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Posted: 9/4/2004 11:40:42 PM EST
I was talking to my friend, and she called anyone who killed people evil. The following things may not be exact or in the right time reference, but thats beside the point.

I asked if i were to go to war and kill for my country (a real possibility), would I be evil?

Yes

If I were to kill someone who was about to kill someone else?

Yes

If I were to kill someone who was abotu to kill hundreds and has already killed hundreds?

Yes

So absolutely anyone who kills, regardless of how justified it is?

Yes

...

(skip forward to today cos I had to leave)

Could you please take back what you said yesterday because you are calling some of my friends and family evil.

No cos its what I believe

But you are calling people who have fought for your freedom evil.

Its what I believe

So my grandfather is evil then?

Pete sorry I didnt want to insult your family directly but its what I believe

You are insulting my family directly by calling people who kill evil. You are also insulting people who have fought so you can be free evil.
Dont generalise by calling everyone who kills evil

(A few mins before, I called her boyfriend a loser cos he does acid and pot) But you called Matt a loser

So?

Your generalising

So if I call someone a loser for doing drugs, something which you have said there is no reason to do, its the same thing as calling the people who kill to keep you free evil?

No but im saying sometimes people say stuff you dont agree with

But you are insulting my family VERY strongly.

im just telling what i think.

I CBF to type what else so ill summarise.

I told her to stop generalising. She tells me to stop calling all stoners losers cos thats generalising too, but the only way she can back it up is by saying her bf isnt a loser. I even told her that I and others have been defending muslims(she is one) because people have been generalising, and by her generalising so much, she is stooping to their level.

I asked her, if her BF isnt a loser, justify his reasons for doing drugs, and she just says drugs have nothing to do wether he is a loser or not... Then she tries and says doing pot is the same thing as smoking a cigarette...then its the same thing as drinking alcohol and tries to tell me that alcohol affects your mental status the same way pot does and that alcohol should be banned...

She got sick of me being right so she left...

Guess what? She is very against me joining the Army Reserves. She, and others on my MSN list also seem to think that having a flower in front of their nickname will contribute to doing something for society, instead of actively going out and doing something...

GAH! Sometimes it feels so good to be on ARFCOM where (almost) everyone has similar views on weapons and that...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:43:15 PM EST
Oh yeah, and when I said I hate terrorists and would kill them....

"If I was a terrorist would you kill me?"

If a member of my own family was a terrorist, I would kill them out of shame.

Youre horrible!

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:46:53 PM EST
Gotcha, she thinks if I protect myself from violence I am a loser, but if I fry my brain with chemicals I'm OK.
Twisted logic for sure, it's called rationalization.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:50:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:51:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Gotcha, she thinks if I protect myself from violence I am a loser, but if I fry my brain with chemicals I'm OK.
Twisted logic for sure, it's called rationalization.



Not only that, If you killed a terrorist/mass murderer/stalin/satan you are evil, not just a loser.


To date, she is the only female which I can defeat in argument regularly. I learned not to argue with females the hard way...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:54:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Someone that screwed in the head wouldnt be my "friend."


I wouldnt trust her any further than I could throw her.



Shes a good friend, she just cant think for herself and doesnt think enough...

Most people here are anti gun, etc so you get used to it. I get into alot of arguments, most of which I win (except when arguing with chicks).

You should have seen the glares I got when I yelled out "GO DUBYA" when the US election was being discussed. People took me aside later and said that GWB is evil but backed off when I challenged them...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:56:40 PM EST
Killing people is not why I am evil . I just am.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:58:58 PM EST

To date, she is the only female which I can defeat in argument regularly.


You'r way ahead then Pete, that's one more than I have ever met!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 11:59:07 PM EST
I don't mean any disrespect, Fifty, but it seems like all the chicks you know are shallow twits.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:03:22 AM EST
Also no disrespect but your friend is a moron. To bad its not possible to send someone back in time.

I think she would enjoy a visit at a concentration camp. Ask her when she comes out if she thinks Adolf Hitler was worthy of being killed to prevent the mass murder of jews from occuring.

I bet she would have totally different beliefs then.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:07:36 AM EST
I cant believe it, all of you guys are so evil
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:08:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 12:13:03 AM EST by smokycity]
Ask her what she bases the qualification of "evil" on. If it is on religious grounds, point out to her that the Bible does not prohibit killing. It prohibits murder. In fact you are very much allowed to defend yourself. It also make reference to people who defend others.

From www.bible.com/answers/awar.html

What is the Bible Definition of Murder?

God knew when He created men with free wills that not all would follow and obey Him. However, He also knew that many would want to love and serve Him. In giving men free will, He also had to establish laws for men to live by. When we look at the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, we can see that these laws were given for the good of mankind. One of these laws is in verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." You may wonder if God said "do not kill," why He would then decree that governments could send men to war to kill other men. The reason is that the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder." Unjust premeditated killing with the wrong motives of hatred, vengeance, greed, jealousy, etc. is murder. Killing in self defense to protect oneself is not murder nor is executing condemned killers. The very founders of this nation were known to carry a Bible in one hand and a musket in the other in order to defend the freedom they sought here. The freedom to worship God was one of those freedoms they fought for and died for.


Edited to add: I'm not trying to get religious or preach, just pointing out that there are moral/religious justifications for self defense and the defense of others using lethal force.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:16:04 AM EST
Damnit... when did Austrailia get listed under "free" countries?

Time to tune in to the history channel for the rest of the night... I'm missin something.


- BG


(Show me your semi-auto! )
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:18:52 AM EST
Since she started dating this guy, ive had alot more arguments with her.

Same guy as I posted a while ago, requesting info on acid.

Im convinced he is a deadbeat loser and she thinks that I dont want her to be happy cos I think hes a loser.

Even though he told her before that he just wants sex and he only likes her cos he wants to fuck her, she still likes him. She went through a short period of hating him after he told her that, but she has gone back to her dumb ways...

Now I have a vegetarian friend, and a killing=evil, drugs are ok if your bf uses them friend...

Oh joy.

Yeah shes got REALLY whacked views on stuff, but shes a good friend and I stick by my friends nomatter how whacked their views are.

I remember she was feeling all depressed and saying her life is crap so I told her that her life isnt crap, look at the people who's lives are REALLY crap, like the starving people in Africa and see how they feel. Then she starts going on about they arent her so why should she care etc etc etc.



Ask her when she comes out if she thinks Adolf Hitler was worthy of being killed to prevent the mass murder of jews from occuring.


I asked her if it would be evil to kill someone who has killed hundreds and you know they are about to kill hundreds more...she said yes...

Shes Muslim, so thats a good idea. It can play with the concept of evil etc
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:20:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By smokycity:
Ask her what she bases the qualification of "evil" on. If it is on religious grounds, point out to her that the Bible does not prohibit killing. It prohibits murder. In fact you are very much allowed to defend yourself. It also make reference to people who defend others.

From www.bible.com/answers/awar.html

What is the Bible Definition of Murder?

God knew when He created men with free wills that not all would follow and obey Him. However, He also knew that many would want to love and serve Him. In giving men free will, He also had to establish laws for men to live by. When we look at the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, we can see that these laws were given for the good of mankind. One of these laws is in verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." You may wonder if God said "do not kill," why He would then decree that governments could send men to war to kill other men. The reason is that the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder." Unjust premeditated killing with the wrong motives of hatred, vengeance, greed, jealousy, etc. is murder. Killing in self defense to protect oneself is not murder nor is executing condemned killers. The very founders of this nation were known to carry a Bible in one hand and a musket in the other in order to defend the freedom they sought here. The freedom to worship God was one of those freedoms they fought for and died for.


Edited to add: I'm not trying to get religious or preach, just pointing out that there are moral/religious justifications for self defense and the defense of others using lethal force.



Shes Muslim.

I asked her if the Koran contains stories of people killing in the name of God but she changed the topic...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:23:09 AM EST
BTW, dont even think about turning it into a muslim bashing thread.

The fact that she is muslim doesnt contribute to the beliefs being discussed.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:24:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:51:40 AM EST
Dude, I hope you are "leaving" for new friends.
Punch her boyfriend in the mouth, pimpslap the bitch, and move on.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:52:59 AM EST
Stick it in her ass, take pictures and post them here.
There is no other reason to ever talk to her again.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:20:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 1:22:48 AM EST by Demordrah]
She sounds pretty ignorant. How can you even stomach talking to her?

Edited to add:

By the way. Tell her if you saw somebody about to kill her, you'd just stand there and watch so you wouldn't be construed as evil for killing the assailant. If she thinks you're an asshole for saying that tell her to take her double standards and shove them up her ass.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:23:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 1:25:00 AM EST by vito113]
Pete,

Some people are irredeemibly stupid… but I know what you mean about her comments and her being a friend.

I work for the British Navy and one of our Press Officers is a friend of mine, she's a woman and not stupid, (she has a Masters Degree), but thinks that any one who wants to possess a gun is 'dangerous'…

Go figure, she works for the Military and thinks guns are 'evil' and people with guns are 'dangerous' ……The Insane Logic of the Left WIng Liberal…

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:29:19 AM EST
She's a stupid bitch.

Beyond that, she's 'bringing a pencil to a gun fight'.

For the sake of argument, let's assume she lives at home with her 3 brothers, 3 sisters, mother and father. A sadistic bad guy is in her home, has tied up and is torturing her family. He's raped her, her sisters, and her father. Tied them all up to a bomb, about to pull the pin to kill them all.

You come in, get the drop on the bad guy, but Wait! Can't kill him, then you'd be just as evil. Right?

Argghhh, the idiots that exist amongst us.



Hell, stuff her in the pooper, post pics, and see if she thinks that's evil.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:30:14 AM EST
I will not just leave her. I dont leave friends nomatter what they believe.

We have a concept of mateship. Mates will do anything for each other and will not ditch each other.

I dont care what my friends think of my faith, my beliefs, etc. What matters the most is that they are my friends. Also if im around, I can affect their views on things using reason and logic.



Its been established amongst some of my friends that I am always right, because I am. Time and time again, my advice has been ignored and what I say would happen, has happened. Ive warned her so many times but shes ignoring me because of this guy.

Hormones do crazy things...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:32:05 AM EST
No stuffing in pooper until Im married and only then it will be with my wife, if she permits me...

In that event, NO PICS!!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:33:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:38:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
We have a concept of mateship. Mates will do anything for each other and will not ditch each other.



Apparently not. By your own account, she would consider it too evil to interfere with the act of someone killing either of you.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:42:27 AM EST
Well she does have a point. It is not our place to judge people. Only God can judge. Unfortunately the only way you can be judged currently is to meet your maker. Therefore if there is potential that your a bad person you should be sent to meet god. Which is all I'm doing by going to war and aiding the killing of terrorists. Used this arguement on a hippy once and shut 'em up. Don't know whether it was from fright or not but it worked.

"Kill 'em all let God sort 'em out"
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:47:57 AM EST
Why are you talking to these women?


ANy women for that matter?


You are 18. You liston to your mother, the rest you tune out until you want to get married.


Next time just look at them and nod: "Uh Huh..."


Then when they pause ask them if they want to get naked.


If they say no, move onto the next one....


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:49:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
No stuffing in pooper until Im married and only then it will be with my wife, if she permits me...

In that event, NO PICS!!



'Pooper stuffing' of females is closet gayness in my books!

Andy
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:50:24 AM EST
50 - don't ever believe that you MUST stand by your "mates" if they are so fucked up and out of whack that sticking with them jeapordizes your beliefs, sanity, and morals. I have, unfortunately, had to walk away from very good friends due to widely differing beliefs and points of view, and I believe I am a better person for it.

And don't stick around someone like this thinking that maybe one day you might get a chance to "tap" it - it isn't worth it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:51:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:

Shes Muslim, so thats a good idea. It can play with the concept of evil etc




And you wonder why she doesn't want YOU to have guns?

Why arm the enemy?


BTW...she might already BE a terrorist....I am guessing she is testing you. I retract my previous statement...I wouldn't touch any muslim.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:56:35 AM EST
A real friend is someone who would kill for you. Even if they would die for you, anything less is just an aqaintance. (sp?)
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:30:15 AM EST
Someone needs to explain to Her that there are Bad people in the world who will murder innocent people and if you do nothing about it then you Condone the Evil ! Saving a life is nothing to be ashamed of ..............................
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:35:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
50 - don't ever believe that you MUST stand by your "mates" if they are so fucked up and out of whack that sticking with them jeapordizes your beliefs, sanity, and morals. I have, unfortunately, had to walk away from very good friends due to widely differing beliefs and points of view, and I believe I am a better person for it.

And don't stick around someone like this thinking that maybe one day you might get a chance to "tap" it - it isn't worth it.



I dont want to "tap" it. I dont see my friends in a sexual manner.


A real friend is someone who would kill for you. Even if they would die for you, anything less is just an aqaintance. (sp?)


I would kill for alot of my friends, and alot of them would kill for me. Chicks seem to have a different view on killing for someone though.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:23:43 AM EST
In the world she envisions there would be only evil. All the "good" people would be either dead or enslaved.


Baaaaaaaaaaaa!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:45:08 AM EST
You seem to be a good guy working thru your problem in an ethical manner. Good for you.
I've got several observations, none of which are guaranteed:
1. Sometimes you HAVE to cut people loose. Are you saying that bc she is your friend, there is NOTHING she could do that would cause you to "cut her loose"? If your answer is still yes after rethinking it, stand by to be victimized throughout your life.
2. I personally beleive the person you are having sex with should be your best friend. This obviously does not apply if your best friend is a guy. Maybe even then if you are "differently-sexed". What I'm saying is that you should rethink rejecting your female friends as sexual partners.
3. Maybe she is mad at her drug addled boyfriend and she is rejecting killing as a personal option for her in THAT situation. I think when someone rejects an argument after hearing evidence that is 100% in favor of that argument, they are doing so for another reason, usually emotional. To give an example some folks become "liberals" because they were bullied by a "conservative". They attack the ideology instead of the person.
4. Along the lines of 3 above, she may be pissed at you because you won't "tap" it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:59:30 AM EST
Ask her if someones shooting kindergarteners in the back and the only way to stop them was to kill them would that make you evil Then tell her she is the stupidist fuckin bitch you have ever met.If your never going to talk to her again try and get her to blow you before you tell her to fuck off.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:05:07 AM EST
You need less stupid people for friends...

Glad it doesn't seem to be rubbing off.

JB
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:11:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:

Shes Muslim.

I asked her if the Koran contains stories of people killing in the name of God but she changed the topic...




DING DING DING DING!

Call her a terrorist then tell her to fuck off....
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:16:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:17:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 6:17:49 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
I would kill for alot of my friends, and alot of them would kill for me. Chicks seem to have a different view on killing for someone though.




Yeah - her method seems to be to spew nonsense at you until you go insane and kill YOURSELF just to get away from her crap!



I've found that personalizing it for people often makes them think - people who make rationalizing and self-serving arguments like her don't usually respond to "wouldn't you have killed Hitler" and stuff like that, because they don't really see how it affect them - so it's not their problem.

But - try asking her if she would kill someone who was about to rape, torture and kill her ENTIRE family and her boyfriend, starting with her mom - and she was standing there with a gun (and her mom is screaming at her to save them). People who like to act all morally superior usually have a tougher time answering THAT question. (of course, many of them will lie when asked - but it might make her think about it later)
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:17:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
Oh yeah, and when I said I hate terrorists and would kill them....

"If I was a terrorist would you kill me?"

If a member of my own family was a terrorist, I would kill them out of shame.

Youre horrible!




I think your first problem is thinking that a Muslim can be friends with a non-muslim. Your second problem is that you still think this person has a shred of rational thinking ability.

I know you won't listen, but Run Forrest. Run far away, and stay there.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:24:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
Comandment Five: Thou shall not kill.

Yupp, right there in the instruction book.

I also recall something like: the body is a temple and to keep in holy, someone who's read the book more recently than me might recall that part better.

Killing is not always wrong as the commandment is really thou shall not commit murder in the orignal language, IIRC. Most actions carried out by the military are not murder but there is the occassional shooting of an unarmed civilian by mistake, shit happens in war so if you see a war happening in the street in front of your house don't be caught taking the trash to the curb.




Some useful quotes on the legitamacy of killing in self defence…

""......Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defense ... legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State. Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose actions brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason."  
~ Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter from 1995, EVANGELIUM VITAE"

""If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." 
~ The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)"

""If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft." 
~ Exodus 22:2-3"

""Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence."  ~ Mohatma Gandhi"

And you can't argue with these very wise people…

Andy
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:26:49 AM EST
If her thinking is that messed up on the things mentioned,how can you trust her
judgement on just about anything?

Doesn't sound like somebody that I would want looking out for me as far as
a friendship goes.


GM
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:29:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunslinger808:
Gotcha, she thinks if I protect myself from violence I am a loser, but if I fry my brain with chemicals I'm OK.Twisted logic for sure, it's called rationalization.



+1
She's just trying (badly) to defend her quasi-hippy existance. To paraphrase:
"We may be deadbeat stoners, but at least we're not hurting anyone".
Of course she leaves out the fact that the families of these people do suffer.

CKMorley
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:32:28 AM EST
The following one sentence statement should make her head spin.

The ability to stand idly by and do nothing while innocents are murdered is the pinnacle of evil.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:39:36 AM EST
I would point out that the drugs consumed by her loser boyfriend (and most likely her), were produced in countries with no regard for human life, and often distributed by drug gangs that kill for it.

So if she can't stand anyone who kills, she should be looking at herself first, and then her loser friend.

After all, if nobody took drugs, then the crime associated with it wouldn't exist, would it?

(And she sounds self-righteous, like most teenagers -- is she that age?)
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