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Posted: 4/19/2016 2:53:34 PM EDT
Some of you old enough to have watched the T.V. coverage of the bombing may recall that rescue efforts were halted at one point upon discovery of a "second bomb".

This is the story that was related to me by a participant - believe, or not.:

The ATF had offices in the building, and they stored evidence there, as well as training aids. The ATF had recently run a sting on someone seeking to purchase a TOW missile. The sting was perpetrated by taking an inert training "missile" and replacing its markings with those of a live round. Post-sting, this item was stored in ATF offices - as a training aid, evidence, use in a future sting - who knows?

When the building collapsed. rescuers were going through the rubble and encountered what, to them, was a live TOW missile. Since they didn't know if the "live" missile was damaged in the bombing, (rocket motor or warhead safeties disabled, etc.), rescue operations were stopped and a team of explosives and ordinance experts hastily assembled to "safely" transport the TOW away form the bomb scene.

After a long and nerve-wracking transport through and down the rubble, (TOWs are kind of heavy, apparently), an ATF representative on site attempted to take possession of the TOW, only then informing the crew on site that it was an inert item involved in a sting. This was shortly followed by the ATF agent being punched out by one of the bomb techs.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:06:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:

Some of you old enough to have watched the T.V. coverage of the bombing may recall that rescue efforts were halted at one point upon discovery of a "second bomb".

This is the story that was related to me by a participant - believe, or not.:

The ATF had offices in the building, and they stored evidence there, as well as training aids. The ATF had recently run a sting on someone seeking to purchase a TOW missile. The sting was perpetrated by taking an inert training "missile" and replacing its markings with those of a live round. Post-sting, this item was stored in ATF offices - as a training aid, evidence, use in a future sting - who knows?

When the building collapsed. rescuers were going through the rubble and encountered what, to them, was a live TOW missile. Since they didn't know if the "live" missile was damaged in the bombing, (rocket motor or warhead safeties disabled, etc.), rescue operations were stopped and a team of explosives and ordinance experts hastily assembled to "safely" transport the TOW away form the bomb scene.

After a long and nerve-wracking transport through and down the rubble, (TOWs are kind of heavy, apparently), an ATF representative on site attempted to take possession of the TOW, only then informing the crew on site that it was an inert item involved in a sting. This was shortly followed by the ATF agent being punched out by one of the bomb techs.

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Similar accounts are related in Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's excellent book, 'The Secret Life of Bill Clinton', which has a very large and well-sourced section on the OKC bombing and subsequent investigation. I highly recommend that book to anybody interested in the OK Bomb case or in the Clinton years and scandals in general.

It still amazes me that Evans-Pritchard managed to get it published, considering the time frame (published Oct. 1, 1997), and that he, personally, did not commit suicide under odd circumstances.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:12:12 PM EDT
Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:19:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.

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What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:29:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:



What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?
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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.




What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:41:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2016 3:42:27 PM EDT by Rick-OShay]
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.




What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.


56 pounds, 46 inches long. I don't know if a ground launcher was involved as well, but bear in mind they were trying to carry it down this ....




... past people still trapped in the rubble, without bumping or jostling it. It just may have seemed heavy in those circumstances, to those who were there ....


Edit to add - and how, is this in any way, a "right wing conspiracy theory"???


Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:43:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.

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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.




What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.



This, and other well-documented incidents, were reported the day of, not 21 years later.

Perhaps you missed that?

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:47:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:


This, and other well-documented incidents, were reported the day of, not 21 years later.

Perhaps you missed that?

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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.




What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.



This, and other well-documented incidents, were reported the day of, not 21 years later.

Perhaps you missed that?


Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:52:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.

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Meaning?


Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:53:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:


Meaning?


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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?



#2, my bad.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:55:08 PM EDT
I was 16 and in school when it happened but I really dont have many memories of the reporting from it at all.
I never had the teachers who let the class watch tv even if something like that was going on. It was always business as usual, on with the class.
Fascinating stuff though. Never heard that the atf and their kids were mostly absent that day from the building either until I read it in another thread.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:56:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DmacRTCo:
I was 16 and in school when it happened but I really dont have many memories of the reporting from it at all.
I never had the teachers who let the class watch tv even if something like that was going on. It was always business as usual, on with the class.
Fascinating stuff though. Never heard that the atf and their kids were mostly absent that day from the building either until I read it in another thread.
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As soon as it happened, our JROTC instructor turned on the TV and let us watch. Same state as you, probably different town.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:58:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:


#2, my bad.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg

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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?




#2, my bad.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg



Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:59:01 PM EDT
Alex Jones level truther bullshit.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 3:59:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.
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Given the MSM's left-wing bias, it was and is a reasonable conclusion.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:05:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:


Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?

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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?




#2, my bad.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg



Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?


More legitimate than the ATF having a TOW missile as a training aid in OKC, which is over 2 hours away from the nearest place that "might" have 1 or 2 TOWS on hand for actual live fire. Especially considering that a TOW missile by itself is useless without a launcher of some sort, and the most you could do with the amount of explosive on board is blow up a van, not a building. Moreover, the only reference to "TOW missile OKC bombing" I can find point back to this thread and a few minor articles by the Free Republic and the LA times.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:05:57 PM EDT
Thanks Saudi Arabia.

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:07:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By bowbender7:
Thanks Saudi Arabiafucked up asshole from NY.

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Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:09:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

More legitimate than the ATF having a TOW missile as a training aid in OKC, which is over 2 hours away from the nearest place that "might" have 1 or 2 TOWS on hand for actual live fire. Especially considering that a TOW missile by itself is useless without a launcher of some sort, and the most you could do with the amount of explosive on board is blow up a van, not a building. Moreover, the only reference to "TOW missile OKC bombing" I can find point back to this thread and a few minor articles by the Free Republic and the LA times.

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I'm not sure what your point is (assuming you have one), and I'm not going to perform the internet equivalent of a wisdom tooth extraction to get there, so, carry on.


Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:14:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:


I'm not sure what your point is (assuming you have one), and I'm not going to perform the internet equivalent of a wisdom tooth extraction to get there, so, carry on.


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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

More legitimate than the ATF having a TOW missile as a training aid in OKC, which is over 2 hours away from the nearest place that "might" have 1 or 2 TOWS on hand for actual live fire. Especially considering that a TOW missile by itself is useless without a launcher of some sort, and the most you could do with the amount of explosive on board is blow up a van, not a building. Moreover, the only reference to "TOW missile OKC bombing" I can find point back to this thread and a few minor articles by the Free Republic and the LA times.



I'm not sure what your point is (assuming you have one), and I'm not going to perform the internet equivalent of a wisdom tooth extraction to get there, so, carry on.



I'm saying that your "participant" is full of shit.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:15:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.






What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.


But not like John Doe number 2? Supposedly AKA Hussein al-Husseini , a former Iraqi republican guard soldier or marine? Who also happened to be working at Boston Logan airport as of Sep 11 2001?
Or that Terry Nichols had connections to abu sayyeff? And made lots of visits and calls to the Philippines?
Odd how all those connections were swept under the rug.
The TOW story is irrelevant in the big picture.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:18:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JQ66:


But not like John Doe number 2? Supposedly AKA Hussein al-Husseini , a former Iraqi republican guard soldier or marine? Who also happened to be working at Boston Logan airport as of Sep 11 2001?
Or that Terry Nichols had connections to abu sayyeff? And made lots of visits and calls to the Philippines?
Odd how all those connections were swept under the rug.
The TOW story is irrelevant in the big picture.
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Originally Posted By JQ66:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.






What has that to do with what is posted in the OP?

Well, for one, if someone considers a TOW heavy, they are either 1)a grade school girl, or C) a new female infantryman.

Shit never happened, just another "right wing conspiracy" theory spread around, what, 21 years after the fact.


But not like John Doe number 2? Supposedly AKA Hussein al-Husseini , a former Iraqi republican guard soldier or marine? Who also happened to be working at Boston Logan airport as of Sep 11 2001?
Or that Terry Nichols had connections to abu sayyeff? And made lots of visits and calls to the Philippines?
Odd how all those connections were swept under the rug.
The TOW story is irrelevant in the big picture.

Swept under the rug?

Just like the Brooklin bridge bomb reports on 9/11?
Or the initial reports on the DC sniper?
Or the reports of the source of explosives for the first WTC bombing attempt?



It is all nut job bullshit.

Most of the time, the first reports, especially in the era before a net-connected, twitter society, are bullshit.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:23:27 PM EDT
What is this thread about?

A toe? I can get you a toe.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:28:15 PM EDT
I thought it was believed the ATF sold the bomb making materials to Mcvay ... Figured this thread was about that
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 4:31:15 PM EDT
I don't believe your "participants" story.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 5:11:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By veritas_rasa:
I don't believe your "participants" story.
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Fine with me.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 5:19:29 PM EDT
Just out of curiosity, OP, did this "participant" friend of yours go on to be a member of the US Navy Delta SEALS Doorgunner alliance?
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 5:20:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By skytrooper01:
I thought it was believed the ATF sold the bomb making materials to Mcvay ... Figured this thread was about that
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It's quite well known where they got the bomb materials: Ag co-ops and theft from a quarry.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 5:27:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Just out of curiosity, OP, did this "participant" friend of yours go on to be a member of the US Navy Delta SEALS Doorgunner alliance?
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Nope. Was working EOD at Fort Sill at the time, IIRC.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 6:14:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

I'm saying that your "participant" is full of shit.

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My who is full of shit?

Dude, a little early in the day to be drinking heavily, ya think?

Seriously, WTF are you talking about?
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 6:18:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Some of us, even those in high school at the time, understood that during and even a day or so after, some sort of tragedy, understood that the initial reports were often false or overblown.

Kinda like "2 white males" in the San Bernardo terrorist attack.
View Quote




Or the white male DC shooters in a van that turned out to be a gay black Muslim and his boy toy in a Caprice . Not terrorist though
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 6:21:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By kozaki:


Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?

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Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?




#2, my bad.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg



Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?



Sorta like Kenneth Trentadue.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 6:25:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By skytrooper01:
I thought it was believed the ATF sold the bomb making materials to Mcvay ... Figured this thread was about that
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McVeigh said in his book that he stole the explosive- semtex I think? from a martin marietta quarry. The material for ANFO was widely available at the time.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 7:12:14 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sirveaux:


Sorta like Kenneth Trentadue.

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Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?




#2, my bad.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg



Oh, a figment of the collective imagination?



Sorta like Kenneth Trentadue.



Or Andreas Strassmeir?

Link Posted: 4/19/2016 7:14:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2016 7:16:53 PM EDT by SWODaddy]
Ordnance, not ordinance. An "ordinance expert" would be a lawyer.


Sorry, pet peeve.
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 7:29:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
an ATF representative on site attempted to take possession of the TOW, only then informing the crew on site that it was an inert item involved in a sting. This was shortly followed by the ATF agent being punched out by one of the bomb techs.
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"You will respect mah authoriti....owww!"
Link Posted: 4/19/2016 9:55:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

#2, my bad.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg
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Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:
Originally Posted By kozaki:
Originally Posted By JohnnyCarcinogen:

Nope,and I didn't miss "john doe #3" the day of, either.



Meaning?



#2, my bad.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/johndoe2.jpg


Holy crap.....I haven't thought about JD#2 in years. I was questioned by authorities, who thought JD#2 was a guy I had went to high school with. I guess nothing ever came of it.
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