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Posted: 10/5/2005 8:23:23 AM EDT
I guy in my infantry unit has been telling me about the initial tryout, PT test, Land nav, 12 mile ruck, CWST (or maybe its just a swim test)

Anyways the first stage doesn't seem that tough to pass, although I hear the ruck march is what gets alot of people. He wasn't allowed to wear a watch so he doesn't know what passing is.

I was thinking they are probably looking that you finish it in 2.5 hours?

Sounds like they really need guys...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:20:40 AM EDT
bump
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:27:15 AM EDT
Not guys with girlfriend trouble though....
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:29:42 AM EDT
I drove past a LRS det HQ yesterday and almost stopped...then decided I'm not that fond of running anyway.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:01:52 AM EDT
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:03:06 AM EDT
What's the worst that can happen if you apply? You pass, spend a year in training, then get sent to Iraq....

All I know is it's not for me!

NTM
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:35:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units




Is this something that you know for a fact or are you just blowing sunshine up everyone's ass?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:51:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units




Could somebody throw things at this guy?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:52:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:56:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



WTF? I guess my National Guard infantry unit are just a bunch of fucked up yokels running around circles looking like keystone cops. We get no complaints from the RA infantry unit we operate with on a daily basis, nor from the ODA we work with, or from the Hajis we kill. All of my SLs, my PSG, and several of my TLs and Joes have RA time under their belt, and this is something we have talked about, and they think we are just as good as any leg RA unit. We aren't the friggin Rangers or the 82nd, but we get the job done.

There are banged up units on both sides of the fence. If the NG was such a cluster then we wouldn't be getting sent to Iraq/Afghanistan as combat units, and not just dribs and drabs. but over 40% of boots on the ground, and a division HQ to boot.

Ok, I am done ranting. Take a knee, drink water, buy new running shoes.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:58:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 4:12:34 PM EDT by Dave_A]
--

delete needs to come back...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:58:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 3:59:01 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



I assume making a comment like that you must pretty "high speed"
Or just another Chairforce soldier based out of Fort livingroom. Do tell.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:58:58 PM EDT
Im going through the process to enter the 20th SF group as a "non prior", am waiting to go to MEPs and take my ASVAB. you have to score a min of i think 125 on the ASVAB.
ALL SF soldiers are held to the same standard no matter if you are active or guard. Guard SF doesnt do the standard 1 weekend a month deal, I think its close to a week. Their deployments are generaly shorter than reg guard butmore freqeunt which the deployments also include training.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:59:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:14:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Drink Water, stay motivated



The apparent Army cure for every problem....

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:26:08 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:27:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 4:28:35 PM EDT by FMJshooter]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Drink Water, stay motivated



The apparent Army cure for every problem....





Too true.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:46:28 PM EDT
I wouldn't say SF guard needs guys, but we are always looking for them. My unit is well over 100% strength and 90%+ active duty experienced. > 50% have two combat tours. Probably >70% Ranger qualified.

This is not the post vietnam military. The guard and reserves are getting or have gotten things sorted out. Most are solid units who just need a little touch up prior to deployment. Sure some are soup, but most are doing fine in the war.

If you can APFT at 90% each event, and do 12 in <3 with 55-70# you might as well give them a try for a weekend. But before you go to selection or the course, know it's really what you want to do. A year is a long time if you are not truly motivated.

You will go to war, now you get to go with SF.

Not for everybody.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:47:34 PM EDT
Once mobilized, a National Guard Soldier is an 'active duty' Soldier until demobilized.

A Soldier is a Soldier. Battle makes no distinctions.

As a retired Regular Army officer, I have nothing but respect for the outstanding young men and women of the National Guard and US Army Reserve who stand shoulder to shoulder with their RA brothers and sisters.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:50:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



Do you base this on anything other than the fact that your head is so far up your ass you wouldn't know if either one was choking your neck?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:54:34 PM EDT
JMBoom ,
If I wasn't so tired I'd give a f**k enough about your opinion to post a reply instead I'll just second the guy who wants shit thrown at you.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:58:40 PM EDT
Is the raised age limit applicable to these slots? AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:03:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



Ladies and gentlemen... this man is a dumbass.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:09:15 PM EDT
SOF had an article some time ago about a NG SF unit operating in Afgainistan. They were mostly older guys...

But other troops who were RA and interviewed for the article had nothing but praise for these guys ability to do their jobs, and the professional manner in which they conducted themselves, both on operations and "off duty" (whatever that means over there...).

Speaking for the Chairborne contingent of the board... I say go for it if you can! Good luck
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:38:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 8:54:11 PM EDT by kaizoku]

Originally Posted By tac45:
Im going through the process to enter the 20th SF group as a "non prior", am waiting to go to MEPs and take my ASVAB. you have to score a min of i think 125 on the ASVAB.
ALL SF soldiers are held to the same standard no matter if you are active or guard. Guard SF doesnt do the standard 1 weekend a month deal, I think its close to a week. Their deployments are generaly shorter than reg guard butmore freqeunt which the deployments also include training.



The highest anyone can score on the ASVAB is 99.

You might be referring to the GT score of 110 that is required though, which is figured from taking the ASVAB.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:57:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 9:06:52 PM EDT by barkley-addict]
I was in B co of the 19th sf in ceredo wv for 6 years.

I disagree to a point that national guard aren't equal to active forces, depends on the situation.
As for national guard infantry, they might not be equal to forces who train actively, but. when deployed in my opinion they are equal, they have 6 months intensive training before deployment, and many soldiers and marines in active units deploy after only 3 months of boot camp.

National guard sf qualify through the active duty course, from boot camp to jump school through the duration of q course. I would agree that there is no equal to doing special ops missions full time in real situations through war or peacetime though. So that is a big edge for active duty sf, but qualifed national guard sf are obviously capable soliders, they have to be exceptional soliders or they wouldn't pass the q course.

As for sf national guard units, they tend to be much better funded than other national guard or reserve units, and have a lot of good training on the weekends and go to some hot spots for their yearly training.

I was in from '86 to '93, enlisted directly into an 18B weapons position with the unit, attended drill for 6 months before going to bootcamp infantry school at ft. benning, jump school and straight to ft. bragg.
The q course then had no selection, but weeded people out through a harsher phase 1, which had 5 graded must pass skills,
extensive land nav and map reading written test,
the tough land nav test itself which accounted for almost 75 % of candidate failures,
obstacle course, which was very hard but don't know of anyone ever failing
patrolling written test
and the 5 day patrolling excercise where you had to pass as patrol leader and assistant patrol leader on a mission.
The q course was almost culture shock in ways considering it had only been 2 months since I was in boot camp. It was like attempting to run when you hardly could walk.

That was around 1st or 2nd year that they permitted E-1s in sf training.
Prior to the realization that special ops was the future of the u.s. military around the early to mid '80s, special forces was old school, you had to be an e - 5 or higher in rank and had to be from a combat related unit to attend training.
So privates were really frowned upon then, and that's really an understatment. It was hard to earn any respect among your peers as a private. I could tell you some stories about being an e - 2 going through phase 1.
It was also difficult because the mentality and maturity of most trainees was considerably higher than that of a private just out of bootcamp, as well as the military experience factor.
Sf is about teaching others to be soliders, so vast experience is expected which makes in really impractical that a solider without experience can really do well in my honest opinion.
I would guess that's still the case with trainees present day as well even though the q course is structured differently and they have s.e.r.e. and language with the q course also.

I was recycled the 1st time after a no go on the patrolling excercise, and passed phase 1 the 2nd time.
However we had a very low number of weapons students return from phase 1 out of only 55 out of the original 300 some who started it, maybe only 7 of us werer weapons, so they rotated us to the company that was forming up for the up coming phase 1 to await enough weapons students to start a phase 2 weapons class.

during those 2 months we were put on cq duty, 24 hours on 48 off, and I ended up getting my jaws fractured in a fight awaiting phase 2 and had to be relieved from my initial active duty training. Never did make it back down to start phase 2 for 1 reason or another, and in '93 was realeased from the national guard and enlisted into the navy to attend buds.

I'll never forget those 2 cycles of phase 1 though, the experiences and stories particulary from the land nav week and tests are always great to recall.
Anyone who's attended phase 1 of the qb course knows camp macall's huts and the grinder, and recognizes nouns such as draw monsters, baggett lake, 3 and 4 wire road, ect.

I'm certain some things have changed but don't know how much.
......
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:59:33 PM EDT
"AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?"

I'm not a recruiter but I'd guess absolutely, it's a more mature unit anyhow and it's all about mental strength and physical endurance, something that increases with age.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:16:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Drink Water, stay motivated



The apparent Army cure for every problem....






Don't forget the Motrin.


And the combat lifesaver-initiated IVs...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:57:48 PM EDT
The full time units might be getting more experience but the guard guys can bring something totally different to the table that is just as if not more valuable. Dont forget these guys have a full time job when they're not SF, I've heard of NASA rocket scientists, architects, doctors, firefighters, ATF agents and many other Fed and local LEOs.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:33:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tac45:
The full time units might be getting more experience but the guard guys can bring something totally different to the table that is just as if not more valuable. Dont forget these guys have a full time job when they're not SF, I've heard of NASA rocket scientists, architects, doctors, firefighters, ATF agents and many other Fed and local LEOs.



An ATF agent serving under the motto "De Oppresso Liber"?

The word ironic comes to mind.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:47:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



On behalf of everyone in my NG unit, I would like to extend you a warm and hearty FUCK YOU... Jus' saying.. of course...(Obeying the CoC) *Innocent look*
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:05:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
--

delete needs to come back...

Second the motion.

I miss that button.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:53:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 8:09:29 AM EDT by jmboom]
Damn, I did state in my opinion. And you know what they say opinions are like well you know. I am stating it on what I have seen. When I got out in 2000, I was given a option of going inactive or active reserve. I went to the nearest national guard unit and needless to say well I'll leave it at that. You can say what you want but I decided I would be better off staying in the inactive reserve. And yes I have served so I am not a chair borne whatever. I have served in some pretty high speed units that I am very proud of one would be the Joint Security Area in Pan mun Jom Korea. Like I said before you can bash me all you want and if I did offend someone I apologize for that but It is my opinion.

ETA 11 Bravo Papa here
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:14:22 AM EDT
And to add one more thing before the bashing resumes. I'm not saying the troopers are the problem. What I am saying is back when I was looking around the national guard looked under trained and equipped poorly. The funding was just not there. For christ sake they were still using starlight scopes and M16A1's. And they rarely PT'd, Now let the bashing resume.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:36:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



Sir, sir, your rectum is speaking.

SF NG units were at the forefront of the war in Afghanistan. Whether deployed to augment active duty teams or deployed as intact units. There is no diffirentiation when they were deployed.

Or did you mean the NG Infantry units now fighting in Iraq?
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:44:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 8:47:56 AM EDT by bcw107]

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units




Could somebody throw things at this guy?



That's what I was thinking.

Undertrained and underequipped? That's the whole fucking army! BTDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:52:03 AM EDT

"AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?"


Unless I am mistaken the SF Q-Course is only available to people 34 and younger.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:27:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bcw107:

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units




Could somebody throw things at this guy?



That's what I was thinking.

Undertrained and underequipped? That's the whole fucking army! BTDT




I don't know what Regular Army Unit you were in but I can never once say that any airborne or other light infantry unit I was with was ever "Undertrained or Underequipped".
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:28:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TimJ:

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



Sir, sir, your rectum is speaking.

SF NG units were at the forefront of the war in Afghanistan. Whether deployed to augment active duty teams or deployed as intact units. There is no diffirentiation when they were deployed.

Or did you mean the NG Infantry units now fighting in Iraq?



I am speaking from experiance NG Infantry units. I am speaking though my rectum as you call it about NG SF units.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:35:02 AM EDT
Without the National Guard and Reserves, our troop strength would be painfully low.

Too bad it took a war for most people to see that the reserve component are not just a bunch of "weekend warriors".
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:44:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:
Without the National Guard and Reserves, our troop strength would be painfully low.

Too bad it took a war for most people to see that the reserve component are not just a bunch of "weekend warriors".



It took the war for that to happen. Before the war there wasnt enough funding or for that matter care from the Federal Government. Our entire military was meant for the reserve and national guard to be the back bone of our military but the highier ups totally forgot about them.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:48:36 AM EDT

I don't know what Regular Army Unit you were in but I can never once say that any airborne or other light infantry unit I was with was ever "Undertrained or Underequipped".

Mortar Platoon, HHC 1st Battalion-67th Armor Regiment, Warhorse Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division (recolored from 3-70 AR, 5th ID in 1993, then from 1-67 AR, 2nd AD in 1996).
1993-1996

Your turn.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:51:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Warpiper:

"AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?"


Unless I am mistaken the SF Q-Course is only available to people 34 and younger.



SFQC is open to anyone meeting time/rank and other requirements, and passing an SF physical.
Just had 42 or 43 year old graduate this year.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 9:54:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 9:56:02 AM EDT by jmboom]

Originally Posted By bcw107:
I don't know what Regular Army Unit you were in but I can never once say that any airborne or other light infantry unit I was with was ever "Undertrained or Underequipped".

Mortar Platoon, HHC 1st Battalion-67th Armor Regiment, Warhorse Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division (recolored from 3-70 AR, 5th ID in 1993, then from 1-67 AR, 2nd AD in 1996).
1993-1996

Your turn.



So you were undertrained and underequipped?

My last duty assingment United Nations Command Security Force--Joint Security Area 1997 to 1999

IN FRONT OF THEM ALL!

ETA: I believe they turned Camp Bonifas and the MDL over to the South Koreans so
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:16:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Warpiper:

"AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?"


Unless I am mistaken the SF Q-Course is only available to people 34 and younger.



You are mistaken. There is no age limit for the Q-course. Initial enlistments to the 18X may have restrictions but not the course itself.

We have put three guys in their 40s through in the last two years. (All prior service)

BTW just put a 52yo out of a ch-47, 27 year break in service. AIRBORNE.


IMO the only way to do SF is through the guard. Not the 18X but after already in. Even if you are active duty, getting out and getting into the guard to go to the course is a good idea. Then just go back active if you want. I personally would not suggest the 18x program.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:24:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 11:29:45 AM EDT by KNEESINTHEBREEZE]

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units



Take a knee and drink water, highspeed. You're about as much authority on that as Barney the dinosaur is to hostage rescue. Come talk to our SF guys about that subject at ArmyParatrooper.org. All units are underequipped, including SF and Airbore units, although the degrees of it vary.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:28:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:

Originally Posted By jmboom:
IMO I don't believe the national guard SF units are like the RA SF units. Its like comparing the RA infantry units to national gaurd infantry units




Is this something that you know for a fact or are you just blowing sunshine up everyone's ass?



he's full of shit
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:33:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:58:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:

Originally Posted By Warpiper:

"AKA would a 34 year old have a prayer of getting into one of these units with no prior experience?"


Unless I am mistaken the SF Q-Course is only available to people 34 and younger.



You are mistaken. There is no age limit for the Q-course. Initial enlistments to the 18X may have restrictions but not the course itself.

We have put three guys in their 40s through in the last two years. (All prior service)

BTW just put a 52yo out of a ch-47, 27 year break in service. AIRBORNE.


IMO the only way to do SF is through the guard. Not the 18X but after already in. Even if you are active duty, getting out and getting into the guard to go to the course is a good idea. Then just go back active if you want. I personally would not suggest the 18x program.



Why don't you suggest the 18x program?

Would you mind explaining why you think going SF NG is a better way?

Sent you an IM, BTW.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:00:39 PM EDT
18x - Too many chances of failing with no way to come back.

If you are already in the guard you can try SFAS without any problems if you don't make it. Then if you are motivated you can try again and again.

The big problem is injuries, too many chances to get hurt and wash out with no recourse.

With the normal route through the guard you have time between MOS and SFAS, time before and after Airborne, etc. It's just a lot safer way to do it.

My units success rate for sending guys to SFAS/Q course is well over 70%. 18X probably have less than 10% make it start to finish. And then if you do it through active duty, they already own you, so then you find yourself at the mercy of the army for the rest of your contract.

With the guard you have far far more control over your fate. Then like I said if you make it and like it go active duty.

SF is supposed to be about being smarter. The smart route is the one with the greatest chance of success, and the best options upon failure.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:12:14 PM EDT
Wow, that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the explanation.

Do you know how long the wait from initial NG sign-up to SFAS is?

Is 11b the best route to go, or can any NG MOS apply to attend SFAS?

Guess I better call the recruiter...
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