Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
PSA
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 4/24/2013 9:26:12 PM EDT
Helping the GF get ready for a pro death penalty debate.  She knows the anti side is going to bring up innocents executed but we can't find a single bit of evidence from a non-biased source.  Even the anti-death penalty sites mostly just say they "think" so and so may have been innocent.    

Looking for something from the DOJ or a scholarly study.  All Google is coming up with is huffington post type garbage.  Thanks for any help guys!
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:44:20 PM EDT
There have been a a good number of close calls that were discovered in the last ten years or so with DNA testing.

Wiki lists only 3 likely cases in the US but I have read about more.

I sure it has happened. Most likely less common these days with technology improvements and the fact you spend 50 years on death row and have a bunch of appiels before the put you down..

Unless your in Texas.. In Texas the defendants chair in the court room is wired for 440v
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:45:20 PM EDT
seriously doubt the .gov is going to say they have executed an innocent man
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:46:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 9:48:45 PM EDT by leatherface_y2k]
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:50:28 PM EDT
I'm sure there were PLENTY in the 19th and early 20th century, especially black men.


Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:50:44 PM EDT
Johnny Garrett.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:51:52 PM EDT
Salem witches?
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:53:17 PM EDT
None proven.

The new use of DNA to claim innocence should be viewed in the context of evidence collection for the time period of the crime.

Evidence was not sought, collected, or stored with DNA in mind as the science did not exist.  To now claim that the presence or absence of the suspects DNA is somehow exonerating is generally a bit of a stretch.  It has sex appeal to the uninformed CSI watching public, but the groups pushing it care less about guilt or innocence than about being anti-death penalty.

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:58:52 PM EDT
Was there any official reversal on Richard Hauptmanns case?
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 9:58:57 PM EDT
Look at how many men were exonerated due to DNA and uncovered evidence.  Most of the time these guys were fighting for it them selves through as many channels as they could.

It stands to reason that guys before DNA and some of the crazy CSI stuff that's in use now, couldn't have proven innocence like the exonerated of the last few years.  No one is going to go back and look into the thousands of cases that were tried, won, and the execution completed.  No one wants that kind of blood on their hands, they will let sleeping dogs lie.   It's not like the dead will be trying. Cause...there dead.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:00:55 PM EDT
at least 40 documented cases by the police shooting people in their homes.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:04:23 PM EDT
i think the haymarket riot "anarchists" were railroaded. the early chicago machine
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:05:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
None proven.

The new use of DNA to claim innocence should be viewed in the context of evidence collection for the time period of the crime.

Evidence was not sought, collected, or stored with DNA in mind as the science did not exist.  To now claim that the presence or absence of the suspects DNA is somehow exonerating is generally a bit of a stretch.  It has sex appeal to the uninformed CSI watching public, but the groups pushing it care less about guilt or innocence than about being anti-death penalty.



The Willingham case is as close to proven as can be. No DNA involved. He was convicted of burning down his house with his two small children inside. Wife testified against him. They were estranged at the time. She later recanted. The state's expert witness was an elderly fire marshal who basically testified, "well, the house burned, hell yeah he set it on fire.."

Forensics has progressed since then and that old fire marshal has been discredited. Every fire scene expert now agrees from the extensive photographic evidence that there were no accelerants, that more than likely a malfunctioning electrical heater caused the fire.

But Willingham was a well known petty asshole with a record of minor offenses. Every one in the town, le included, was tired of him. And he was certainly an idiot, but by ALL accounts loved his two children dearly.

Took the needle nevertheless. I believe he was an innocent man who was executed.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:06:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
None proven.

The new use of DNA to claim innocence should be viewed in the context of evidence collection for the time period of the crime.

Evidence was not sought, collected, or stored with DNA in mind as the science did not exist.  To now claim that the presence or absence of the suspects DNA is somehow exonerating is generally a bit of a stretch.  It has sex appeal to the uninformed CSI watching public, but the groups pushing it care less about guilt or innocence than about being anti-death penalty.



I dont think its an absence that gets them off as much as it is that their DNA doesn't match what is known to be the killers DNA.

People have gotten off because of DNA, and I hardly think that they would freebies a case to talk about evidence that doesn't exist.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:07:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 10:07:58 PM EDT by sledhead907]
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


That's the same shit that's ALWAYS parroted.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:09:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FedDC:
None proven.

The new use of DNA to claim innocence should be viewed in the context of evidence collection for the time period of the crime.

Evidence was not sought, collected, or stored with DNA in mind as the science did not exist.  To now claim that the presence or absence of the suspects DNA is somehow exonerating is generally a bit of a stretch.  It has sex appeal to the uninformed CSI watching public, but the groups pushing it care less about guilt or innocence than about being anti-death penalty.



In the rape / murder cases that landed a good number of people on death row the DNA evidence is usually pretty compelling and lucky for those guys samples were taken and kept.

I have noticed that the PRO-death penalty people are just as concerned and active in helping some of these people with claims of innocence.. Of course they are not the ones they make TV shows about. I think that people that support the death penalty, including myself, want to be sure just as much as everyone else if not more sure before someone is put down. It matters to me that things are done correctly and by the law if we are going to take someone's life.

Look how much ARFCOM throws a shit fit when someone gets "detained" for 20 minutes.. Sitting in a cell for 35 years waiting for the day the state ends you life for something you didn't do is not something to take lightly.. Actually killing that person is a whole nother thing.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:09:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.



Spence was already serving a 90 year sentence for aggravated sexual assault on an 18 year old male according to the internet story I read so Fuck him. Willingham neighbors testimony sure made him seem guilty. thanks for the heads up on these I had never read about either story.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:12:06 PM EDT
Based on the number of convicts who have later been proven innocent, I find it mighty hard to believe that no innocent man was ever executed in this country.


And the scary part is that so many truly believe in the "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet" theory of justice.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:17:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sledhead907:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


That's the same shit that's ALWAYS parroted.


What do you mean? I played pinball and Missle Command with guy. Back then in Waco there wasn't anyplace to hang out really besides convenience stores that had pinball and video games. He wasn't a friend, he was several years older than us, but didn't ever seem like a fucking killer.

Look up his case. The "Lake Waco Triple Murders".

Scumbag of a D.A. named Vic Feazell. Suppressed evidence, outright lied during the trial.

And years later, while Spence was still alive and on death row a certain known murderer named Ottis Toole confessed on his deathbed in a Florida prison to him and Henry Lee Lucas having committed the murders. With details only the killer could have known.

Spence was executed anyway.

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:20:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


Also some info on exonerations here http://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/about.aspx
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:20:43 PM EDT
None confirmed. There's always cases of it possibly happening, but not in recent years
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:21:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dana1972:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.



Spence was already serving a 90 year sentence for aggravated sexual assault on an 18 year old male according to the internet story I read so Fuck him. Willingham neighbors testimony sure made him seem guilty. thanks for the heads up on these I had never read about either story.


The sentence for sexual assault was a part of the entire triple murder case. The victims were a male and two females, all teenagers.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:23:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2013 10:23:55 PM EDT by NUCdt04]
if anyone had the info it'd be these guys:


http://www.innocenceproject.org/


Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:25:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sharpshooter:
at least 40 documented cases by the police shooting people in their homes.


This
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:26:01 PM EDT
There is a kid here in VA that almost got executed despite exculpatory evidence.


Beyond a reasonable doubt, OP.






I only favor the death penalty for extremely heinous crimes and incidents where one is caught "red handed".
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:31:47 PM EDT
While I agree with the death penalty, it actually happens to be more expensive than letting them rot in jail.  The added expense comes from years of appeals and all the legal costs associated with finally getting to the point of the execution.  My SO did a paper on it back in college on both sides of the argument.  I always figured it's cheaper to just kill the scum but turns out that it ends up costing the state more money when all is said and done.  Might be worth looking into just for the sake of in-depth research.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:33:40 PM EDT
Ottis Toole also claimed to have taken John Walsh's kid as well. Not sure Mr Toole is completely credible in his claims.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:34:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
Ottis Toole also claimed to have taken John Walsh's kid as well. Not sure Mr Toole is completely credible in his claims.


Either Toole did it... or.. you know the rumors...
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:37:11 PM EDT
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent


I have a hard time believing that all of these guys were guilty.



If there is reason for an appeal for the case then you shouldn't be executing them.

Prison time should be harder and shorter.
Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:49:20 PM EDT
Trayvon Martin

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 10:52:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Onefast93z28:
Helping the GF get ready for a pro death penalty debate.


I got you covered, bro.

Link Posted: 4/24/2013 11:04:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By steve2071:
Trayvon Martin

http://www.nutwoodrocks.com/sneakyface.jpg


Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:11:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By FedDC:
None proven.

The new use of DNA to claim innocence should be viewed in the context of evidence collection for the time period of the crime.

Evidence was not sought, collected, or stored with DNA in mind as the science did not exist.  To now claim that the presence or absence of the suspects DNA is somehow exonerating is generally a bit of a stretch.  It has sex appeal to the uninformed CSI watching public, but the groups pushing it care less about guilt or innocence than about being anti-death penalty.



The Willingham case is as close to proven as can be. No DNA involved. He was convicted of burning down his house with his two small children inside. Wife testified against him. They were estranged at the time. She later recanted. The state's expert witness was an elderly fire marshal who basically testified, "well, the house burned, hell yeah he set it on fire.."

Forensics has progressed since then and that old fire marshal has been discredited. Every fire scene expert now agrees from the extensive photographic evidence that there were no accelerants, that more than likely a malfunctioning electrical heater caused the fire.

But Willingham was a well known petty asshole with a record of minor offenses. Every one in the town, le included, was tired of him. And he was certainly an idiot, but by ALL accounts loved his two children dearly.

Took the needle nevertheless. I believe he was an innocent man who was executed.


I know a confessed murderer and I found out in a roundabout way. When My aunt heard through someone she worked with that someone I used to hunt with killed someone he was literally the last guy I thought could have done it. He is a nice jovial guy, the last type of person you would expect but he still did it.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:15:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CaptainPatSmith:
While I agree with the death penalty, it actually happens to be more expensive than letting them rot in jail.  The added expense comes from years of appeals and all the legal costs associated with finally getting to the point of the execution.  My SO did a paper on it back in college on both sides of the argument.  I always figured it's cheaper to just kill the scum but turns out that it ends up costing the state more money when all is said and done.  Might be worth looking into just for the sake of in-depth research.


The added certainty created by the appeals is one of the reasons I'm pro death penalty. Why should a person not sentenced to death spend the rest of his life in prison without the govt. making damn sure he is actually guilty?
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:35:50 AM EDT
Vicki and Sammy Weaver
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:54:19 AM EDT
Joyce Gilchrist



She falsified evidence leading to 23 being sentenced to death, 11 of whom were executed.

Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:56:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By sledhead907:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


That's the same shit that's ALWAYS parroted.


What do you mean? I played pinball and Missle Command with guy. Back then in Waco there wasn't anyplace to hang out really besides convenience stores that had pinball and video games. He wasn't a friend, he was several years older than us, but didn't ever seem like a fucking killer.

Look up his case. The "Lake Waco Triple Murders".

Scumbag of a D.A. named Vic Feazell. Suppressed evidence, outright lied during the trial.

And years later, while Spence was still alive and on death row a certain known murderer named Ottis Toole confessed on his deathbed in a Florida prison to him and Henry Lee Lucas having committed the murders. With details only the killer could have known.

Spence was executed anyway.



Toole and Lucas were grade-A bullshitters who were great at providing confessions to crimes they had nothing to do with, just to gain attention.  They confessed to (and recanted) hundreds of murders they had nothing to do with.  Investigators' interviews of these clowns were handled poorly and often they parroted back things they were told by the police themselves, or they read in papers.  There are people close to many of those investigations who don't put ANY stock in what those two had to say.

I've met two FBI investigators who interviewed those two and neither was terribly convinced of most of what either had to say.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 1:03:09 AM EDT



Originally Posted By w15ly:


Salem witches?






 
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 1:13:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red96TransAm:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By sledhead907:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


That's the same shit that's ALWAYS parroted.


What do you mean? I played pinball and Missle Command with guy. Back then in Waco there wasn't anyplace to hang out really besides convenience stores that had pinball and video games. He wasn't a friend, he was several years older than us, but didn't ever seem like a fucking killer.

Look up his case. The "Lake Waco Triple Murders".

Scumbag of a D.A. named Vic Feazell. Suppressed evidence, outright lied during the trial.

And years later, while Spence was still alive and on death row a certain known murderer named Ottis Toole confessed on his deathbed in a Florida prison to him and Henry Lee Lucas having committed the murders. With details only the killer could have known.

Spence was executed anyway.



Toole and Lucas were grade-A bullshitters who were great at providing confessions to crimes they had nothing to do with, just to gain attention.  They confessed to (and recanted) hundreds of murders they had nothing to do with.  Investigators' interviews of these clowns were handled poorly and often they parroted back things they were told by the police themselves, or they read in papers.  There are people close to many of those investigations who don't put ANY stock in what those two had to say.

I've met two FBI investigators who interviewed those two and neither was terribly convinced of most of what either had to say.


Agreed they both were, Lucas moreso, as Toole was probably clinically retarded.

But I was born an raised in Waco and I can say this truthfully... In the mid-70's until Lucas was caught, in about 83 or so, whenever it was, there were many many many  disappearances  of mostly young women right along I-35. Everyone knew it was a dangerous place to be. And all of that pretty much stopped once he was caught. No doubt most of his confessions were bullshit, fed to him by investigators eager to close cases. But someone was sure as shit killing young women along I-35 in those days and it pretty much stopped after his arrest.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 1:17:02 AM EDT
Abdulrahman Anwar al-Awlaki
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:12:38 AM EDT




I was pro death pealty until her case. The over reaching by the state and the lack of a solid murder case turned the tide for me. If they could do it in a case of that notoriety they could do it in any murder case that gets a small amount of media attention.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 3:08:54 AM EDT
Tom Horn
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:42:29 PM EDT
at least some of these guys were probably innocent:


http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/hanging.html
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:44:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 12:50:14 PM EDT



Originally Posted By 1Andy2:


Based on the number of convicts who have later been proven innocent, I find it mighty hard to believe that no innocent man was ever executed in this country.





And the scary part is that so many truly believe in the "gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet" theory of justice.


What do you expect after 75 years of communist indoctrination in our public schools and news media?



 
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:07:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By sledhead907:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I'm pro-death penalty.

But look up Cameron Todd Willingham and David Wayne Spence.

I'm convinced both were not guilty of the crimes that they were executed for.

Both were certainly scumbags, but probably didn't do the deeds that got them snuffed.

eta... I actually knew Spence slightly. He used to hang out at the same convenience store we did. He'd buy us beer if we gave him the cash. Seemed like a normal enough guy. Not a triple-murderer.


That's the same shit that's ALWAYS parroted.


What do you mean?.



I mean, it's the same line that the friends and relatives parrot to the media after their son/daughter commit a crime. "Couldn’t have been them, they're good kids!" Sound familiar?
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:25:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stpeteaustin:
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.161313.1314013487!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/alg-casey-anthony-after-verdict-jpg.jpg



I was pro death pealty until her case. The over reaching by the state and the lack of a solid murder case turned the tide for me. If they could do it in a case of that notoriety they could do it in any murder case that gets a small amount of media attention.


I'm still pro-death penalty, if anything that case is the reason there should be no cameras in courtroom, the media had her convicted in the court of public opinion which is a dangerous thing,

As for the whole O'toole thing somebody mention earlier investigators used him as a clearing house for cold cases as far as I read, an out of state detective would interview him "did you kill x person at x place at x time?" he would say yes and they would say case closed.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:29:09 PM EDT
Given how flawed our justice system is, there's no way it hasn't happened.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:34:53 PM EDT
No solid proof but George Stinney's case reaks of injustice.
Link Posted: 4/25/2013 2:36:09 PM EDT



Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:



Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:

Ottis Toole also claimed to have taken John Walsh's kid as well. Not sure Mr Toole is completely credible in his claims.




Either Toole did it... or.. you know the rumors...


I don't, what are the rumors?

 
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top