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Posted: 8/6/2008 5:43:23 PM EST
I've been a gigging musician on and off for over 30 years, but a year and a half ago, I bought my 1st PA ever - at 1st, it was for rehearsal only, but it has grown since then to a somewhat modular system that will serve it's original purpose, on up to 500+ people gigs - or more, depending on the requirements...

I play in my own band, and a side project besides - but even between the 2 of them, I don't gig every weekend - so, I started running sound for other bands when I was off... Turns out, I'm not bad at all at it - in fact, I often get alot of compliments, few if any complaints - and a fair amount of offers for repeat business...

Although I prefer to play over running sound, I enjoy the sound gigs also - and go out of my way to accomodate the bands in the manner I'd want to be accomodated - I have a good monitor system, and can give 4 monitor mixes, if desired - and I have no difficulty getting a good FOH mix... The last show I did had 3 bands - I did a quick level check for the 1st band, and mixed on the fly - and by all accounts, had a good sounding mix well before the 1st song was over... For the next 2 bands, I left the channel faders where they were, dropped the mains a bit, and had them start their sets - I went down the channels setting each input level, then brought the main faders back up a bit, adjusted the channel faders for a good mix, and had everything running smoothly about 30 seconds into each band's 1st song... I had to tweak the monitor mixes a tiny bit after requests, then it was smooth sailing the rest of the night - I remember thinking to myself, I can't understand how *some* sound guys take forever to dial in a mix - it really isn't all that difficult...


Anyways, anyone else gigging and running sound on the side???



 - georgestrings
VP
Link Posted: 8/7/2008 7:48:33 PM EST
[#1]
WooHoo!
First post.
 
 Been lurking a long time.. I did sound for a regional provider for 3 years..

That's a great attitude to have , putting yourself in the reversed position. Trust me, the whole deal gets tougher as one scales the ladder from local, to regional and on to national level..

Link Posted: 8/8/2008 9:13:27 PM EST
[#2]
Our drummer was our sound man.

Lesson - Don't let a drummer run sound.

Link Posted: 8/18/2008 1:52:39 PM EST
[#3]
I've always ended up doing it, even though I didn't want too.  I suppose it's my fault I got the education to do it...

Lately I've been playing home studio engineer, though.  I like that much better...
Link Posted: 8/18/2008 2:04:46 PM EST
[#4]

Originally Posted By JarHead94:
Our drummer was our sound man.

Lesson - Don't let a drummer run sound.



Not always bad.

I was the drummer in my old band and, while I never ran sound, I engineered and mixed four recordings we did which did not turn out too shabby for using just a few mics and a simple interface into my notebook.
Link Posted: 8/18/2008 7:17:06 PM EST
[#5]
Link Posted: 8/20/2008 5:56:30 PM EST
[#6]

My basic rig is consists of:

Yorkville U15 tops (2x)
Yorkville LS808 Sub (2x)
EV Eliminator 15 x 2  Wedges (4x)

QSC 3402 for the tops
QSC 3402 for the subs
QSC 2450 (2x) for the monitors

DBX Driverack for X-over duties
Yamaha 01v

If I want to add two more monitor mixes..
 Add QSC 2402
 Yamaha Club 15x2 wedges
Yamaha 02r


all racked and ready to go

Link Posted: 8/22/2008 8:51:41 PM EST
[#7]
Link Posted: 8/22/2008 9:26:11 PM EST
[#8]

tell me about the DBX Driverack. Looks great on paper, does it work?



Yes and no

Specifically I have the DRPA...

I should have went for the dedicated Yorkie X over for my system. The EQ correction is fixed, but one cannot delay the tops against the subs.  Cost wise I would have needed to add a very good delay, dedicated to do that one operation.

The DRPA  has sufficient delay adjustments to work. Essentially I had to copy the Yorkie curve into the DRPA. Not a problem, just lots fiddling around. The pay off was the flexibilty to get the delay right and adjustable on the fly.

All that said, DBX being in the JBL family, there are tons of JBL preset combinations, that would make a JBL owner very happy. Just scroll thru and select.

Tops vs Sub delay IS subjective and enviornment sensitive.  A few MS here can make a HUGE difference
Link Posted: 8/22/2008 11:11:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: georgestrings] [#9]
My system is:

Peavey SP118s for subs
two Ross 15+horn tops(EV loaded), and two EV Eliminator 15+horn tops
two QSC USA850s in bridged mono for subs
Crown XLS 602 for tops
Crown XLS 402 for monitors
one Yamaha SM15V wedge, 2 15+horn wedges(Eminence Kappa Pro loaded)
18+ two 10s for a drum box
Soundcraft fx-16 mixer
Mackie 808s powered mixer
Behringer 6 channel mixer
ProCo Stagemaster 16/4 100' stage snake
DBX 223XL X-over
three DBX 215 EQs
DBX 266 Compressor

If I need more than 2 monitor mixes, I use the appropriate Direct Outs from the Soundcraft to feed the Behringer, and use it's Aux 1 and 2 for my 3rd and 4th monitor mixes, and drive them with the amp sections of the Mackie... For my band, our drummer uses IEMs, so I give him his own mix, give our singer his, and the guitarist and I share one - that way, I can get by just fine w/out dragging the Mackie along...


I also have a pair of JBL 218s available to me if I need them...



 - georgestrings
Link Posted: 8/31/2008 11:16:06 AM EST
[#10]
Link Posted: 8/31/2008 5:21:43 PM EST
[#11]

Originally Posted By FrankSquid:
OK sound guys, I need some advice!

We blew another set of diaphragms last night. My fault for the following reasons.

1) clipping the power amps
2) mismatched impedance
3) JBL JRX speakers suck ass.


I want to pull the passive x-overs and replace the HF drivers with decent aftermarket drivers and bi-amp the 1-15 cabs (I already installed 500w 8ohm Eminence Kappa Pros).

Here's the dilemma. I have 3 power amps.

1) 400w+400w @ 4 ohms/ 800w @ 8ohms bridged
2) 200w+200w @ 4 ohms/ 400w @ 8ohms bridged
3) 200w+200w @ 4 ohms/ 400w @ 8ohms bridged (a bi-amp bass head/pre amp out and amp inputs)

I would like to run a 200w+200w @ 4 ohms amp for the horns but the horns are mostly 8 ohms. Think that I'll be ok? I could install and wire an 8ohm bullet tweeter in parallel with the horn and have an 4ohm load.

If  I use amp # 1 to power one 15 then I guess that I will need to buy another 800w amp for the other 15.

I'll need-  
crossover
800w @ 8ohms amp
(2) 1 3/8 thread aftermarket HF drivers. (an suggestions?!)

Any and all input is appreciated!



OK, after looking over the gear you've described so far, it's likely that you're trying to get too much out of those 15 + horn tops - usually, a front end that light is only used for vocals, and *maybe* some guitar...

When you say "mismatched impedence, I'm guessing your tops were/are 8 ohms, and the amp you pushed them with is rated 400/ch @ 4 ohms - *if* that's the case, you didn't "mismatch" anything - you can push 8 ohm speakers with an amp who's known rating is at 4 ohms - you'll only be putting out around 275 watts @ 8 ohms with the same amp... That, in and of itself wouldn't damage a speaker, as long as you didn't drive it into clipping - when you make an amp clip, it actually puts out well over it's maximum rating - anywhere's up to and above 4x it's max rating, while clipping, actually - now THAT'S what more than likely blew the horns... What you need to do is make sure you don't drive the amp into clipping - and if while doing so, you're still not loud enough - then you need more speaker, and *maybe* more amp... BTW, in my experience, clipping *usually* trashes the horns first...

Next - in order to "bi-amp" the horns like you're talking about, you'd need to use an active crossover, besides both amps - and *most* horns won't handle 200 watts, anyways...


Anyways, that puts a dent in your situation... My advice is to replace the horn's diaphragms(if that's what's blown), and keep the amp out of clipping - then if you're still not loud enough, add another pair of tops... Then, if you're still not loud enough, add another amp to power the new set of tops...

Hope this helps,


 - georgestrings
Link Posted: 8/31/2008 5:32:30 PM EST
[#12]
I have been known to rock out on a Washburn from time to time.  I just have a 2X12 amp.  It creates all the noise my wife will put up with.  Keep on rockin' in the free world..............
Link Posted: 9/3/2008 5:54:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: FrankSquid] [#13]
Link Posted: 9/6/2008 4:31:48 PM EST
[#14]

Originally Posted By FrankSquid:
Thanks George. The PA is being use for hardcore punk bands. I do the shows for my sons bands and his friends. I charge them a small fee and put about 4x what they pay me back into the PA but I consider it community service...have you ever been to a hardcore show?! It's a lot of fun, especially if you get out with only a few cuts and bruises.

I run vocals only but hardcore vocals aren't really vocals, it's screaming into the mike. I'm thinking because I didn't run my compressor/limiter that the spikes in vocals clipped the amp and blew the horns. You're right on about the 8ohm output of my amp, I looked it up and its 240w per side. That's way under powered for bands that use two 100w guitar rigs and 400w+ bass rigs.

I looked at the passive x-overs and the capacitors are literally blown out/bulging. I ordered a Rane SAC22 crossover. Its a dedicated stereo biamp unit with sub out. I almost bought a Behringer CX2310 (stereo 2 way/mono 3 way active crossover with variable sub output)for less then$100 but like I tell everybody... buy right once...cry once. We definitely want to add a sub in the near future since a little kick drum is the only thing other then vocals that needs to go into the mix.  
I'm not going to replace the JBL diaphragms. I'll give the Selenium D210Ti drivers a shot. I've read that they are a good upgrade for the JBLs. They sound better, last longer and were cheap! $31 for a complete driver from partsexpress.com.
I'm have the word out that I am looking for another power amp. If nothing shows up then I'll grab something off of craigs list or order one next week. The next show is Sept 20th.



Hi, Frank - sorry for not getting back sooner...

Honestly, I think that repairing/upgrading the existing passive crossovers on your tops, then making sure you have enough speakers and amps tp produce adequate volume is a better answer than using an active X-over for tops only... I use an active X-over between tops and subs - and to my knowledge, that's the most common use of them...


"I'm thinking because I didn't run my compressor/limiter that the spikes in vocals clipped the amp and blew the horns."


Now you're on to something - I have a DBX 266 compressor/limiter/gate that I insert for "screamers", to save my drivers... If they're really screaming, I'll bump the ratio up to 4:1, and set the attack and release fairly fast... Sometimes, I'll use it as a gate for drums that are "ringy"... Another decent, but cheap compressor is the Alesis 3630 - they can be bought used for around $60, usually...


I like Selenium horns - I think you're making a good choice there...


My band is mostly a modern rock/metal band - with a bit of classic rock thrown in... Our stage volume is fairly reasonable, and our singer isn't really a screamer - so, I've only blown one horn diaphragm in a year's time of gigs with this band - and that was *probably* due to old age... I never have to use compression for my own band, but will sometimes gate the toms, if needed.... But, some of the other bands I run sound for would blow some drivers, if I didn't insert a compressor in the vocal channels - so, I keep it inserted, but set to 2:1, 'til I see them screaming hard enough to require more compression - then I'll bump it up to 3:1, or 4:1, as needed...

BTW, 2:1 isn't much compression - 1:1 doesn't do anything at all - and, by already being inserted in the lead vocals, I can dial it up in a second if needed...


Hope this helps,



 - georgestrings
Link Posted: 9/6/2008 11:53:52 PM EST
[#15]
Link Posted: 9/22/2008 8:39:38 PM EST
[#16]
Link Posted: 9/24/2008 9:35:56 AM EST
[#17]
Sounds like you've got the situation under control, Frank - I'm glad things are working our for you, and it sounds like you've got your compressor set decently for that application... I'd watch the PFL for each singer, and if one really lays into it, bump it up to 4:1 for him, and 2:1 or 3:1 for everyone else...



 - georgestrings
Link Posted: 9/24/2008 10:04:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: gus] [#18]
I run sound for a local private club. It's a lot of fun, especially if you get to do some bigger names (I've done sound for Lee Rocker several times, original Beatles drummer Pete Best, Foghat, Pat Travers, Rick Derringer, Badfinger, and also some bigger regional acts such as Crack the Sky and others). I've also been hired to do shows at other clubs by bands that had played at our club and liked what they heard.

Back when I was playing I had a fairly large system which we dragged out whenever we had a gig at a venue that didn't have a house sound system, or didn't have a big enough system.  That's part of what ruined the fun of playing gigs for me - loading that big PA in and out at all hours, often having to get up and work the next day. I sold just about all of my sound gear years ago and now will only do sound if there's a system in place when I get there. Lugging all that crap around is a huge PITA if you do it very frequently.

ETA: The system at my club consists of McCauley speakers, two big racks of QSC power amps, a 32 channel main board (Soundcraft MH2), 24 channel (6 output channels) monitor mixer, tons of EQ's, gates, several compressors, a pair of 3 way crossovers, and various effects boxes.  I wouldn''t be involved if I had to move all that stuff around.
Link Posted: 9/27/2008 6:24:29 PM EST
[#19]
Link Posted: 8/5/2009 3:46:04 PM EST
[#20]
I´m a freelance sound engineer here in Finland. Its good to see so many others alike here on these boards!

I don´t have my own PA setup because of my gig frequency and storage problems but am fluent with analogue desks and few digital desks, mostly Yamaha LS-9, 01V and DM´s.
I have been working with sound for about 16 years now. Three years as a full time roadie and the rest as a "weekend roadie", both FOH and Monitor tasks included.

I have some cheep prosessing that i use on smaller gigs with no prosessing equipment. I use Samson comp/lim/gates and Lexicon 500 as my tools when not provided with enough equipment to do a gig. I prefer TC D2 as a tap delay and like the Lexicon basic reverb sound. FOH desk channels needs to be 4 EQ with at least semi para mids. If I get to choose, I don´t need Drawmers and PCM81´s to do the job, I can manage fine without expencisive hardware.

I have a  laptop with Tascam US144 USB interface to run a good and very low cost real time analyzer/signal generator named Realtime Analyzer RAL. Measurement microfone is Audix TR-40.
sn
This leads me to microfones, I like Audix sound very much. If I ever get rich enough, I get an Audix drum mic set for 2 x BD, 2 x SN, 5 x RT, 3 x FT. I have no experience with Audix condencers other than the TR-40 so I´m not sure about Audix´s as OH´s. Other mics would be Sennheiser and Shure. Audix OM5 is the best vocal microfone for my taste. It doesn´distort and is quite feedback free but  still has a good sensitivity to lower audio levels.

Wow, I could go on for awhile longer but I think that this is me in short

Miku
Link Posted: 8/6/2009 9:50:41 AM EST
[#21]
yes, but down here(s ga) the gigs have dried up playing & running sound. I used to earn a nice little chunk doing it but other folks got in and started undercutting to the point where it wasn't worth going out....I have a 15' trailer with a 3 over 3 rig sitting in it doing nothing right now. Had thought about going bigger altogether (small line array, lifts, big led par light rig) but economy and good sense dictates against it. Glad to see you are doing well where you are and there are not nearly enough good FOH guys out there.
Link Posted: 8/6/2009 7:54:21 PM EST
[#22]
Link Posted: 6/20/2011 10:33:29 PM EST
[#23]
Back in the 1980's/90's, I did pro audio and lighting for a few companies. I worked at the pro audio shop in Reno and did a bunch of name acts and some, not so name acts. I was the "go to" guy back then. I also tried to play guitar in my band on the side, until I got tired of being broke.



I had all the pro gear and could do any venue in Reno. The worst was Pantera in a smallish club on thier first leg of thier first national tour. We should have brought a few more amps and speaker cabs. We had enough, but thier stage volume was incredible. And they were asses.
Link Posted: 1/18/2018 11:09:52 PM EST
[#24]
Volume is not the important part of this.

Balance and clarity are the important things... All channels are not created equal.  The rhythm guitar should not be as loud as the lead, for example.  Just because a channel is not clipping does not mean it is right.

EQ... voices have a purpose... to sing lyrics.  The listener needs to understand the words being sung.  If the singer sounds muffled, not enough high EQ.  But the
voice should not be boomy either.  If the S's are sizzling, too much high.  If the P's are popping, too much low.  Get the voices sounding natural.

Use the same EQ for horns as you do for voices.

You do not need high volume in clubs / restaurants.  If you have to shout your order into the waitress' ear, the band is too damned loud.  If the patrons are unable to talk to each other without shouting in each other's ears, the band is too damned loud.

Balance and clarity.

I'm often complimented for how bands that I play with (and take over the board) sound.

And if someone does a mic drop with MY mic, he buys it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 12:04:55 AM EST
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jupiter7200:
Volume is not the important part of this.

Balance and clarity are the important things... All channels are not created equal.  The rhythm guitar should not be as loud as the lead, for example.  Just because a channel is not clipping does not mean it is right.

EQ... voices have a purpose... to sing lyrics.  The listener needs to understand the words being sung.  If the singer sounds muffled, not enough high EQ.  But the
voice should not be boomy either.  If the S's are sizzling, too much high.  If the P's are popping, too much low.  Get the voices sounding natural.

Use the same EQ for horns as you do for voices.

You do not need high volume in clubs / restaurants.  If you have to shout your order into the waitress' ear, the band is too damned loud.  If the patrons are unable to talk to each other without shouting in each other's ears, the band is too damned loud.

Balance and clarity.

I'm often complimented for how bands that I play with (and take over the board) sound.

And if someone does a mic drop with MY mic, he buys it.
View Quote
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 4:38:25 AM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jupiter7200:
Volume is not the important part of this.

Balance and clarity are the important things... All channels are not created equal.  The rhythm guitar should not be as loud as the lead, for example.  Just because a channel is not clipping does not mean it is right.

EQ... voices have a purpose... to sing lyrics.  The listener needs to understand the words being sung.  If the singer sounds muffled, not enough high EQ.  But the
voice should not be boomy either.  If the S's are sizzling, too much high.  If the P's are popping, too much low.  Get the voices sounding natural.

Use the same EQ for horns as you do for voices.

You do not need high volume in clubs / restaurants.  If you have to shout your order into the waitress' ear, the band is too damned loud.  If the patrons are unable to talk to each other without shouting in each other's ears, the band is too damned loud.

Balance and clarity.

I'm often complimented for how bands that I play with (and take over the board) sound.

And if someone does a mic drop with MY mic, he buys it.
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 5:29:13 AM EST
[#27]
I have seldom  had someone running sound that I personally thought was capable of even tuning an AM radio for best reception. I have played in a few rather large venues that was substandard.  Really good sound people are very hard to come by. I think half of the people running sound are tone deaf. Then we have the guys who throw on a pair of headphones and start banging on the board never once listening to the room.
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 6:06:54 AM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jupiter7200:
Volume is not the important part of this.

Balance and clarity are the important things... All channels are not created equal.  The rhythm guitar should not be as loud as the lead, for example.  Just because a channel is not clipping does not mean it is right.

EQ... voices have a purpose... to sing lyrics.  The listener needs to understand the words being sung.  If the singer sounds muffled, not enough high EQ.  But the
voice should not be boomy either.  If the S's are sizzling, too much high.  If the P's are popping, too much low.  Get the voices sounding natural.

Use the same EQ for horns as you do for voices.

You do not need high volume in clubs / restaurants.  If you have to shout your order into the waitress' ear, the band is too damned loud.  If the patrons are unable to talk to each other without shouting in each other's ears, the band is too damned loud.

Balance and clarity.

I'm often complimented for how bands that I play with (and take over the board) sound.

And if someone does a mic drop with MY mic, he buys it.
View Quote
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 6:37:49 AM EST
[#29]
Dump passive cabinets and pickup some powered QSC mains and subs get a Midas M32 for Foh and a x32 for in ears using phones
Link Posted: 1/19/2018 7:22:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: gus] [#30]
Holy Ancient Topic!!!!!!

Well in the time that's passed since this thread began, the system I run has changed just a bit.  

The room holds 180 people max.

The FOH consists of JBL VRX932LAP powered line arrays, 4 cabs per side, and KSI/McCauley 2x15" subs - one on each side of the stage.
FOH board is now an Allen & Heath GL3300, there is an Allen & Heath 32 channel monitor board, etc.
Getting the FOH mains up over everybody's heads helped a lot, and the fact that the speakers are 2014 vintage instead of 1984 vintage helps more than it seems like it would...

Recent bands:  Cactus, Carl Palmer, Pat Travers, Kix, Badfinger, The Ravyns, Peter Tork (yeah that Peter Tork), and numerous regional and local bands...
Link Posted: 1/20/2018 3:53:52 PM EST
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fairplay:
I have seldom  had someone running sound that I personally thought was capable of even tuning an AM radio for best reception. I have played in a few rather large venues that was substandard.  Really good sound people are very hard to come by. I think half of the people running sound are tone deaf. Then we have the guys who throw on a pair of headphones and start banging on the board never once listening to the room.
View Quote
This.. listen to what is happening in the room.. Annoys the Bajeebers outta me, the kids that come from sound guy skool, who learned that there are specific EQ,  compression, etc settings  that MUST be used.
Without hearing anything played by the band.  I did a ton of corporate gigs with the same bands,  using digi boards with stored band settings. One still needs to listen and tweak things as the gig goes on. Like the drummer who
runs out of gas, and the kick drum disappears. Ya need room to get it back in mix, so to speak.

Quite interesting, I made my first ever post on Barfcom in this thread..

Link Posted: 1/20/2018 10:38:20 PM EST
[#32]
I had gotten rid of all my gear about a year after this thread was started. I got tired of breaking all my stuff. Now I break other people's stuff

House monitor guy now for a 1000 cap venue. Lots of pics floating around out there but this one captures the general vibe. The past few years have been a trip.

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Link Posted: 8/10/2018 9:58:29 PM EST
[#33]
Everyone I ever played with says eventually "You're more like an engineer than a musician", which I take as a compliment. Sounding good to me is just as (if not more) important than playing good. A great performance can be easily ruined by bad mix or crappy PA. And, you can make some flub hack playing sound pretty impressive with the right gear. So, I take that part of it very serious, and it's probably why I've had trouble keeping bands together. Some guys just wanna play shit bar gigs with marginal or no PA and don't seem to care how they're heard. I'd rather not play at all than sound shitty.

So, I do a LOT of work on recording, amp & gear mixing and arranging, patch and sample development, PA and mixing rituals to get things uniform and streamlined, and audition my gear in the FOH.
Link Posted: 8/13/2018 10:02:11 AM EST
[#34]
Something that hasn't really been addressed here is managing changeovers by saving and recalling scenes.

Developing this and other work habits that lend themselves to quick, stress-free changeovers will increase your value as a sound guy.

It's one thing to go festival style and run bands first to last with no soundcheck, but it's another to check the headliner first, work in the opposite direction checking support/openers, and then work back to the headliner once the show begins. It presents a unique set of challenges.
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 10:21:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu] [#35]
LOL, digital boards. Young whippersnappers don't know how it used to be.

'Saved scenes' used to be a paper copy of the board layout with all the settings marked on each channel.   Being old...
Link Posted: 8/14/2018 10:35:56 PM EST
[#36]
I've run sound a few times.   Honestly I have a good ear and know how to make the sound coming out of the PA actually sound like the band that's playing.

Noob mistake:  Cranking up the bass and treble.

No, don't do that.   Let each musician set up his sound and try to get that same sound out of the PA with as little EQ tweaking as possible...unless the player is a total idiot who obviously can't hear worth a damn.

I can spot a bad sound guy a mile away.  He has the EQ set up in a smiley face.   BAD SOUND MAN!
Link Posted: 8/18/2018 6:53:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: gus] [#37]
Digital boards do offer a few advantages, such as memory, but let one fail to boot up before a show and see what happens.  :)  We had a band in our club a few months ago that insisted on using their brand new spendy Digico digital FOH board, so we pulled our "ancient" analog Allen & Heath and made room for it.  I knew there was a problem when their sound guy got this wide eye'd panic look on his face, I could see that he was having a very bad day.  Their shiny new board which worked the night before was pretty much dead. No boot up, no LED's, no signs of life at all, nothing.  Lucky for him we're pretty easy going and we put our old-man board back in place.  Luckily their guy was familiar with our board (one of the most prolific boards ever made) so after a few minutes giving him the grand tour of our FX setup he got the sound check done with no more problems.  In fact, the band members insisted it sounded better than usual, a compliment to their guy's ability to change on the fly.
Their digital board wasn't some bargain priced PreSonus piece from Guitar Center either.  I don't know what ever turned out to be the problem with it, I'd assume power supply failure.  We've had other bands' digital boards fart out mid show, making weird clicking and screeching noises while the band played. A re-boot seems to solve those kinds of issues.  Sucks when they happen during a show though...  I've never once seen an analog board do it, at most you get a scratchy pot or even a dead channel. I've never seen a show ending failure by a quality analog board.
Link Posted: 8/18/2018 7:09:49 AM EST
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MirrorMirror:
I've run sound a few times.   Honestly I have a good ear and know how to make the sound coming out of the PA actually sound like the band that's playing.

Noob mistake:  Cranking up the bass and treble.

No, don't do that.   Let each musician set up his sound and try to get that same sound out of the PA with as little EQ tweaking as possible...unless the player is a total idiot who obviously can't hear worth a damn.

I can spot a bad sound guy a mile away.  He has the EQ set up in a smiley face.   BAD SOUND MAN!
View Quote
I feel the same way about guys that insist on "calibrating" to a room using white noise and a spectrum analyzer. They wind up with a bunch of peaks and valleys on the main EQ, and it makes feedback issues come forth with a vengeance.  Our system is the permanent house system, and most bands just trust that I know how it sounds best in our room, which I do.  I don't even own a white noise generator (other than a smart phone ap) or an analyzer.  I use my ears and set it using very familiar music from a CD (or nowadays iPod).  Leave the channel EQ flat, and use the FOH EQ mostly to notch out a little around 110Hz since that seems to be an obvious resonant freq of the room. That's also about where I set the crossover so the crossover also notches it out a little, requiring less EQ. Pull down the bass below about 30Hz, apply a touch of speaker protecting compression, and it's ready to go. My EQ is pretty much flat other than that notch and one or two higher up that eliminate FOH feedback issues.  Now if a guitar player's tone sucks, there's little chance of a sound guy being able to fix it especially if the player thinks it sounds good.  Good input equals good output.  The best pro bands make it easy - you point mics at their stuff and blend them and it sounds absolutely killer.
Link Posted: 8/20/2018 9:47:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: thawntex] [#39]
Sound guys carry their own digital boards, and they shoot rooms with pink noise. It's just what they do. If a guy brings in a glitchy or inoperable console, or manipulates the house EQ to the detriment of the mix, it's a reflection on him. In my experience, a majority of guys carry solid digital consoles (knowing how to troubleshoot them if the need arises), and succeed in tuning house systems with Smaart and other measurement/instrumentation tools.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two acts over the past few years that loaded in analog boards. One was a band started in 1979, and the other an 85-year-old country legend. It has been a decade since I last took note of an analog house board at a local venue or club. Today, all the venues whose consoles I can name use digital.

None of this is to say that digital is superior to analog, or that using Smaart is superior to using one's ears. The only point I'm making is that digital boards and Smaart are things, and they are effectively used by virtually every sound dude under the age of 35, and in fact most sound dudes over said age.

If you're middle aged or older and haven't had a 22-year-old guy mix circles around you with the latest and greatest digital board, and demonstrate a level of competence with today's gear that far exceeds your own, you are either a bad ass, or you're living under a rock. I am not a bad ass, nor do I live under a rock, so I choose to be on board with modern sound gear.
Link Posted: 8/22/2018 6:15:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: gus] [#40]
Just two weeks ago I was at a local outdoor show, being run by a kid who was walking around using an iPad.  There was a massive peak in the mid bass that made all the bass in the mix sound like the same note, and the overall bass was so loud you couldn't hope to get the vocals on top without major feedback.   I didn't feel out done at all by him or his board.   I have nothing against digital boards, or young sound engineers, but a lot of them don't use their ears at all.  Plenty of them aren't musicians themselves or simply don't know what sounds good to most people.  I don't do it professionally (I'm an E.E. in real life) but as a musician, an audiophile, and occasionally a FOH engineer, I trust my ears over any scan.  I'd maybe use it to find any major glaring room issues or feedback potential, but the final sound would still be done via my ears.  I do have the advantage of running a stationary system so that makes it quite a bit easier for me than someone loading in to a new room every night.  In a touring situation, I'd probably use it to a degree.

JMHO, yours may vary of course.
Link Posted: 8/22/2018 6:34:26 PM EST
[#41]
the nice digital boards have preamps that match the sweet warm sound of a good analog board, but they are in the range of 20 to 75k.
the 4k Midas M32 has a very dry lifeless sound
Link Posted: 8/22/2018 7:08:23 PM EST
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By coldair:
the nice digital boards have preamps that match the sweet warm sound of a good analog board, but they are in the range of 20 to 75k.
the 4k Midas M32 has a very dry lifeless sound
View Quote
I was on a Midas PRO2 at my last job. The guys who came through always hailed it as a great sounding board.

I'm using an M32 now. It has been extremely reliable, and personally I have no complaints about the sound. That said, I miss the PRO2, for a number of different reasons. It is, as they say, pure sex.
Link Posted: 8/23/2018 4:58:58 PM EST
[#43]
Damn... a lot of passive systems listed here. Once I started buying powered class-D stuff I never looked back. My trashed spine can't haul those heavy power racks around anyways. Active PA is the only way to go for the regular joe.
Link Posted: 9/1/2018 11:37:54 PM EST
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gus:
Just two weeks ago I was at a local outdoor show, being run by a kid who was walking around using an iPad.  There was a massive peak in the mid bass that made all the bass in the mix sound like the same note, and the overall bass was so loud you couldn't hope to get the vocals on top without major feedback.   I didn't feel out done at all by him or his board.   I have nothing against digital boards, or young sound engineers, but a lot of them don't use their ears at all.  Plenty of them aren't musicians themselves or simply don't know what sounds good to most people.  I don't do it professionally (I'm an E.E. in real life) but as a musician, an audiophile, and occasionally a FOH engineer, I trust my ears over any scan.  I'd maybe use it to find any major glaring room issues or feedback potential, but the final sound would still be done via my ears.  I do have the advantage of running a stationary system so that makes it quite a bit easier for me than someone loading in to a new room every night.  In a touring situation, I'd probably use it to a degree.

JMHO, yours may vary of course.
View Quote
See, the room is the hidden instrument in the band. How does the mix sound in that hall, that night, with that audience, at that temp/humidity? FOH engineer's most important tool is the ears on his/her head, and the software that controls them.
Link Posted: 8/1/2019 3:02:39 PM EST
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gone_Shootin:
https://i.imgur.com/sELTFc7.jpg
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Originally Posted By Gone_Shootin:
Originally Posted By Jupiter7200:
Volume is not the important part of this.

Balance and clarity are the important things... All channels are not created equal.  The rhythm guitar should not be as loud as the lead, for example.  Just because a channel is not clipping does not mean it is right.

EQ... voices have a purpose... to sing lyrics.  The listener needs to understand the words being sung.  If the singer sounds muffled, not enough high EQ.  But the
voice should not be boomy either.  If the S's are sizzling, too much high.  If the P's are popping, too much low.  Get the voices sounding natural.

Use the same EQ for horns as you do for voices.

You do not need high volume in clubs / restaurants.  If you have to shout your order into the waitress' ear, the band is too damned loud.  If the patrons are unable to talk to each other without shouting in each other's ears, the band is too damned loud.

Balance and clarity.

I'm often complimented for how bands that I play with (and take over the board) sound.

And if someone does a mic drop with MY mic, he buys it.
https://i.imgur.com/sELTFc7.jpg
Jupiter is right.
Link Posted: 8/12/2019 5:09:16 PM EST
[#46]
I got a blues , boogie band going , we were using a buddy's Behringer system at first , I decided to get my own PA so as not to have to rely on anyone  . The sound tech thing is new to me , Im running a QSC Touchmix 16 , two QSC k12.2 mains , one QSC 181 sub I run the kick and bass thru ,  one QSC CP 8 paired with   two Alto 300 8" for monitors , The QSC has presets in the mix for all kinds of instruments and vocals along with settings for specific QSC speakers and cabs. I use the presets as a starting point and tweak a little , it has really made things easier for me being a novice . Ive been getting really good feedback on our sound . Im learning on the go , my next thing is to mic the two guitars and my harp amp to try and record us and mx it down with a DAW program . Which brings me to ask what DAW are you guys using ?
Link Posted: 8/12/2019 5:11:26 PM EST
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Red_Label:
Damn... a lot of passive systems listed here. Once I started buying powered class-D stuff I never looked back. My trashed spine can't haul those heavy power racks around anyways. Active PA is the only way to go for the regular joe.
View Quote
Gone are the days of filling a van front to back , with strategic loading  I can fit my rig including my harp amp in the back seat of my truck , with just the sub and stands back in the bed
Link Posted: 12/16/2021 6:14:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: HKD126] [#48]
I’m a touring sound guy by trade and a system engineer for a few fairly large/well known bands. My main gig is a pretty famous blues guitarist and we do mostly theaters. However I regularly do system design, install, and tuning for audiences of 20k-60k, including large mainstream festivals much large than that. I mostly deploy L’Acoustics systems as it’s what I specialize in and keeps me insanely busy. I also know d&b, JBL, Outline and Martin very well.

I’ve been a sound guy professionally my entire adult life and wouldn’t change it for the world. There’s very few “real” jobs I could tolerate, but if I needed to make a change and get off the road (also a very real concern due to the covidiocy mandates in my industry) I would look at going into IT and data center installation. It wouldn’t be a hard change due to how much IT/IP networking I already due to digital audio. I also find it pretty fun.

***EDIT***

Holy shit I didn’t see how old this thread was…. My bad. This forum definitely isn’t refreshed like GD is. First time visiting too. Going back to GD now…
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 10:14:06 AM EST
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HKD126:
I'm a touring sound guy by trade and a system engineer for a few fairly large/well known bands. My main gig is a pretty famous blues guitarist and we do mostly theaters. However I regularly do system design, install, and tuning for audiences of 20k-60k, including large mainstream festivals much large than that. I mostly deploy L'Acoustics systems as it's what I specialize in and keeps me insanely busy. I also know d&b, JBL, Outline and Martin very well.

I've been a sound guy professionally my entire adult life and wouldn't change it for the world. There's very few "real" jobs I could tolerate, but if I needed to make a change and get off the road (also a very real concern due to the covidiocy mandates in my industry) I would look at going into IT and data center installation. It wouldn't be a hard change due to how much IT/IP networking I already due to digital audio. I also find it pretty fun.

***EDIT***

Holy shit I didn't see how old this thread was. My bad. This forum definitely isn't refreshed like GD is. First time visiting too. Going back to GD now
View Quote
Aw, don't go away!

It's great that this thread gets revived every few years. It's like a long running study in the progression of live sound technology
Link Posted: 12/17/2021 10:44:48 AM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HKD126:
I’m a touring sound guy by trade and a system engineer for a few fairly large/well known bands. My main gig is a pretty famous blues guitarist and we do mostly theaters. However I regularly do system design, install, and tuning for audiences of 20k-60k, including large mainstream festivals much large than that. I mostly deploy L’Acoustics systems as it’s what I specialize in and keeps me insanely busy. I also know d&b, JBL, Outline and Martin very well.

I’ve been a sound guy professionally my entire adult life and wouldn’t change it for the world. There’s very few “real” jobs I could tolerate, but if I needed to make a change and get off the road (also a very real concern due to the covidiocy mandates in my industry) I would look at going into IT and data center installation. It wouldn’t be a hard change due to how much IT/IP networking I already due to digital audio. I also find it pretty fun.

***EDIT***

Holy shit I didn’t see how old this thread was…. My bad. This forum definitely isn’t refreshed like GD is. First time visiting too. Going back to GD now…
View Quote


Are you back to work full time now? I recall your business got hosed pretty good by the Covid BS lockdowns.
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