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Posted: 9/25/2005 12:33:25 AM EDT
Hypothetical situation:

Gun friendly lawyer writes up an ironclad case for NFA and the '86 Ban being unconstitutional applying the ruling in US vs. Miller that military weapons are protected by the 2A, and "collective right" is a total fabrication. All that is required is that someone manufactures an obvious military weapon, like an M-16, and intentionally gets caught. Assuming the USSC will actually hear the case, would anyone volunteer?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:34:06 AM EDT
no
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:35:56 AM EDT
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:37:39 AM EDT
I'll pass.

Its not taking it for the team that bothers me, its the taking it in the ass for ten years that does.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:39:03 AM EDT
*Picturing old geezer standing in front of Federal Building performing rifle drill.*
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:39:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 12:40:59 AM EDT by bblake00]
Hell. I'll do it.

There's always black powder.


ETA: Just incase I'm going to have my ass stitched shut.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:41:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.



Great for Bubba. An 87 year old man would be much easier to ass rape. Don't think that age would deter him. I don't think it's about sex appeal
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:41:30 AM EDT
I was thinking the exact same thing, and if you guys bought me ammo. hell yea
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:42:40 AM EDT
Are you nuts?

No.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:44:07 AM EDT

was thinking the exact same thing, and if you guys bought me ammo. hell yea

So, you're okay with being ass-raped? Wanna go camping?

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:48:50 AM EDT
Remember that the appeal was overruled only because the court found (erroneously) that a sawed off shotgun was not a military weapon, and therefore not protected by the 2A. The implication was that military weapons are protected. There is also no mention of a "collective right" at all. That, coupled with the fact that a tax on a protected right (like a poll tax for Americans of African Descent) has already been ruled unconstitutinal. Including the '86 ban, which places said protected weapons out of reach of all but the richest (or eccentric), a devious idea which would have given the KKK a combined orgasm. Maybe play up the class warfare vibe on the lib judges by convincing them that it is unfair that only the evil super rich can own machineguns (which it is). I figure it would be nearly a slam dunk case.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:51:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.



Great for Bubba. An 87 year old man would be much easier to ass rape. Don't think that age would deter him. I don't think it's about sex appeal



I wouldnt do it in California!
You dont get ass raped in all the jails you know.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 12:55:39 AM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
I was thinking the exact same thing, and if you guys bought me ammo. hell yea



What do you mean? The only way for it to work is the volunteer needs to be cleaner than a preacher's sheets with the exception of the gun violation. Can't be any dirt the media can dig up. Must be seen as intelligent, articulate, good guy. No freaks. The defendant must survive to go to court (unlike Miller), not die from police gunfire in a blaze of glory.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:01:24 AM EDT
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:03:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 1:08:35 AM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



If it's so easy, why hasn't anyone done that?

ETA: I would, if I had a shitload of money to throw away. I'll take donations. Any money not spent on legal fees buys me a new gun (for the trouble) and the rest goes to NRA/GOA/SAF/JPFO.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:37:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
I was thinking the exact same thing, and if you guys bought me ammo. hell yea



What do you mean? The only way for it to work is the volunteer needs to be cleaner than a preacher's sheets with the exception of the gun violation. Can't be any dirt the media can dig up. Must be seen as intelligent, articulate, good guy. No freaks. The defendant must survive to go to court (unlike Miller), not die from police gunfire in a blaze of glory.



miller was alive to go to court. he just skipped town once the first case was over were and based on the early case his lawyer thought it was a slam dunk no way in hell the supreme court could see it any other way and didnt bother showing up to aurgee his side of the case.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:43:05 AM EDT
Pretty sure Miller was actually dead at the time, but no one knew that. Except miller. Another example of why you should always see things through to the end.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:44:13 AM EDT
Cyrax, either we've been fed a BS line for a long time, or you're WAY off. You're joking, right?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:28:20 AM EDT
Someone needs to "cowboy up" for this sort of thing. All you fuckers hiding in you bedrooms worried that the JBT's are going to show up and shoot your dogs for even talking about these things need to sod off and GFY.

I have a wife, 2 kids, and not much else, but I'd sarifice it to get you pathetic wastes of skin your rights back.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:31:24 AM EDT
Sure, I'll do it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:43:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 3:44:04 AM EDT by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Someone needs to "cowboy up" for this sort of thing. All you fuckers hiding in you bedrooms worried that the JBT's are going to show up and shoot your dogs for even talking about these things need to sod off and GFY.

I have a wife, 2 kids, and not much else, but I'd sarifice it to get you pathetic wastes of skin your rights back.



What are you waiting for? You can start building your machinegun anytime.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:02:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.



Great for Bubba. An 87 year old man would be much easier to ass rape. Don't think that age would deter him. I don't think it's about sex appeal



Ewwww an 87 yo man can't wipe his butt too good so whomever is giving it to him up the Hershy Highway is gonna have to get through the dingleberries first
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:23:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sigurd:
Sure, I'll do it.



Well, good luck!

Did you head down to the EE and start buying yet?

Keep us updated on your build progress.

We can't help you as that would be "Aiding and Abetting" also "Conspiracy to commit a felony".
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:44:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 4:45:40 AM EDT by GreyHat]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 2716. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:09:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



Maybe I'll try this if I ever go to law school.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:14:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I'll pass.

Its not taking it for the team that bothers me, its the taking it in the ass for ten years that does.



+1000

HH
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:23:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



If it's so easy, why hasn't anyone done that?

ETA: I would, if I had a shitload of money to throw away. I'll take donations. Any money not spent on legal fees buys me a new gun (for the trouble) and the rest goes to NRA/GOA/SAF/JPFO.

Good luck getting a couple million in donations. The gubmint would drag it out so damn long. They'd out money you just so you wouldn't win.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:23:52 AM EDT
I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could find a criminal or criminals already making them.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:28:53 AM EDT
There are probably plenty of people that get jammed up over the NFA now that you would needn’t to "volunteer". But you would have to find a case that was defendable, and a team of lawyers that could not just gets you off but gets the case in to go all the way. Also it would need a lot of financial support and good media attention.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:35:59 AM EDT
No such thing as an "ironclad case"
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:50:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:51:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:
Hypothetical situation:

Gun friendly lawyer writes up an ironclad case for NFA and the '86 Ban being unconstitutional applying the ruling in US vs. Miller that military weapons are protected by the 2A, and "collective right" is a total fabrication. All that is required is that someone manufactures an obvious military weapon, like an M-16, and intentionally gets caught. Assuming the USSC will actually hear the case, would anyone volunteer?



Nope but then again the whole thing can be done off a denied form 1. I'll file the Form 1/Form 4 to make/buy a post 86 machinegun and when it's denied then sue. Thats about the only way I'd take one for the team on this issue.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 7:56:47 AM EDT

Alas, Jack Miller's end was an unhappy one. The Southwest American reported on April 6, 1939, that Miller's body had been found in the "nearly dry" bed of Little Spencer creek, nine miles southwest of Chelesa, Oklahoma. He had been shot four times with a .38. Miller's ".45 calibre pistol," from which he had fired three shots in his defense, was found near his body. He was forty years old.

Little was reported regarding Frank Layton. He pleaded guilty to the charge of transporting a sawed-off shotgun after the Supreme Court decision and was placed on five year's probation by Judge Heartsill Ragon on January 8, 1940. Layton was discharged from supervision on January 29, 1944.


Source
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:13:32 AM EDT
The way to go about this is do document your actions of making it. You can dub over dumbed down differences between "military" and "civilian" versions of the weapons, include dates etc. Then walk to the local police office and turn yourself in.

Assuming the worst and you lose, you want to make sure the judge sentencing you know you only did it with intention of fighting for your rights, not to own a illegal firearm for a length of time.

All of this has to look good to the public. A gun nut caught making a illegal child killing machine gun is different than a person who openly defy's a statute and then promtly turns himself in so he can fight it in court.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:25:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
The way to go about this is do document your actions of making it. You can dub over dumbed down differences between "military" and "civilian" versions of the weapons, include dates etc. Then walk to the local police office and turn yourself in.

Assuming the worst and you lose, you want to make sure the judge sentencing you know you only did it with intention of fighting for your rights, not to own a illegal firearm for a length of time.




Not necessarily a bad thing but you don't know much about the criminal justice system do ya?

They ain't going to give a shit what your reasons were, if in fact that would even be provable or admissible. Federal Court is even worse, judges less receptive and the Fed prosecutor will walk right over you like a steamroller. Further, truth in sentencing laws dictate mandatory terms.
It sucks and it is not what the FFs envisioned but it is what it is.

If you get placed in a federal prison anywhere near me I will come visit once a year in appreciation of your sacrifice.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:26:22 AM EDT
Plus, many of you are forgetting that SCOTUS decides which cases they will review, and which they won't. They have chosen NOT to rule on any 2nd Amendment case since Miller, and it is VERY unlikely that a 2nd Amendment case would ever get that high in the first place in today's legal system. The court system is stacked against you, and you would lose. That's why no one, not even the NRA, GOA, or SAF, have ever tried to persue a straight 2nd case in court.

-Troy


Unfortunately, this is true, the fix is in. And for those that don't believe there is such a thing as "conspiracy", here is a good example of one.

There was a 2nd Amendment case to be argued by Stephan Holbrook, at the moment I don't remember who, in which he argued that Miller protected "weapons particularly suitable for military and police" AND from Perpich vs. the US Dept of Defense, the 2nd Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL right, not a "collective" right.

So, it was "ironclad". So, the Supremes knew it, and after first accepting the case and reading his briefs, then refused to hear the case. They won't touch any 2nd Amendment cases.

Anyone know about Perpich? Class? Class? Anyone?

Back soon after the Commies had taken over Nicaragua some National Guard were to be sent to Honduras for training in jungle warfare. Gov. Perpich of Minnesota was afraid his National Guard was going to be sent into Nicaragua, so he ordered them to not go. The President federalized them and sent them anyway.

http://www.saf.org/MilitiaAndThePeople.html

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&linkurl=<%LINKURL%>&graphurl=<%GRAPHURL%>&court=US&case=/us/496/334.html

Gov. Perpich sued saying Minnesota had been deprived of its militia by federalizing the Minnesota National Guard.

The court ruled against Perpich.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:31:44 AM EDT
I think this has already happened. Didn't some guy walk into a police station a few years back and put an unregistered machinegun on their front desk? If I remember correctly this guy is in a FPMITAP right now.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:33:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.



I like this outlook.

I would have voted "Only if I was sure to win," but I can't believe that anything like this would ever be a sure thing.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:39:18 AM EDT
Where's Sgtar15 when you need him.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:54:19 AM EDT
What does it pay? Besides the 'prestige'...
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:55:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 8:56:48 AM EDT by rtech]
There is simply no way we are going to get this repealed in the criminal justice system. USSC/SCOTUS will never hear it.

The only way to fight this would be to repeal the law, find a gov agency that will transfer a post 86 gun to you (which they can do legally, as long as ATF approves) or a giant 2nd American Revolution.

Another revolution has my vote. I surely don't want future generations fighting and dictating what rights we may have. Think of how many rights people freely give up now? Imagine another Bill of Rights written by some 20 something Ivy League lawyer. Scary huh? I would rather fight right now.

I know of some class 3 people who are voting for dems and pressing them to pass outright gun control and pushing for bans. They want this to happen right now. Then they can fight instead of waiting for the grandkids to do it. Part of me agrees. Right now, we are bleeding from a thousand cuts. Maybe it is better to amputate and then cut the head off the beast.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:00:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



This is the better option. My wife (3rd year law student) and I have researched this pretty heavily and are contemplating doing it after she graduates. It isn't near as expensive when you are the attourney, it just takes time. The problem that we are running into is that there is NOT an ironclad case for this, so it will be an uphill battle for sure. Another problem that we can see running into is the media. You would be branded a far right-wing nutjob for months all over tv and then you would have protesters at your house and at the courthouse. This WOULD have an adverse effect on your case, I promise. If you could find a way to kinda keep it under the radar, it would be a much easier battle. This fact is sad, but it is true.

Brian
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:15:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 9:22:00 AM EDT by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By rtech:
There is simply no way we are going to get this repealed in the criminal justice system. USSC/SCOTUS will never hear it.

The only way to fight this would be to repeal the law, find a gov agency that will transfer a post 86 gun to you (which they can do legally, as long as ATF approves) or a giant 2nd American Revolution.

Another revolution has my vote. I surely don't want future generations fighting and dictating what rights we may have. Think of how many rights people freely give up now? Imagine another Bill of Rights written by some 20 something Ivy League lawyer. Scary huh? I would rather fight right now.

I know of some class 3 people who are voting for dems and pressing them to pass outright gun control and pushing for bans. They want this to happen right now. Then they can fight instead of waiting for the grandkids to do it. Part of me agrees. Right now, we are bleeding from a thousand cuts. Maybe it is better to amputate and then cut the head off the beast.



I agree.
Only bad part is we MAY be able to cut the head off the beast and we will be the ones suffering the amputation. But I like it in principle.

ETA: I voted no way as I would much rather go down fighting than being hauled off in shackles and a jump suit to Club Fed while a bunch of neofascist socialists snicker about getting another decent American off the streets.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:27:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



This is the better option. My wife (3rd year law student) and I have researched this pretty heavily and are contemplating doing it after she graduates. It isn't near as expensive when you are the attourney, it just takes time. The problem that we are running into is that there is NOT an ironclad case for this, so it will be an uphill battle for sure. Another problem that we can see running into is the media. You would be branded a far right-wing nutjob for months all over tv and then you would have protesters at your house and at the courthouse. This WOULD have an adverse effect on your case, I promise. If you could find a way to kinda keep it under the radar, it would be a much easier battle. This fact is sad, but it is true.

Brian



Seems like finding a good honest citizen who was disarmed in NO, or better yet, several would be one of the best shots we have had for a long time.

Problem with finding a good case is that nice normal people rarely attract LEO scrutiny. At least that is my take on it.

As for the protests and media hype, I would say the media has less of a monopoly on news presentation and spin these days thanks to talk radio. You could probably get some gunowners to counter protest also. Yes, it is essential to make noise to support our cause and I agree that SCOTUS is a political body.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:33:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



Hell, thats genious.
NFA and the 86 ban contradict each other don't they?
Isn't that some kind of legal test?
You want to obey the NFA and pay the tax, but the 86 ban won't let you comply with the law.
So, if you follow NFA, it makes you break the law.
Holy crap - that could work.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:41:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I'll pass.

Its not taking it for the team that bothers me, its the taking it in the ass for ten years that does.



yup, while yall are celebrating some 300 lb guy in prison is making hold his beltloop and call him daddy.
Anyone who has seen an episode of Oz would not volunteer for this mission.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:57:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Spade:
Why manufacture it and risk jail?

Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.



Hell, thats genious.
NFA and the 86 ban contradict each other don't they?
Isn't that some kind of legal test?
You want to obey the NFA and pay the tax, but the 86 ban won't let you comply with the law.
So, if you follow NFA, it makes you break the law.
Holy crap - that could work.



Reagan signed the '86 FOPA at the behest of NRA who told him the MG ban would be thrown out in court. Maybe it is time.

I'll tell ya though, if Gonzalez is one of GWB's appointees to the Supreme Court we can forget about it. Best case scenario is a true conservative willing to uphold the Constitution and then another Republican President/Congress with a conservative appointee to replace Ginsburg. Then we'd have a real shot.
And just when I was about to turn my back on George W. Bush's brand of conservatism.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:25:34 AM EDT
Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.

This is exactly what happened in the case I could not remember the name of.

It was J.D. Farmer vs. ATF. Farmer (Hard Times Armory of Georgia).

Stephan Halbrook had an ironclad case. Supremes read his briefs, knew they could only vote in favor of Farmer, and it would reverse a whole lot of cases. So, they refused to hear it.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:38:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
Another revolution has my vote. I surely don't want future generations fighting and dictating what rights we may have. Think of how many rights people freely give up now? Imagine another Bill of Rights written by some 20 something Ivy League lawyer. Scary huh? I would rather fight right now.

I know of some class 3 people who are voting for dems and pressing them to pass outright gun control and pushing for bans. They want this to happen right now. Then they can fight instead of waiting for the grandkids to do it. Part of me agrees. Right now, we are bleeding from a thousand cuts. Maybe it is better to amputate and then cut the head off the beast.





Interesting thoughts. They're pretty much in line with my thoughts; I'd rather get this shit over with now than have to go through it when I'm 75 and all I can do is sit around in Sun City West on oxygen and try not to choke on my tapioca.

Question is: who gets "voted for from the rooftops" first?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:55:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Turn in a Form to Manufacture a MG. When the ATF turns you down, sue pointing at Miller saying they can't turn you down 'cause of that.

This is exactly what happened in the case I could not remember the name of.

It was J.D. Farmer vs. ATF. Farmer (Hard Times Armory of Georgia).

Stephan Halbrook had an ironclad case. Supremes read his briefs, knew they could only vote in favor of Farmer, and it would reverse a whole lot of cases. So, they refused to hear it.



I read the appellate court decision and fail to see how there was any "ironclad case". Perhaps you could expound with links?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:30:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm 27. Hell no.
If I was 87, whole new ballgame.



Great for Bubba. An 87 year old man would be much easier to ass rape. Don't think that age would deter him. I don't think it's about sex appeal



I don't think an 87 year old guilty of a mere NFA violation would get sent to hard-core prison, and for a while at that.
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