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Posted: 2/13/2013 4:38:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 4:45:59 AM EDT
You telling me you can't just land in a foot of snow?
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 5:43:02 AM EDT
Pilot did a great job. It sucks for him though. If you read the description of the video, it says that his insurance expired the day before.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 5:56:49 AM EDT
What happened to the highway that was in the start of the video?

Not trying to MMQ the guy, but that highway looked pretty good to me.

Link Posted: 2/13/2013 7:44:52 AM EDT
Any landing you walk away from is a good landing, right?


Everytime I hear that expression I reply...

"Good? No, but it's better than one you don't walk away from."
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 10:44:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By us-kiwi:
What happened to the highway that was in the start of the video?

Not trying to MMQ the guy, but that highway looked pretty good to me.



I thought the exact same thing. I know that people (self included) overlook things in the midst of a crisis, but that road was definitely a better option than the field. I think the problem is that general aviation doesn't emphasize landing on a road in training, if anything the opposite is true. When I was working on my private ticket I was berated for choosing a two-lane county road over a (muddy) plowed field. I didn't argue with the instructor, but I always felt that choosing an option that practically guarantees damage to the aircraft and some measure of risk to the occupants over a paved surface is a foolish practice...
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 10:53:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By us-kiwi:
What happened to the highway that was in the start of the video?

Not trying to MMQ the guy, but that highway looked pretty good to me.



Seriously... That's exactly what I was thinking. You know we're not dealing with a terribly experienced pilot when he's got the checklist out to negotiate carburetor icing. Pull the carb heat out. It's right next to the throttle. It doesn't take that long to clear up carb ice. He had a good amount of altitude, unlimited visibility, was in control of the aircraft, with a long ass highway next to him. I know the guys comments insist that the pilot was very experienced, and the highway was really big and too dangerous but... ththththththtthpppppp.
Another discrepancy that stands out to me is that it would seem that the environment seen in the video isn't really conducive to carb ice. I seem to recall that carb ice is most likely to occur between 50 to 70 degrees F with a relative humidity of something like 50% or more. He's flying over Utah in February. It's crystal clear out. Looks like very cold dry air to me. I gotta wonder if there wasn't some other mechanical issue that went undiagnosed. No matter. I'm still thinking this didn't have to end up with a crash.
I'm chalking this one up to a lack of ADM.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 11:14:59 AM EDT
I thought Utah as soon as I looked at the video. Reminded me of my 60 hours I spent training in Cedar City. Even the dude looked familiar. Glad they were all fine. I agree wrong spot though.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 11:47:18 AM EDT
Options...

Link Posted: 2/13/2013 1:20:47 PM EDT


Looks like the best option but that road is super busy. I would agree that a hard surface would be better but then I think about the scene I went to where the plane was hit by two cars landing on a busy road and somehow the semi just missed him. Luckily they only hit the wings and he survived but multiple people should've died. I'll see if I can find the pictures.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 1:40:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2013 1:40:50 PM EDT by flaperon]
I'd say he played it safe...did not hit a powerline and did not hit a churchbus full of kids.

If indeed his insurance had expired, any property damage may have set him back a lifetime or two.

Yeah, looks a bit dry for carb ice...
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 1:43:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cutter29:


Looks like the best option but that road is super busy. I would agree that a hard surface would be better but then I think about the scene I went to where the plane was hit by two cars landing on a busy road and somehow the semi just missed him. Luckily they only hit the wings and he survived but multiple people should've died. I'll see if I can find the pictures.


Sitting here on my couch, my plan would be to pick any road that had no sign of power lines. I would set up to land, and if I got to a decision height and it didn't look good, I would veer off and crash in the snow. I would make crashing in the snow my final option, not my first choice (here on my couch).
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 4:07:58 PM EDT
really sorry about your plane man....
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 4:40:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By Cutter29:


Looks like the best option but that road is super busy. I would agree that a hard surface would be better but then I think about the scene I went to where the plane was hit by two cars landing on a busy road and somehow the semi just missed him. Luckily they only hit the wings and he survived but multiple people should've died. I'll see if I can find the pictures.


Sitting here on my couch, my plan would be to pick any road that had no sign of power lines. I would set up to land, and if I got to a decision height and it didn't look good, I would veer off and crash in the snow. I would make crashing in the snow my final option, not my first choice (here on my couch).


Exactly. If you line up for a road, you can always (well, 6/10 times it works every time) go left or right if things start to look bad.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 5:15:41 PM EDT
I read somewhere you only need 40ft to stop from 60kts and still survive.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 5:18:21 PM EDT
Typically there are not a lot of lines crossing over rural roads- the straight stretch where there aren't any houses is unlikely to have a wire problem and he had enough altitude to recon a stretch. Was he even using flaps? I gotta go back and look again, but I don't recall the flaps being deployed.
Link Posted: 2/13/2013 10:04:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Skrutinizr:
Typically there are not a lot of lines crossing over rural roads- the straight stretch where there aren't any houses is unlikely to have a wire problem and he had enough altitude to recon a stretch. Was he even using flaps? I gotta go back and look again, but I don't recall the flaps being deployed.


Well seeing the picture of the plane from the link above the flaps weren't deployed.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 6:53:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a555:
I read somewhere you only need 40ft to stop from 60kts and still survive.


I think I'll stay with the helicopter and touch down with minimal if any forward speed
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 7:07:45 AM EDT
Its a 175 I think, so old and a geared engine, if original. Don't recall how prone they may or may not be to carb ice. I was a bit surprised at the descent rate when they hit - I'd like to think I would have tried to flatten that out a bit.

Everyones OK - all that matters I guess.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:57:21 AM EDT
Not sure who is luckier, the pilot or the passengers.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:37:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Him:
Not sure who is luckier, the pilot or the passengers.


The baby was the luckiest, not being strapped in. I believe the guy making the video was also holding the baby.

Here is some more info on ASN
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:31:55 PM EDT
The thing about landing on roads is is that there are often wires and power lines cutting across the road. Not to mention traffic and others on the road. Hitting a wire at 30 ft doing 100 mph is going to be far more disastrous than landing on a muddy or snowy field and bending a plane. I would have opted for the field too
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 6:26:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mazawakhan:
The thing about landing on roads is is that there are often wires and power lines cutting across the road. Not to mention traffic and others on the road. Hitting a wire at 30 ft doing 100 mph is going to be far more disastrous than landing on a muddy or snowy field and bending a plane. I would have opted for the field too


The thing is, the impact and end-over flip they did is not without risk to the occupants. What if there'd been a post-crash fire or the battery mount had come apart, letting the thirty pound battery fly through the cabin. The people in this video were quite lucky, and should be thankful they had shoulder harnesses, otherwise it would have been a lot worse.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 6:54:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 9:03:12 PM EDT by clffrdjk]
Multiple dead end roads plenty long at 1:20 (granted the camera does stop recording so that could be an hour before the crash)
No flap landing

Luck mixed with a little bit of skill saved their lives.
A different decision or two and possibly quicker thinking might have saved the pilot's livelihood and given everyone a much smoother ride.

Or
It was miss diagnosed as carb ice at the start and turned into a larger engine issue that forced him down. If that is the case he may have been trying to stretch it and that is why he did not deploy flaps. Can't really tell from the film due to the breaks in it.

Either way I would buy the guy a beer or ten if I had the chance to sit down with him and hear his story.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 7:08:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By Him:
Not sure who is luckier, the pilot or the passengers.


The baby was the luckiest, not being strapped in. I believe the guy making the video was also holding the baby.

Here is some more info on ASN


5 people in a 4 passenger airplane, and we're questioning the pilots decision making?

Shocking.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:00:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Frank_The_Tank:
Originally Posted By Skrutinizr:
Typically there are not a lot of lines crossing over rural roads- the straight stretch where there aren't any houses is unlikely to have a wire problem and he had enough altitude to recon a stretch. Was he even using flaps? I gotta go back and look again, but I don't recall the flaps being deployed.


Well seeing the picture of the plane from the link above the flaps weren't deployed.


After the crash the camera was pointed at the Johnson bar and it was down so I am thinking no flaps. Johnson bars were used on Cessnas until, I think, 1960. Those old Cessnas had 40 deg flaps, he could have landed at a much lower speed, if indeed he had not deployed the flaps, maybe avoiding the flip. Just speculation, glad they all survived.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 4:25:02 AM EDT
This happened about an hours drive north of me. I have driven that road, many many times. While it is the main highway through the valley, busy is a relative term. For the area, it is busy, compared to a city street, not so much. It is two lanes each direction with a turn lane in the middle. It is also long, straight and wide open, so if he had chosen to land on the road, people should have seen him coming, not like he was going to just pop out in front of them from behind a hill, building or trees. Granted some people drive with the head in their ass, but still. The screen shot from above is about 10 - 12 miles from the airport, but like another poster pointed out, lots of small roads and plenty of wide open space to divert to next to the road had there been obstructions he spotted on short final. Glad everyone was OK.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 1:09:37 PM EDT
Ya I am thinking he could have flared that out a little better
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 3:02:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Senoj:
Originally Posted By Mazawakhan:
The thing about landing on roads is is that there are often wires and power lines cutting across the road. Not to mention traffic and others on the road. Hitting a wire at 30 ft doing 100 mph is going to be far more disastrous than landing on a muddy or snowy field and bending a plane. I would have opted for the field too


The thing is, the impact and end-over flip they did is not without risk to the occupants. What if there'd been a post-crash fire or the battery mount had come apart, letting the thirty pound battery fly through the cabin. The people in this video were quite lucky, and should be thankful they had shoulder harnesses, otherwise it would have been a lot worse.


What if he was on short final with no power and discovered that there was indeed a wire going across his path. It would have been a lot worse. There are millions of what ifs! Ill will take a controlled crash any day of the week over an uncontrolled one!

Link Posted: 2/15/2013 8:19:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2013 4:43:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mazawakhan:
Originally Posted By Senoj:
Originally Posted By Mazawakhan:
The thing about landing on roads is is that there are often wires and power lines cutting across the road. Not to mention traffic and others on the road. Hitting a wire at 30 ft doing 100 mph is going to be far more disastrous than landing on a muddy or snowy field and bending a plane. I would have opted for the field too


The thing is, the impact and end-over flip they did is not without risk to the occupants. What if there'd been a post-crash fire or the battery mount had come apart, letting the thirty pound battery fly through the cabin. The people in this video were quite lucky, and should be thankful they had shoulder harnesses, otherwise it would have been a lot worse.


What if he was on short final with no power and discovered that there was indeed a wire going across his path. It would have been a lot worse. There are millions of what ifs! Ill will take a controlled crash any day of the week over an uncontrolled one!



You can see power lines while still high enough to alter your plan. You can never see what lies beneath the snow, or how deep it is.

Also, another thought. I believe that one of the articles said that local residents arrived at the scene by snow mobile. I have no idea how far out in that field they were, but that's also something to consider when selecting a place to land/crash. The more easily accessible you are once you're down, the greater your chance of survival.
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