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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:46:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Would depend on the factors involved.
But I don't see myself getting into a shootout with Snoopdog & Posse to save the Whammy Burger payroll. However if they went from person to person they would find, and take my gun and probably start some shit. So as soon as that shit started I can see people getting shot. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:47:45 PM EDT
[#2]
I would probably be dead, I have been held up a few times and the natural instinct for me was to go for my pistol (the last time). But my situation was alot different than two pros with shotguns.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:48:50 PM EDT
[#3]
It's probably not that cut and dry. It matters if you have available cover or concealment and how well they are covering you. Whether you think they are likely to kill someone, or just trying to get some money. Remember, there are rules for deadly force use.
In a genrealization... I don't feel too good about some pukes holding up a place with guns and threatening folks. I would most likely draw down and hopefully get the cops out to pick 'em up. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:51:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Whatever you do, do it quick while they are trying to focus on everyone at once. Before they determine who the real threats might be.
That way, you just might either; "A" be able to escape (preferable) or, "B" get the drop on them (last resort). |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:54:48 PM EDT
[#5]
It's Christmas time. Armed robberies jump sky high before Christmas. I probably would have kept cool unless they tried to steal my burgers then all gloves are off.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:55:36 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm just guessing here but if someone started shooting at them I'm figuring they most likey would piss themselves and run out flailing their arms above their heads. Most bad guys are horrible shots and don't like to be shot at. The guy with the shotgun would be my first target of course.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:58:38 PM EDT
[#7]
I ask because I carry, and I could have been in there tonight.
These guys didn't shoot anyone, but you never know. Anyone putting me at the wrong end of a firearm is fair game, IMO. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 8:59:06 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: I'm just guessing here but if someone started shooting at them I'm figuring they most likey would piss themselves and run out flailing their arms above their heads. Most bad guys are horrible shots and don't like to be shot at. The guy with the shotgun would be my first target of course. theres alot of truth to that, they are looking for easy cash. But you never know you might get the hardcore guy. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:04:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I'm just guessing here but if someone started shooting at them I'm figuring they most likey would piss themselves and run out flailing their arms above their heads. [red]Most bad guys are horrible shots[/red] and don't like to be shot at. The guy with the shotgun would be my first target of course. are you willing to bet your life and everyone elses in the burger joint on that assumption? cause these may be the only 2 in the world that can hit what they aim at. if they were just going for the burger joints money, then they can have it. they start going person to person and they can have it also, bullets first of course. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:04:42 PM EDT
[#10]
If your going to pull that pistol, you better assume you're facing down a young Jeff Cooper. Shoot for your life and don't expect them to run away.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:31:00 PM EDT
[#11]
I think the best thing you could do is let them no good SOBs take the money and run, besides its not your money and if its not yours why put you self it a sit. that could get you or someone else killed. Look I understand that you want to do what most of us feel is the right thing to do, but you might end up causing more of a problem than solving one. If they start shooting people thats one thing but until then I think the best thing would be to
1. Get as much info on them as pos. a. see if the use each others names b. look for any tatoos or any other marks on them. c. height, weight, build, ect....... 2. car info. a. plate # B. Make and modle of car c. Any damage or markings Any info you think the police can use. Then let them do thier jobs THATS WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO. Somtimes the best action to take is none at all. That just my thoughts of course, but I'm sure you will hear from the internet RAMBOS on how the will killem all with a hollywooooood weapon that never runs out of ammo....lol |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:32:42 PM EDT
[#12]
If no cover, no chance I'd draw. If the counter were in front of me, I'd be over it before they could shoot. Then I'd draw and fire wildly while screaming like a girl. If the gun doesn't scare em, my insane behavior might.
Seriously though, I think I'd get cover, draw and let them run, because they would. Firing would only come if they persisted or I had an absolutely clear shot and an ability for a quick follow up shot at perp #2. While hitting perp 1, I'd still have to worry about perp 2 and maybe perp 3 behind me. |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:34:26 PM EDT
[#13]
I would have cried until the police showed up. Then, I would just go home and take a nice, long bath.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:35:38 PM EDT
[#14]
The article stated they did rob the patrons of their money, too.
If they found my CCW, then shit... |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 9:58:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Then I'd draw and fire wildly while screaming like a girl. If the gun doesn't scare em, my insane behavior might. [lol] |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 10:03:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: I think the best thing you could do is let them no good SOBs take the money and run, besides its not your money and if its not yours why put you self it a sit. that could get you or someone else killed. Look I understand that you want to do what most of us feel is the right thing to do, but you might end up causing more of a problem than solving one. If they start shooting people thats one thing but until then I think the best thing would be to 1. Get as much info on them as pos. a. see if the use each others names b. look for any tatoos or any other marks on them. c. height, weight, build, ect....... 2. car info. a. plate # B. Make and modle of car c. Any damage or markings Any info you think the police can use. Then let them do thier jobs THATS WHAT THEY ARE PAID TO DO. Somtimes the best action to take is none at all. [red]That just my thoughts of course, but I'm sure you will hear from the internet RAMBOS on how the will killem all with a hollywooooood weapon that never runs out of ammo....lol[/red] Yeah, but what if I had the gun that Pacino used in HEAT? CW |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 10:50:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: ... Then I'd draw and fire wildly while screaming like a girl. If the gun doesn't scare em, my insane behavior might... Thanks!! Now I have little droplets of Skoal all over my screen!! [:D] |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 10:55:50 PM EDT
[#18]
you have 'TACTICALLY' already done the right thing by questioning yourself/your reactions.
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Posted: 12/17/2003 11:08:50 PM EDT
[#19]
If they are fer real gangbangers the possibility exists they have been in more firefights than you. the question then becomes the Wild Bill Hickock strategy of hitting your first accurate shot before they get a lucky or planned shot into you. If they are just waving in the air and making noise, you have a chance. If they come in looking like they know what they are doing you probably don't. Can ylu draw and fire accurately into the higher risk target before one or both see you making your move and react?
If you are on your belly will they find your ccw when pulling your wallet? (rear waist band carry?) If yes, 90% odds they figure your an LEO and they cap you. If your gun is on you belly and you stay on it, then you got better odds of surviving. Part of it comes down to situational awareness, are you sitting where you can see who's coming in the door? If yes, you mayalready have your gun in hand underthe table during the opening announcements, you can probably win, maybe, not really. Who is sitting across from you and acting as your cover?? You want them to take a shot in the back? You never know until it goes down. (Plus it sounds like Whataburgers are to be avoided in that part of town. If I was in LA I'ld worry about the LAPD SIS unit shooting it out with them while I had a burger in my hands.) |
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Posted: 12/17/2003 11:48:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Hard question, impossible to monday moringin quarterback because of the number of variables present. One of which being that I wansn't there.
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Posted: 12/18/2003 12:14:56 AM EDT
[#21]
C_C my friend SA said my peice.They find you "holding" your a unknown target.IMO its time to draw right before and surprise.....dead guys!
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Posted: 12/18/2003 12:23:49 AM EDT
[#22]
First I'd grab Romeo and tell him to tell hunny bunny to be cool.
Seriously, living in MO I would lay there like all the other sheep. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 2:12:37 AM EDT
[#23]
I bet the employees spit in the robbers burgers...!
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Posted: 12/18/2003 2:48:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: If your going to pull that pistol, you better assume you're facing down a young Jeff Cooper. Shoot for your life and don't expect them to run away. Can I get an AMEN? |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 3:18:30 AM EDT
[#25]
I would defend.
The circumstances of the situation would dictate how but I always place myself in the best possible (within reason) position to defend when we go out to dinner. The wife knows the drill and will ask me where I will sit etc. It's just habit now. I'm usually facing the entrance or that direction or where I can have a clear view. Make a mental note of cover & concealment possibilities and kinda play a 30 sec "what if" scenerio out in my head. So the plan here would have been to wait for the shotgunner to look the other way or to be distracted and take him out first since he is the greatest threat. The handgun guy second since most thugs can't hit a man size target past contact range, especially under stress. Now all this would have depended on the distance between the thugs and me. At contact range, I may have tried a disarm. Too many variables to say for certain how it could have been handled by an armed defender. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 3:44:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Would depend on the factors involved. But I don't see myself getting into a shootout with Snoopdog & Posse to save the Whammy Burger payroll. If they tried to crowd everyone into the walk-in cooler, it would be a different story. Roger Dale Stafford summarily executed 6 people in the walk-in cooler at a Sirloin Stockaide in Oklahoma City in 1978. A bunch of "homies" repeated this scenario at a Lee's Chicken in Tulsa in 1990. This is similar to the "handcuff" scenario described by John Bowman in Unintended Consequences, you have turned over all control to your captors. If they try to get you into the walk-in, where gunshots can't be heard [b](and no one can hear you scream),[/b] it would be the shoot-out at the OK Corral. Backup or not...If you're gonna kill me, you're gonna do it where I choose right here in front of everybody. Not some where in private. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 3:45:15 AM EDT
[#27]
This situation is clusterf*ck anyway you go about. I make it a point to always sit near/next to an emergency exit. My first option is always to run, and avoid the firefight.
Read the survivor's account of the Luby's massacre, and you will always want to be next to an exit and armed. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1445 http://www.geocities.com/jermil.geo/lubys.html |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 3:57:38 AM EDT
[#28]
This situation has been on my mind a lot the last few weeks. I covered this in an earlier thread [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=216016&w=searchPop[/url] During the holiday season, I have been working special duty at my workplace selling gift certificates. Usually by the end of the night, I have $1000+ in cash in my pockets. I work in an area not visible to my coworkers, by myself, so of course I am concerned about an armed robbery. I have been packing my USP .40S&W, and practicing drawing from concealed while sitting down anytime there are no customers in the area. Nothing has happened yet, and I pray that it doesn't. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 4:03:18 AM EDT
[#29]
What I would do is go to the next city counsel meeting and raise hell about why the police force is ether under staffed or under trained to prevent this type of thing.
My city has as many as 1 Million daily visitors, yet we have only a hand full of armed robberies a year. The reason is we have a reputation for killing bank robbers as they leave the bank, and we have a very good arrest and prosecution rate for non bank armed robberies. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:14:31 AM EDT
[#30]
MAke sure you carry your "FLAsHBANG" grenade next to your spare mags....
edit: seriously the situation would dictate...If I personally started to feel threatened, about to be frisked, or a loved one in the same rigamaror...well Katie Bar the Door...These guys are stupid and do stupid things because they are either scared or trying to prove a point. How may times have people been run off the road or approached in their car in Houston by dumbasses with a gun? MANY!Then the innocent produce a pistola and the ganabangers shit their pants and run......You make the best decision when and if the time comes....if you fear for your life you WILL DECIDE... It IS hard to imagine that it couldve been you in there that night....try and keep your head on your shoulders..and IF you can escape then do so... |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:29:22 AM EDT
[#31]
The thing that should factor in your thinking is this: every armed robbery is one or more murders waiting to happen. That's why it's legal to kill robbers. When they start herding people into the cooler it's too late. When you sit quietly up to the moment that a clerk gets mouthy and gets shot, it's too late. Robbers are sociopaths.
I thought long and hard about carrying again, because having the power to thwart evil and protect innocence may very well carry with it the moral obligation to do so. I have no idea how I'd respond in the moment, but theoretically, if I see someone wrongly threatening another person with a gun, I'll take him out if I can. I think I'm obligated to do so. Doing otherwise is like having water in abundance and deciding that it's not your place to give any of it to to stranger fainting with thirst. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:34:45 AM EDT
[#32]
Complicity = survival.
I think not. It [i]may[/i] keep you alive, and it may not, depending on the whim of the criminal who you do not know. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:38:50 AM EDT
[#33]
Does anyone feel they are up to the task of cooly drawing their gun, and making aimed shots at the two robbers?
I don't know if I am. But I think head shots would be necessary in this situation for instant incapacitation. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:43:37 AM EDT
[#34]
I'd attempt to ditch my wallet with has my badge and ID...
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:44:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Does anyone feel they are up to the task of cooly drawing their gun, and making aimed shots at the two robbers? I don't know if I am. But I think head shots would be necessary in this situation for instant incapacitation. I would be very reluctant to try for a head shot with a handgun in a crowded restaurant unless the BG was using my kid for concealment. COM. You don't have to euthanize them, just take them out of play. If a head shot is necessary after they're both horizontal, then so be it, but I'm not going to gamble others' lives on my ability to put a pistol round in a 7" cirle while hopped up on adrenaline, unless there's a real good chance I'll leave stippling around the entry wound. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:47:35 AM EDT
[#36]
With the caveat that I wasn't there... I'd probably have engaged them immediately, rather than waiting for them to decide I'm a threat.
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:49:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: Does anyone feel they are up to the task of cooly drawing their gun, and making aimed shots at the two robbers? I don't know if I am. But I think head shots would be necessary in this situation for instant incapacitation. I would be very reluctant to try for a head shot with a handgun in a crowded restaurant unless the BG was using my kid for concealment. COM. You don't have to euthanize them, just take them out of play. If a head shot is necessary after they're both horizontal, then so be it, but I'm not going to gamble others' lives on my ability to put a pistol round in a 7" cirle while hopped up on adrenaline, unless there's a real good chance I'll leave stippling around the entry wound. So, how would you take them out of play? Double tap to the chest/back? Groin shot? |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:51:42 AM EDT
[#38]
Since I'd likely have been out with my missus and since I'd be more in fear of a "Luby's" redux than my own safety, I'd engage the threat.
I would tell my missus to hit the deck while I cleared leather and found such cover as I could. I would then carefully engage, using the tactics learned through years of IDPA practice...while at the same time SCREAMING SILENTLY TO MYSELF TO STAY CALM AND TAKE GOOD SHOTS!. Make those hits COUNT! I would also be counting on the perps not being Wild Bill Hickock types. Lastly...I'd be scared out of my wits...and probably peeing my britches...but I would most definitely engage them. Hell...that is why I carry in the first place. I have to depend on my abilities and my faith that I'm better than they are...and IF I can surprise them, I might just have an edge. Hopefully, at the first sight of my evil black P-99, they are history and notbody gets hurt. If not...??? Who knows whether or not they want to leave any witnesses? If not...then we have another massacre on our hands. I would have to assume the worst and not depend on the bad guys' good holiday spirit to not kill us all. They are going down...I might lose...but I'd have done my level best to ruin their day. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 5:55:06 AM EDT
[#39]
I drove by the restaurant after I started this thread last night, and noticed they were open (24 hour drive-through).
I think I may stop by this evening and talk to the employees to see how things were really. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:00:58 AM EDT
[#40]
We recently had a case (3-4 days ago) where an off-duty LEO, who had just dropped off his daughter at school after working the night shift, stopped for some breakfast. Shortly after sitting down, thug-boy walked into the resturant, drew his weapon, and announced "OK, you MF'ers know what time it is!". Off-duty LEO, while thug-boy was busy trying to get cash, silently slipped his CCW out and drew down before announcing "Police Officer, drop your weapon!" Thug-boy tried to turn to get a bead on the cop, raising his weapon in the process. He took two rounds in the abdomen from off-duty LEO. Last I heard he was alive, but in critical condition after surgery. LEO was hailed as a hero.
Situation provided the opportunity for him to get the drop on the guy, plus he was training not only to use his weapon, but to properly access the situation. I don't think his actions would have been the same given different circumstances. If the were more than 1 bad guy, if there was a hostage taken, if there was an innocent in the line of fire all may have contributed to different outcomes. Bottom line: depends on the circumstances. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:02:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: What I would do is go to the next city counsel meeting and raise hell about why the police force is ether under staffed or under trained to prevent this type of thing. That's rediculous. It's the same argument the antis use against CCW. Newsflash: As the perps leave the building, it may be too late for john and jane doe. [rolleyes] Scott |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:06:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Very difficult decision. If these guys are robbing patrons, they are not your standard, easily spooked little jitterbugs...they probably have some experience at this. While that does not mean they are "good" at it, it does mean they probably have some sort of plan...maybe an armed backup outside at the door or pay phone, etc. as well.
As already pointed out, "situational awareness" is your best friend here...see them coming before they see you, and simply leave out the back door if you can. Better yet is to avoid places like this this time of year...eat something else or somewhere else, or go through the drive-through. If caught flat-footed with no warning, you are gonna have a real problem. They are probably doped-up for courage and ready to shoot at the blink of an eye...they may not hit you, but they certainly might hit someone else in there. Experienced stake-out cops know that the best time for a confrontation is after they have the money and have shifted mentally into getaway mode...not while they are in confrontation mode...and better yet, outside the building if possible. You just know that if this turns bad, the news people are going to crucify you...even in Texas...and you only have control over your part of the situation. I would not envy anyone in this situation...maybe damned if you do and dead if you don't. For sure, if you pull that piece, give no warning...shoot them down like rabid dogs. There is no legal requirement to try and get them to drop guns or give up, but it will give them the jump on you if you do. The shotgun is a fearsome weapon at close range, but across a room it must be aimed to hit reliably...not something these guys are usually good at. Hopefully the only blood spilled would be that of the robbers and not you or someone's 6 year old that got caught in the crossfire. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:28:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Methinks the only time I'd draw (this is all hypothetical, since my state doesm't allow CCW because of some ASSHOLES from St.Louis), is if the situation had degenerated into a massacre-type situation.
Stopping a simple armed robbery with a hypothetically concealed, and thus illegal, weapon would make a felon out of me. In an aside note, the Polk County Sherrif's Department did a seminar on CCW when it looked like we all were going to have that privilege and the sherriff said "I don't know why we are going through all this--we know 90% of you guys carry concealed weapons anyway!" Which is pretty much true--just about any pickup in the county has a rifle or pistol under the seat. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:29:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does anyone feel they are up to the task of cooly drawing their gun, and making aimed shots at the two robbers? I don't know if I am. But I think head shots would be necessary in this situation for instant incapacitation. I would be very reluctant to try for a head shot with a handgun in a crowded restaurant unless the BG was using my kid for concealment. COM. You don't have to euthanize them, just take them out of play. If a head shot is necessary after they're both horizontal, then so be it, but I'm not going to gamble others' lives on my ability to put a pistol round in a 7" cirle while hopped up on adrenaline, unless there's a real good chance I'll leave stippling around the entry wound. So, how would you take them out of play? Double tap to the chest/back? Groin shot? Double-tap A COM. Double-tap B COM. Repeat as needed. BTW, if possible I'd try to ensure that as few bystanders as possible were behind me. Can't do much about the backstop the BGs leave you, but you can try to avoid putting innocent people in the BG's "wide shot" area. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:31:16 AM EDT
[#45]
A follow up question: A situation where you draw the weapon, and they have the hostage and they want to you drop your weapon. What should you do? |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:34:37 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: A follow up question: A situation where you draw the weapon, and they have the hostage and they want to you drop your weapon. What should you do? I would drop the weapon. There is no choice, unless I am James Bond and can shoot through the eye. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:49:30 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: A follow up question: A situation where you draw the weapon, and they have the hostage and they want to you drop your weapon. What should you do? I'd go for cover if I wasn't behind cover already. I drop mine and he shoots us both. I don't think so! Mike |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:52:16 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: A follow up question: A situation where you draw the weapon, and they have the hostage and they want to you drop your weapon. What should you do? That's why you first announce your presence with a burst of gunfire. They are engaged in the commission of a forcible felony. There is no obligation (in Florida at least) to warn them and thereby give the opportunity to take a hostage or shoot first. If they already have a hostage, I wouldn't pull the weapon unless I had planned out exactly what I was going to do. Perhaps, for example shoot the non-hostage-holder in the expectation that the holder would react in a way that would give a reasonable clear shot; perhaps shoot the holder in a less-intuitive area of the body. One suspects that the clarity of his thinking would be radically affected by a 230 gr HP in the hip. People are all different, but I don't think I'd put my gun down. That enhances the BG's position relative to your own, which is pretty close to a universally bad outcome. Keeping the gun, and making it clear to the BG that shooting the hostage is signing his death warrant, would be the rational decision. But again, I think the smart play is to avoid making your presence known unless you're in a position to do it with aimed gunfire. |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:54:58 AM EDT
[#49]
I would hate to be in this situation. I would not want them to find my gun and think I was a cop/fed/threat and shoot me just because...
I also don't necessarily want to draw down on a guy with a scattergun... Two guys with no cover..oh the horror.....not good. I'm thinking you have two guys already keyed up with the guns ALREADY out....me drawing from concealment... The only thing I could hope for would be for them to "stack-up" with one not having a shot through the other. At that moment I think I draw and hope for practice to take over..... Not good, not good..... |
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Posted: 12/18/2003 7:01:47 AM EDT
[#50]
All of these 'what would I do if he grabbed a hostage/wouldn't put down their weapons/etc' is exactly why I'd engage immediately. The first hint BG2 would have that there was a problem would be the warm contents of BG1s brain housing group splattering in his face.
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