I DO NOT think police should be shooting from choppers, this seems to attract the rambo type, not the senseable type.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:59:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:
Cain't outrun one of them thar heelee-o-coppters.....I mean they got cop right in thar name!



It can be done, it's not easy, and it helps a LOT to be near a major airport when you are being chased. They won't violate the traffic pattern/landing path of an airliner to allow the police to chase a subject.

Dave
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:01:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:
I've seen them used in three separate incidents where a bad guy was presumed to be in an area after a crime. All three helo deployments resulted in zero results (same for dogs, which I think are worthless to a PD, as far as tracking a bg, btw). However, my feeling is that by the time you get to the scene, figure out whats going on, set up a perimeter, and call for a chopper, it's too late. Too much time has passed and the BG got away. Unless your dept has one parked in their lot, that is.

Actually most airborne pd units have more arrests on record than regular patrol units. It is a VERY effective tool, not just track suspects running, but also those that may be attacking.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:03:10 PM EDT
Medivac's, search & rescue yeah effective tool's
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:24:43 PM EDT
Someone has watched Blue Thunder too many times.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:26:39 PM EDT
If you consider the original concept of a police officer as someone who observes and takes action to prevent crime, then the helicopter is an excellent observation tool.

In very built up urban areas, response time for a helicopter is usually much faster than the ground units. A helo can get through any city in just a few minutes because it doesn't have to contend with rush-hour traffic in the way, or slowing down for lights, or all the other problems patrol cars have in response time. Often it can be the first, or second unit to arrive at the scene.

Helicopters themselves are expensive, so some departments only use them at night. Some only use them in a "pool" with one aircraft providing support to a large area of multiple jurisdictions that everyone kicks in for.

Some departments use actual fixed wing planes. This is a cheaper way to go, and can easily do the spotlight thing and the FLIR thing, but eliminates any missions of lower than stall speed obviously. Ii is MUCH cheaper to buy, own and operate a plane than a helo, especially if your department doesn't really need the vertical capability.

A UAV would be cheaper still, but technology will have to be pushed forward by the military a few more years before anyone will be using on above a city. Out in the sticks, you could probably start using one in a couple years time. This is a huge growth area.

A blimp is a relatively cheap platform that gives you great on-station time and low-speed capability. The only problems are with weather and it's slow speed. It's alot cheaper to keep a blimp in the air for eight hours than a helicopter. These things are great for border missions, search (of seach and rescue), and other loiter missions, but not a quick response vehicle by any means.

I think alot of departments could get away cheaper using a fixed wing for their needs, but some definately need a helo. Like the way they buy guns and everything else, there's alot of politics and salemanship involved with police helicopters.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:30:18 PM EDT
We're still pretty far away from the FAA letting anybody fly a UAV over a city. They would work great, but they're still not ready for prime time.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:36:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 1:37:36 PM EDT by NorCal_LEO]

Originally Posted By Ross:

A blimp is a relatively cheap platform that gives you great on-station time and low-speed capability. The only problems are with weather and it's slow speed. It's alot cheaper to keep a blimp in the air for eight hours than a helicopter.



I was snickering at the blimp when I googled it and I'll be a monkey's red-assed uncle if NYPD didn't use one at the RNC. You learn something new every day.

Good post, BTW.



NorCal
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:59:38 PM EDT
Of course the helicopters used by the po-po are not armed, its the passengers inside the helicopter that are armed.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:54:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:02:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
We're still pretty far away from the FAA letting anybody fly a UAV over a city.



Are you sure about that??
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:47:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
We're still pretty far away from the FAA letting anybody fly a UAV over a city.



Are you sure about that??



Oh, yeah. I used to sit through discussions at Ft. Campbell for the integration of UAVs in the flight patterns with helicopters, civilians air traffic, and over populated areas. UAVs are HEAVILY (note the bold) restricted. As in, it was almost not worth it at Ft. Campbell, they were thinking about stationing the units elsewhere.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:06:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By H46Driver:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
We're still pretty far away from the FAA letting anybody fly a UAV over a city.



Are you sure about that??



Oh, yeah. I used to sit through discussions at Ft. Campbell for the integration of UAVs in the flight patterns with helicopters, civilians air traffic, and over populated areas. UAVs are HEAVILY (note the bold) restricted. As in, it was almost not worth it at Ft. Campbell, they were thinking about stationing the units elsewhere.



One of the first Army attempts at a UAV was the Aquilla drone. It started off as a simple enough project, but as most projects in the 80's it became more expensive, and more sophisticated well beyond any reason. It was just another defense program run amok that had a life of it's own. Anyway, they decided that it needed to be able to do some of it's own flying and navigating to negate the need for constant ground control. Of course this is the mid 80's so it's not like technology had caught up with the requirements.

Anyway, the thing would be flyinng around the training area of Ft Hood, and we'd get a call on flight following that the Aquilla was loose. It would just decide to go fly it's own way, do it's own dreamed up mission and not bother telling anyone else what it was. The thing would be haulign ass all around the sky, and you never knew what it was going to do or where it was going. It became comical after a while, but after a few times heading for Waco or Austin and the Army finally killed it.

I know the UAVs of today are not the same thing, but it's always a concern with and aircraft that has no pilot. A few years from now, and people will be used to the idea. Then it will be easy enough.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:31:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
More LEO helos!!!

This H46Driver needs a job when he retires from .mil in 4-6 years.



Fly EMS
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:03:52 AM EDT
doughnuts are best when fresh, ya cant get to the doughnut shop much faster than by helo.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:22:27 AM EDT
I used to live by the river, and crooks used to hide in the brush or water. They used the heat vision on the helo, and would call out to the suspect to give it up. When they would not, they could direct the ground offices to the suspect.

Around here, they also use them in police chases. The cars follow at a safe distance while the chopper tracks them from above. I think it makes things safer, as the perps don't go as fast and get caught in the end anyway.

I don't think it is the tool, but how you use it.
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