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Posted: 5/6/2004 5:24:25 PM EST
Some kind of womens studies type feminist wrote a definitely pro gun editorial in todays USA Today.
She compared the right to abortion to the right to carry a gun, and how both were fundamental types of choice and rights.

I was flabbergasted at lunch while reading this

I believe this is and will be the only time I will ever endorse a feminazi and her viewpoint. Well, at least half of it anyway... you go you birkenstockwearingunshavenleggedhairychinnedu­berfeminist!!

So, anyone else read it??


Dram
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:29:28 PM EST
No but I would love to write her an email praising her viewpoint and encourage her to spread that message within "her" group of influence.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:31:23 PM EST


Good for her. If it has her email address in there we should all send her a big thanks!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:31:40 PM EST
I don't think the two are even close to the same.

I am very pro gun and very anti abortion. My beleif in abortion has nothing to do with it. I don't remember reading about the founding fathers stating their opinon about abortion. Or using abortion to keep a runaway govt in check.


Bobwrench


'tis better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:31:43 PM EST
Read it!

Strange!

What's the world coming to when common sense gets published? I was facinated with her logic. I'm not abortion fan, but I believe (like my gun safe) the government should stay out of it.

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:31:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:33:32 PM EST
I agree that they go hand in hand, sort of.

One is, IMO, a 10th amendment states right issues, and also an issue of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" Granted that can be argued that its not in the best interest of the life getting its brain scrambled.

The other is a 2nd amendment issue.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:36:44 PM EST
Mary Zeiss Stange
Associate Professor Women's Studies and Religion
Skidmore College

mstange@skidmore.edu
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:36:44 PM EST
Haven't read it, but don't be surprised.

There is a growing group of women who, while they are reluctant to take on the name because of recent stereotypes, are feminists in the true meaning of the word. They believe in supporting women and making sure that women are treated equally, but do not adhere to the belief that equal rights means special rights for women, or any other group of people. These women believe that women need to be taught to be responsible for their actions, and do NOT advocate or support women who go around looking for reasons to be victims. They believe that women need to get a backbone and stop looking for reasons to feel discriminated against, they do NOT fall apart when someone tells a dirty joke, they do NOT hate men, and they DO take responsibility for themselves, without looking for someone else to blame.

They do NOT believe that a woman has a right to "have it all", and understand that women need to prioritize their lives. If career is most important, then don't try to have a family, because it won't work. If they want to work and have a family, fine, but do not expect to become a partner in a law firm while only working four days a week. They also understand and respect a woman's choice to stay home with the kids, understanding that she has put her family first, and that it is an extremely honourable decision. These "feminists" believe that it is important that young women be taught the ramifications of either of these three choices, and make it clear that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to have a spectacular career and a successful family.

These women are definately in support of the right to protect yourself, and are more and more arming themselves. My aunt is as liberal as anything, but she is also a fierce supporter of the right to bear arms and has a CCW. She and others like her see it as an obligation to actively seek out ways to protect themselves instead of depending on anyone else to do so.

I think that you will see more and more of these women coming out in support of RKBA, I am running into more and more of these women in my life, even here in California!

Link Posted: 5/6/2004 5:54:33 PM EST
Dramborleg:I think this is the story:
==============================================================================
www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20040506/6178571s.htm

Page 13A

Guns, like abortion, are a matter of choice

By Mary Zeiss Stange

Two Sundays ago, hundreds of thousands of women converged on Washington, D.C., in what was billed as a March for Women's Lives. As a demonstration for reproductive rights, the event was about much more than abortion. The marchers' placards evoked a broad range of issues relating to women's health and security. Yet one issue curiously absent from the day's agenda was the pervasive violence against women and girls.

That theme will figure prominently in the next big demonstration, scheduled for Sunday, when the Million Mom March organization will gather on the west lawn of the Capitol for the ''Mother's Day March to Halt the Assault.''

The marchers plan to pressure Congress to extend the federal ban on assault weapons, which is set to expire in September. For many people -- including the liberal-minded politicians and celebrities on whom organizers count to attract publicity -- the two marches, one pro-abortion rights and the other anti-gun, will be on a seamless ideological continuum.

But they shouldn't be.

The option of arming oneself for protection is a matter of personal choice in many of the same ways, and for the same reasons, as the option of ending a pregnancy.

Million Mom founder Donna Dees-Thomases has issued the dire warning that if the ban expires, ''terrorists, drug lords and the mentally unstable will be able to stock up on assault weapons that can wipe out a schoolyard full of kids in a matter of minutes.''

True, perhaps, in theory. But practically speaking, most criminals use guns against one another. Assault weapons rarely figure in domestic violence or other forms of violence against women or children. Guns of any kind (primarily handguns) are used in only 4% of rapes/sexual assaults. Abusers are more likely to stab, strangle or bludgeon their female victims to death than to shoot them. Gun accidents happen, and every one of them is a tragedy, but data consistently show that far greater threats to children exist: automobiles, improperly stored household chemicals, even unattended swimming pools.

This is not to say that guns and their use and control are not women's issues.

In fact, women should take guns seriously when it comes to saving their own or their children's lives.

We live in a world where more and more women are unaccompanied at odd hours, or they are vulnerable in dangerous places -- a world where restraining orders are often ineffective and the police cannot be counted upon to arrive in time, if at all.

In such a world, women must be able to protect themselves. In terms of both deterrence and lethal force, guns are among the most effective tools available for self-defense.

In legal literature, arguments for reproductive rights and gun rights are often virtually identical. Constitutional law scholar Nicholas Johnson of Fordham University Law School has shown how abortion and gun activists generally appeal to the same principles:

* The right to self-defense against bodily harm or invasion.

* The right to protect one's own physical integrity.

* The right to personal autonomy and self-determination.

* The right to make private choices regarding life decisions.

The similarities between abortion and armed self-defense don't end there. In either case, a woman is likely to confront a waiting period. She may have to apply for a permit, gain someone else's permission or offer proof of mental competence. Depending on where she lives, she may find her access to abortion and/or to a handgun sharply limited.

Activists who remember the pre-Roe vs. Wade days of back-alley abortions argue that increasing the restrictions on abortion, through such means as the partial-birth abortion ban signed into law by President Bush late last year, will, over time, place more women and their doctors in the position of breaking the law.

Those who oppose strict gun regulation similarly argue that it places law-abiding citizens in the position of becoming de facto outlaws. In a survey of gun-owning women by Women & Guns magazine, 87% of the respondents said they would carry a concealed firearm illegally if they felt it necessary for their safety.

It is odd that when it comes to gun control, feminists welcome the same sorts of government intrusion on individual rights that they rightly abhor when it comes to reproductive freedom.

Yet taking the fight for women's lives seriously means defending their right to take control over every aspect of their individual health and safety. Reproductive choice and the ability to defend oneself, whatever that may take, are not simply women's rights. They are essential human rights.

Many proponents of reproductive rights wish abortion were never necessary. Most gun-rights advocates would prefer to live in a world in which no woman should need a gun to ensure her safety. But as long as contraception fails, as long as rape occurs, as long as men abduct women, stalk ex-wives and girlfriends and threaten harm to their children, the options to choose an abortion and a gun must equally remain fundamental women's rights.

Both are rights worth fighting for.

Mary Zeiss Stange teaches Women's Studies and Religion at Skidmore College. She is co-author of Gun Women: Firearms and Feminism in Contemporary America and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:08:30 PM EST
Pretty good stuff eh?

I could do without the abortion slant but anyone who is the enemy of my enemy is my reluctant friend.


Hooray for us, the feminists are waking up.

Dram
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:13:54 PM EST
Careful... They might arm themselves and shoot off all PEE PEE's
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:16:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:17:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
Careful... They might arm themselves and shoot off all PEE PEE's



Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:32:16 PM EST
Thank you, Mary Zeiss Stange, for taking on the accepted wisdom of the "feminists."
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:39:11 PM EST
Holy Sh**!!

An editorial that actually agrees with my position!!


Someone get me a fainting couch!
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:57:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By bobwrench:
I don't think the two are even close to the same.

I am very pro gun and very anti abortion. My beleif in abortion has nothing to do with it. I don't remember reading about the founding fathers stating their opinon about abortion. Or using abortion to keep a runaway govt in check.


Bobwrench


'tis better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.



In other words, don't tell me whether I can have guns, but I can tell you what life choices to make.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 6:57:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:00:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By MickeyMouse:
I couldn't agree more with this lady!! I am as pro abortion as I am pro gun. While she defined them as a choice, I prefer to think of my rights as just that, RIGHTS. Not "granted" or "permitted" by the government but something from the dawn of time - given by a a higher power, God, if you please.

My next effort at this keyboard will be an e-mail of support!



What she is saying is that we all still can make a choice to exercise our rights. Even though we have those rights, a lot of people choose not to exercise them.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:04:03 PM EST
As far as abortion goes, I think its disgusting and morally reprehensible, but the government should not be involved in the issue at all.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:29:50 PM EST
I e-mailed her a short thank you for the positive gun article. It helps to have this in the USA Today.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:32:56 PM EST
Liberals are so desperate to triangulate and trick voters. Equating abortion with gun ownership? I have a right to protect myself from someone trying to kill me. Whom does a fetus pose a mortal threat to?
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:35:00 PM EST
Feminists, apparently.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:36:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
No but I would love to write her an email praising her viewpoint and encourage her to spread that message within "her" group of influence.




YES, YES, YES, we need as many folks on our side as we can, but they aren't going to listen to one of "us," but they will perhaps at least listen to one of their own.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 7:49:48 PM EST
Finally a feminist that gets it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 8:58:20 PM EST
I agree.

Personally, I hate abortion, but I don't think the gov't should be involved either. I don't recall seeing it explicitly stated in the Constitution.


There need to be MORE feminists like this.

This line

Yet one issue curiously absent from the day's agenda was the pervasive violence against women and girls.
is spot on. Penn State currently has a sexual assault problem. A fairly large one. And the women on campus, especially from the obviously feminist "Women's Studies" department bitch and moan about every little thing to do with it. Even wussy little "self defense" classes that are nearly useless.

Yet not one of them has stood up and said "Hey, let's just shoot the bastards!" Editorials, written by men largely, in the school paper suggesting getting a damn gun have largely been ridiculed. Number 1 excuse was "the police are here to protect us!" which prompted an editorial from me citing case law to the contrary.

But damnit girls, start standing up for yourself and start packing. Couple dead rapists would do the town good.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:06:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
No but I would love to write her an email praising her viewpoint and encourage her to spread that message within "her" group of influence.




YES, YES, YES, we need as many folks on our side as we can, but they aren't going to listen to one of "us," but they will perhaps at least listen to one of their own.



In my email to her, I thanked her for her work with women, and hoped she continued it as they would be more receptive to progun statements from her than "us"
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 4:13:08 AM EST
Wendy McElroy (self proclaimed 'iFeminist') runs a website: www.ifeminists.net/index.php She gets editorials published on foxnews.com every now and then. She's amazing. Pro-gun, well spoken and is very sick of the traditional 'feminist' stigma. Every now and then she even writes an article explaining how men are getting shafted thanks to the radical feminist movement.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:33:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Liberals are so desperate to triangulate and trick voters. Equating abortion with gun ownership? I have a right to protect myself from someone trying to kill me. Whom does a fetus pose a mortal threat to?



Bad argument. The Federal Constitution does not give congress the authority to regulate abortion and under the 9th and tenth amendments is reserves those rights to the individual and to the states. About the only grounds the federal government has to regulate abortion is to invest fetuses with civil rights.

I consider abortion to be reprehensible in 95% of cases or more, but I also believe that the choice must remain available and that the government has no authority to regulate it. That so many women choose to have abortions is NOT a legal issue so much as it is a moral crisis.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:45:12 AM EST
She is following the Feminist Doctrine to the letter; Men bad, Women good.
See the line in in the next-to-last paragraph-"As long as rape occurs, as long as MEN abduct WOMEN, stalk ex-wives and girlfriends and threaten to harm their children, blah blah blah"
She is completely within the feminist paradigm. Lets not loose sight of the fact that she is talking about shooting MEN. Not, as we Gun Rights Advocates would believe anyone who who poses a serious threat, or a tyrannical government, MEN!

Be careful of whom you would agree with. I personally don't trust Feminists as far as i could throw 'em. Which ain't very far, if you seen some of the Woman's Studies professors I seen!

RB out
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 5:54:40 AM EST
It took about 30 years, but feminists are finally realizing that “empowered words” will not stop a rapist or killer.

Nice.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:42:45 AM EST
Gun Women: Firearms and Feminism in Contemporary America
by Mary Zeiss Stange, Carol K. Oyster

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814797601/



ook Description
Women, we are told, should not own guns. Women, we are told, are more likely to be injured by their own guns than to fend off an attack themselves. This "fact" is rooted in a fundamental assumption of female weakness and vulnerability. Why should a woman not be every bit as capable as a man of using a firearm in self-defense?

And yet the reality is that millions of American women--somewhere between 11,000,000 and 17,000,000--use guns confidently and competently every day. Women are hunting, using firearms in their work as policewomen and in the military, shooting for sport, and arming themselves for personal security in ever-increasing numbers. What motivates women to possess firearms? What is their relationship to their guns? And who exactly are these women? Crucially, can a woman be a gun-owner and a feminist too?

Women's growing tendency to arm themselves has in recent years been political fodder for both the right and the left. Female gun owners are frequently painted as "trying to be like men" (the conservative perspective) or "capitulating to patriarchal ideas about power" (the liberal critique). Eschewing the polar extremes in the heated debate over gun ownership and gun control, and linking firearms and feminism in novel fashion, Mary Zeiss Stange and Carol K. Oyster here cut through the rhetoric to paint a precise and unflinching account of America's gun women.



Link Posted: 5/7/2004 7:56:50 AM EST
I have a huge problem with equating gun ownership with the abortion debate.

It all hinges around when you think a fetus is alive ... sentient... and I think it happens the second the egg is fertilized.

Gun ownership does not = abortion rights. I think it's rationalizing. IMHO abortion rights activists sleep at night only because they think it's the MOTHER's body and thus her choice... and that a baby is only "human" when they breathe air for the first time (or something along those lines).

I know there's room for more than one viewpoint on most subjects but this is one I feel strongly about.

jim (aggessively pro-gun, pro-life, pro-death penalty)
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 8:21:58 AM EST
So how many WOMEN abduct other WOMEN to rape them, stalk them and threaten to harm their children?

Get real, it's a valid point and is a real world problem to WOMEN.

You are looking for any reason to not agree with a woman.



Originally Posted By RogerBall:
She is following the Feminist Doctrine to the letter; Men bad, Women good.
See the line in in the next-to-last paragraph-"As long as rape occurs, as long as MEN abduct WOMEN, stalk ex-wives and girlfriends and threaten to harm their children, blah blah blah"
She is completely within the feminist paradigm. Lets not loose sight of the fact that she is talking about shooting MEN. Not, as we Gun Rights Advocates would believe anyone who who poses a serious threat, or a tyrannical government, MEN!

Be careful of whom you would agree with. I personally don't trust Feminists as far as i could throw 'em. Which ain't very far, if you seen some of the Woman's Studies professors I seen!

RB out

Link Posted: 5/7/2004 11:45:28 AM EST
Yea, what KA3B said.

As a Philosophy/Law major & Women’s studies minor finishing school right now, trust me when I say there are plenty of feminists to hate, and this brand, is not one. We need just this kind of support to further our cause.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 1:42:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
I have a huge problem with equating gun ownership with the abortion debate.

It all hinges around when you think a fetus is alive ... sentient... and I think it happens the second the egg is fertilized.

Gun ownership does not = abortion rights. I think it's rationalizing. IMHO abortion rights activists sleep at night only because they think it's the MOTHER's body and thus her choice... and that a baby is only "human" when they breathe air for the first time (or something along those lines).

I know there's room for more than one viewpoint on most subjects but this is one I feel strongly about.

jim (aggessively pro-gun, pro-life, pro-death penalty)

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. SOS.

Basically, it is none of your business nor mine.
Link Posted: 5/7/2004 2:02:44 PM EST
Fine... but sometimes the adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't ring true.

Not to say pro-abortion people are the enemy... just that I think perhaps some of you are selling your souls for an apparent friend. E.G. John Kerry is supposedly "pro gun" too.

Think about it... this is rather ingenius on her part. To be a conservative generally means you're pro life, pro gun. By equating pro choice with pro gun... well, that's subdividing us. Weakening us.

If it is none of your business or mine, well, there shouldn't have been a single reply to the original post. I stated my belief and opinion, you did yours.

jim
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