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Posted: 8/30/2004 8:25:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 8:28:31 AM EST by DriftPunch]
American socalists see their agenda as a force of equality before anything else: equality as religion. Some believe in their agenda because they refuse to accept the nasty reality of life, and some believe in it because they feel market capitalisim has failed them (not considering that they themselves have failed).

However, they have not really thought about their chances in such a system. Look to other socialist nations. With the exception of cleptocracies, criminal regimes, and some hard core communist countries, performance is still a class filter in governmental systems. They are unprepared for this.

My hypothesis is that many pre enactment proponents of socalisim are basically easy employment seekers. Consider someone who is lobbying for the creation of an agency responsible for the approval of automotive design. As usual, the proponent sees himself as a critical part of this agency. Upon enactment, the same motivator that sent the talented engneers and designers to the auto companies, will now rush to this new bureau and immediately and totally eclipse our hereo who will once again be sent to the back of the line. Ergo, the American proponent of socalisim is happiest when his potential competition for position(job, status, you name it), is busy elsewhere.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:33:35 AM EST
My experience with "american socialists" is that they are mainly people whom have read books by Marx and Engels and identify with the theorhetical concept of a socialised government. Few have ever lived in a country where socialism was attempted, and few have relationships with people that fled those places. My opinion is that there is a vast difference between socialism as it is understood, and socialism as it has been historically attempted.

My answer to your question...no...I dont think they have a clue what they are dealing with.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:36:24 AM EST
No they haven't a single clue. The ones screaming in the streets right now about how badly they hate the Capitalists because of the aristocracy, will be the same ones screaming in the streets against whomever the aristocracy consists of under a socialist rule (Kennedys, Klintons, Etc...)
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:36:57 AM EST
DP, read Sowell's The Vision of the Anointed and The Quest for Cosmic Justice.


Having been on that "team" - I can say that Sowell absolutely nails their motivations.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:44:35 AM EST
I suspect that they think that with "free" health care, education, housing, et c. they'll be able to pursue their callings as great thinkers, performance artists, professional empathizers, organic gardeners, artisan bakers, whole grain cockbites, et c. without the intrusion of work. Makes sense. After all, the USSR, North Korea, Red China et al. are (or were) widely recognized hotbeds of artistic and personal expression. Bwahahahahahaha!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 10:59:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 10:56:32 AM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I suspect that they think that with "free" health care, education, housing, et c. they'll be able to pursue their callings as great thinkers, performance artists, professional empathizers, organic gardeners, artisan bakers, whole grain cockbites, et c. without the intrusion of work. Makes sense. After all, the USSR, North Korea, Red China et al. are (or were) widely recognized hotbeds of artistic and personal expression. Bwahahahahahaha!



No doubt, but don't understatimate the number that simply want to reshuffle the deck based on the assumption that their current status was the result of a stacked deck or bad luck in the deal. They are not self aware, or sophisticated enough to see that they will still get the shaft under the European (or any other) model as well.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 11:37:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
I suspect that they think that with "free" health care, education, housing, et c. they'll be able to pursue their callings as great thinkers, performance artists, professional empathizers, organic gardeners, artisan bakers, whole grain cockbites, et c. without the intrusion of work. Makes sense. After all, the USSR, North Korea, Red China et al. are (or were) widely recognized hotbeds of artistic and personal expression. Bwahahahahahaha!



Couldn't have been worded better. You know these people better than RUSH!
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:06:30 PM EST
"If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's 'free'." PJ O'Rourke.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:49:37 PM EST
They are clueless. MAny are just looking for "something for nothing" in one form or another. Others think they will be the new commissars, having a great administrative "position" with an empire of civil servants. What the whole bunch doesn't realize is that they will all have to WORK, not just sit around. Sure, some small cadre will have bureaucratic empires, but the rest are "worker bees." An earlier poster commented that many had read books by Marx or Engels, and fell in love with the theory. I believe that is correct. But, these people were superficial in their reading, or selective in what they gleaned. It's very clear in Communism (the genuine article, not Soviet) that all people WORK. It would be a laugh.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:09:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By the:
DP, read Sowell's The Vision of the Anointed and The Quest for Cosmic Justice.



+1 Also, "A Conflict of Visions" by the same author.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:16:01 PM EST
Apparently they've skipped reality because it shows me trouncing all over their ass

Ben
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:21:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 6:22:22 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
No doubt, but don't understatimate the number that simply want to reshuffle the deck based on the assumption that their current status was the result of a stacked deck or bad luck in the deal. They are not self aware, or sophisticated enough to see that they will still get the shaft under the European (or any other) model as well.



To be fair, most of these guys would LOOOOOVE some of the "European" systems, particularly from places like Denmark or Sweden. Stuff like the welfare, unemployment benefits, health insurance, education, labor laws etc - are probably EXACTLY what these guys dream of in their mastubatory utopian fantasies.

Problem is, those systems would NEVER work in the U.S. - and would probably backfire in a spectacular way if attempted.



... of course those systems really aren't "Socialist" per se, but capitalist market economies with HEAVY social welfare grafted on.

For your orignial question - those people would absoutley HATE socialism (particularly the "working" part of it that THEY would have to contribute)
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:24:30 PM EST
Orwell loved the idea of communism until he visited Russia. He came back and wrote "Animal Farm." Many of the same leftist wackjobs who always talk about the Republicans being Big Brother from "1984" forget that he also wrote "Animal Farm" about the evils of socialism/communism. I gave a really nice copy of it illustrated by the guy who did the illustrations from Pink Floyd's The Wall album to my good friend from high school who turned into a stark raving lunatic socialist. I don't know if he ever got it or not.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:26:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:45:45 PM EST
How does that old saying go? A communist is a socialist that knows what he is doing.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:00:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
"If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's 'free'." PJ O'Rourke.



Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:04:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
No doubt, but don't understatimate the number that simply want to reshuffle the deck based on the assumption that their current status was the result of a stacked deck or bad luck in the deal. They are not self aware, or sophisticated enough to see that they will still get the shaft under the European (or any other) model as well.



To be fair, most of these guys would LOOOOOVE some of the "European" systems, particularly from places like Denmark or Sweden. Stuff like the welfare, unemployment benefits, health insurance, education, labor laws etc - are probably EXACTLY what these guys dream of in their mastubatory utopian fantasies.

Problem is, those systems would NEVER work in the U.S. - and would probably backfire in a spectacular way if attempted.



Yep! The thing with Scandanavian socialism is that it still expects people to work and take pride in their work and be productive. Some people there still work hard even when taxes are 80 percent of income. I think this is an ethnic pride issue.

Of course as the Scandanavian work ethic begins to fade the system is going to fail. Lots of immigration doesn't help. PJ O'Rourke said that at one time Swedish socialism worked because 100 percent of the population desired free ice skating rinks. But today only 60 percent of the population agree on free skating rinks and part of the rest of the population demand government-subsidized mosques.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 8:17:18 AM EST
One only has to look a history (something that most wanna-be socialists/leftist/so-called liberals don't have a clue about).

How many people have fled the West to move to Socalist states? Not many that I can recall.

How many people that have lived under Communisim have fled to the West (and how many have died in the attempt). Hundreds of thousands, millions?

How many people that have fled Communisim have wanted to go back after spending time in the West. Not many.

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall. Do they recall the images of a booming West Germany and a decaying and crumbling East Germany? The fact that the Communists had to build a wall to keep people from fleeing, to keep their society from collapsing from the exodus doesn't seem to have been remembered by those screaming to build the same system here.
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