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Posted: 5/23/2001 10:59:34 PM EDT
Debating whether I should take my Colt Competition HBAR and spend some money to turn it into a solid sniper rifle... Planning on a free-floated handguard, JP trigger, and U.S. Optics SN-8 scope. Would this be an overkill for a calibre that probably loses it's effectiveness after 200 yards? Looking for some experienced opinions. thanks, ptp
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 11:18:01 PM EDT
Part time pork, are you a reserve LEO. .223 great LE round for most situations. Not for sniper/anti sniper/precsion rifle operator/or whatever the hell the new politically correct term is. Get a nice 308 bolt gun. Guys are using 300 win mag, 338, 50, and some others but 308 is tried, true and practical.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 11:23:48 PM EDT
Don't waste your money. Go with a remington 700 or 710, you can't lose with either
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 12:10:18 AM EDT
I have a Rem. 700 PSS (Police Sharp Shooter)in .223. Heavy HS Enterprises stock. Scope is a Springfield Armory 4 - 14x 40mm, 80 mm scope hood. 2 lb trigger. Shoots .4 MOA at 100 yds. (Probably tighter, I can't shoot tighter.) It's a trade in from the Oregon State Police who have opted for the 308. The scope is calibrated to 700 yds. That's with 55 gr. bullet @ 3000 fps. The trick to making this an effective "sniper" caliber is to shoot 69 gr. match grade (Sierra) BTHP bullets. I run 26 gr. Varget for about 3,050 fps. Also, I fire form the brass and neck size only. That way the brass fits the chamber of MY rifle. We turn the necks to get them concentric. Sinclair has a tool for this. OAL is figured with a Sinclair OAL gauge and bullet comparitor. Uniform the primer pockets, deburr the flash hole. Trim the neck, deburr and polish with 0000 steel wool in a polishing cup. I toss the charge from a Uniflow measure and then use a trickler to get it on the mark with a beam scale. Double check this measure with an RCBS (Pact) digital electronic scale. We don't tumble the brass. That nicks the mouths and work hardens the necks. Brass gets hand cleaned. Necks get annealed after five firings. Brass is sorted into lots by weight, brand, lot number, and number of times fired. Bullets are sorted by length and weight. (These are match grade to begin with.) I spend five or six hrs loading 50 rds. And I don't moly coat . . . that's more time. The bore gets swabbed before shooting, then after every five-shot group. No rapid fire to heat up the bbl. Lots of tools to carry to the range . . . "Sniper" or bench shooting is mostly about loading accurate ammo, and shooting a well prepared gun. Semi-autos don't afford the precision of a bolt action "sniper/bench/varmint" rifle. Varmint Al's has a reloading page that describes the reload process: http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm accuratereloading.com is another good site with excellent links. The AR with a floating bbl and a flat top mounted scope is a good tactical/accuracy gun, but you can't fire form and fine tune the brass. The JP triggers are nice. JP also makes a pin for tightening up the fit between upper and lower. You'd have a straight shooter, probably sub MOA. But it's not going to serve as a "sniper" gun in the true sense of the word. That said, I use the Rem. for varmints like sage rats, and the AR (Bushmaster Commando, floated bbl. Redfield 6x scope, Jewell trigger) for coyotes. Mostly because the dogs tend to run, and I can get off a second, third . . . sixth shot if necessary. It's accurate off the bench, but not like the Remington.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 1:02:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PowderBurns: You'd have a straight shooter, probably sub MOA. But it's not going to serve as a "sniper" gun in the true sense of the word.
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Nicely said. Thanks for the reloading tips; I hadn't really thought about sorting the bullets themselves prior to loading, just weighing the brass (both with and without water, to measure the internal volume).
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 2:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2001 2:42:24 AM EDT by GWIGG]
[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1693302&a=13001120&p=48957842[/img] This is my sniper rifle. My Steyer SBS Pro Hunter in .308 with Nikon 3-9x40, & Harris 13.5 to 27" bipod. Actually its my hunting rifle, I like the long bipod so I can sit on the edge of the woods and not have to lay prone to get a steady shot.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 4:21:00 AM EDT
My Rem 700 PSS DM in .300 Win Mag! Hey, if you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly. The scope is a Japanese Tasco SS 10*42. I have only used my own reloads so far. I use a Seirra 168 HPBT Matchking above 73 grains of IMR 4350. I have never chrono'd the rounds, but the bark and recoil tells me that it's moving pretty quick. [IMG]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=192182&a=1409106&p=48153328&Sequence=0&res=high[[/IMG]
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 5:36:56 AM EDT
I just read where a sniper was making kills at 25 yards/meters in VN. With a M14! Your AR should work at that range.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 5:40:14 AM EDT
I have a winchester heavy varmint in 223. I like it cause I can shoot it with the AR being the 223 round. I want to get a 308 bolt so I can shoot it with the M1A. If you dont have the place to shoot more the 300 yards go with 223. Cheaper to shoot. I like 308 also.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 5:44:03 AM EDT
Why not? Only be use in tactical situation (100-150 yards). Beyond that then these above gentlemen already got the answer.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 10:28:51 AM EDT
Stick to a remington 308 for that kind of stuff, more range, more power, not as affected by the wind.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 11:20:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MDS: I just read where a sniper was making kills at 25 yards/meters in VN. With a M14! Your AR should work at that range.
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Wow! That must be a really accurate rifle.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 1:19:11 PM EDT
Angry Ken, I was full-time for several years, then became a reserve for some years, then left it completely because I was tired of the politics and political correctness of our department. I won't name the depatment, but I'll give you the initials....LAPD. Anyways, I already have a Remington PSS. I just thought it would be good to have a semi-auto "sniper" rifle (to round out my collection); and the M1A's are too expensive. thanks, ptp
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 3:05:52 PM EDT
PTP- I am not comfortable with the 223 as a sniper round, but it is a matter of different schools of thought. However, do not get the US Optics scope IMHO. It is way overpriced, overrated and prone to failure. It also is too much scope for that gun as the ballistics of the round will not allow you to take advantage of the scope's magnification.If you want a sniper type scope, go with a Leupold or Nightforce or other quality brand. I personally would throw on an ACOG or ELcan on that rifle for more utility...
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 3:17:54 PM EDT
I personally like the Rem 700 VS Composite myself (Maybe cause I'm not LEO).
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 8:37:21 PM EDT
OK, if you have the Rem. PSS already, then go for the accurized AR. You're on the right track. (You're on the same track as me, it's GOTTA be right!!!) Float the barrel, flat top scope, trigger job. Then you're good out to probably 200 yds and the size of a pumpkin. I'm having second thoughts about bipods. I don't use one on the PSS -- use a bench rest or cross sticks in the field. Hardly ever get a "prone" position on a varmint. The floated bbl. doesn't readily adapt to a pod.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 9:13:03 PM EDT
As a "certified Sniper" on my dept. tactical team, I use 2 rifles. The first, or "primary" is a Remington 700PSS in .308. The second is a Rock River Arms National Match flattop with a Leupold 4.5-14.40mm Tactical scope, and a Harris bipod. I also had the stainless barrel Black Teflon Coated. Using Black Hills 68grain Match Hollow points, the rifle shoots 1/2moa from the box. I shoot 3/8moa with the Remington. Not a bigger enough accurracy difference to matter. Deploying which rifle depends on the situation at hand. If I am the primary, and I am "on the rifle". I use the Remington, especially if I may have to shoot through glass, etc. If I am secondary, or if there are multiple suspects, I will use the Rock River. Most police sniper shootings occur at ranges of about 75 yards. Wind drift is not a concern, unless of course you are talking gale force winds at 90 degree's, etc. The .223 is a very capable rifle at police sniper ranges as long as you are not shooting through doors and such. There are other factors to consider, such as possible overpenetration with the .308 in a crowded multiple hostage situation etc. I guess the moral here is that yes, the AR15 in .223 is a fine "sniper" rifle given the correct circumstances. I'm just lucky to have the choice of which rifle to deploy given the situation. Donnie Pridemore SABLE CO. [url]www.sableco.com[/url]
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