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Posted: 5/14/2004 11:27:45 AM EST
DENVER — The Roman Catholic bishop of Colorado Springs has said Catholics should not receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights (search), stem-cell research, euthanasia and gay marriage.


Bishop Michael Sheridan (search) said voters should receive the sacrament only if they recant and repent in the confessional. However, he said no one will be enforcing the rule in the Communion line.

While several U.S. bishops have issued similar warnings to Catholic lawmakers who defy church teaching in policymaking, Sheridan is believed to be the first to expand that directive to voters this election year.

Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis said previously he would not give Communion to Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (search) because the senator backs abortion rights.

Archbishop Alfred Hughes of New Orleans and Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston are among those who say Catholic politicians who dissent from church teaching should not seek to receive the sacrament.

Sheridan made his comments in a May 1 pastoral letter published in the diocese's newspaper and sent to each parish in the diocese. It is the second-largest in Colorado, covering 125,000 Catholics in 10 counties.

The bishop's statement drew sharp criticism from some quarters.

"I think it is an outrageous intrusion into what is supposed to be the separation of church and state. It is frightening," said Michael Merrifield, a Democratic state lawmaker who is not Catholic but represents part of the heavily religious Colorado Springs area. "It goes against everything that we believe is important to democracy since we founded this country."

In his letter, Sheridan said the separation of church and state does not mean that the "well-formed consciences of religious people should not be brought to bear on their political choices."

"Any Catholic politicians who advocate for abortion, for illicit stem cell research or for any form of euthanasia ipso facto place themselves outside full communion with the church," he said.

Sheridan did not return a call Friday from The Associated Press. But he told The Denver Post he singled out abortion and the other topics because they are "intrinsically evil." He also decried same-sex marriage as deviant behavior.

In practice, his warning will probably not have much impact on Catholics taking Communion because no questions are asked beforehand.

Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver has not taken a stand so far on whether defiant Catholic lawmakers should receive Communion, but he has criticized them, saying they offer a "dishonest public witness."

Several other bishops have said they would not be comfortable denying Communion to Catholic politicians.

A special panel of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (search) is developing guidelines for church leaders in their relationships with Catholic lawmakers. But it's not clear whether any action will come before Election Day.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:30:02 AM EST
Just last week the Vatican condemned the US military for sexual abuse of its prisoners at Abu Grhaib. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:31:15 AM EST
Well, heck, should we round them up and kill all of them?
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:33:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 11:35:15 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:44:37 AM EST
I don't have a problem with this John. The Dogma of the Catholic church has always been that one can not receive communion while knowing under mortal sin.

Abortion and gay marriage are both mortal sins.

WTF is wrong with you poeple? You were mad at the Church when they didn't make a moral stance on the gay issue and now you get upset when they do take a moral stance.

And many of us common catholicsa where the ones that pushed the Bishops to fix the gay problem in our churches, when the leaders didn't respond we did!!

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:46:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Just last week the Vatican condemned the US military for sexual abuse of its prisoners at Abu Grhaib. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.



NEVER has the Catholic church said gay or underaged sex was okay. However, they handled the situation poorly and swept the problem under the rug instead of fixing it. For that I fault them and they were wrong.

SGtar15
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:51:05 AM EST
Why do people always associate Catholic with Christian????

There is GROSS ignorance as to what a Christian actually is.

Many Catholics are Chritians. Many are not.

If you got a beef with Catholics, SAY IT THAT WAY.

Much of Catholic doctrine is against what Christ taught.

You need to educate yourself.



Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:52:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Much of Catholic doctrine is against what Christ taught.

You need to educate yourself.






Focus Gman Focus!!

SGtar15
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 11:53:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 11:53:35 AM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
So Christians have no right to say what they believe? And to attempt to persuade their fellow Christians what they should believe?

How thoroughly un-American!



I've got no problem with the Church officials saying this. They are public people, but are not public officals. This being said, the church must be careful in its wording. Their tax status can be in doubt if they support candidates. They've got to stick with positions, and let their flock connect those dots...
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:02:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 12:03:37 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By garandman:
Why do people always associate Catholic with Christian????

There is GROSS ignorance as to what a Christian actually is.

Many Catholics are Chritians. Many are not.

If you got a beef with Catholics, SAY IT THAT WAY.

Much of Catholic doctrine is against what Christ taught.

You need to educate yourself.





You need to keep stop putting down other Christians. It Gods job to decide who is "true" or not.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:04:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 12:05:59 PM EST by TomJefferson]
I take it you support abortion rights (search), stem-cell research, euthanasia and gay marriage.


Otherwise, why the hell would you care how they feel afterall they aren't denying you anything.

Tj

BTW, second Sgtar's request focus Gman, the Catholics are on your side on this one.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:06:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 12:12:27 PM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

You need to keep stop putting down other Christians. It Gods job to decide who is "true" or not.




Uhmm, SPCIFICALLY which Christians have I put down?

In fact, FIRST define what a Christian actually is.

Its REAL simple. Hint: You should be able to do it in 8 words. Its something more well defined than "non cannibals."



Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:08:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Focus Gman Focus!!

SGtar15



I have a SINGULAR focus for this thread - educating people as to what a Christian actually is.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:11:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
, the Catholics are on your side on this one.




That reality is only of secondary concern here. I beleive what I beleive. Those who scoff at me for what I beleive waste their time far as I personally am concerned, cuz pleasing them is a non-factor in me choosing what I beleive.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:14:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
, the Catholics are on your side on this one.




That reality is only of secondary concern here. I beleive what I beleive. Those who scoff at me for what I beleive waste their time far as I personally am concerned, cuz pleasing them is a non-factor in me choosing what I beleive.




Gman, you would split your own Army in half just to make a wasted point on deaf ears.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:15:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By John91498:
DENVER — The Roman Catholic bishop of Colorado Springs has said Catholics should not receive Communion if they vote for politicians who support abortion rights (search), stem-cell research, euthanasia and gay marriage.





Apparently, in addition to a separation of church and state (a Constitutional myth) you also beleive in a spearation of church and church.

Not only can the church have no say in the political arena, now they can have no say in the religious arena???



If that's your position, BY ALL MEANS, please hate me. In fact, put me at the top of your list.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:15:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 12:16:42 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

You need to keep stop putting down other Christians. It Gods job to decide who is "true" or not.




Uhmm, SPCIFICALLY which Christians have I put down?

In fact, FIRST define what a Christian actually is.

Its REAL simple. Hint: You should be able to do it in 8 words. Its something more well defined than "non cannibals."






I think many Catholics would take offence to these remarks:

"Many Catholics are Chritians. Many are not."

"Much of Catholic doctrine is against what Christ taught."


Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:18:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Gman, you would split your own Army in half just to make a wasted point on deaf ears.

Sgtar15




No, I would merely point out to a certain part of "my army" that we aren't necessarily on the same army.

Those peoples souls, who have not received Jesus Chirst as their personal Saviour, are on their way to hell. They matter too much to me to play along with the charade.

And if I must bear their scorn to warn them of their danger, I will gladly bear it. I'm glad someone warned me.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:19:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 12:21:20 PM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

I think many Catholics would take offence to these remarks:

"Many Catholics are Chritians. Many are not."

"Much of Catholic doctrine is against what Christ taught."





I'm sure they would. But that statement by me is no more putting them down, than a doctor re-setting a broken bone is abuse of his patient.

I can back up my statement (quoted above) if you'd like.

Oh, and please go ahead and define what you beleive a Christian actually is.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:53:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
So Christians have no right to say what they believe? And to attempt to persuade their fellow Christians what they should believe?

How thoroughly un-American!



I've got no problem with the Church officials saying this. They are public people, but are not public officals. This being said, the church must be careful in its wording. Their tax status can be in doubt if they support candidates. They've got to stick with positions, and let their flock connect those dots...



one of the worst things the church (almost all of them) ever did was buy into this "tax-free" status.

major error. The church should be able to say with no fear of .gov penalties what they think about every aspect of life, and that includes politics.


Link Posted: 5/14/2004 12:56:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By danonly:
one of the worst things the church (almost all of them) ever did was buy into this "tax-free" status.

major error. The church should be able to say with no fear of .gov penalties what they think about every aspect of life, and that includes politics.





I agree.

The proper method to accomplish that is NOT in the church tempering what it says, but rather in people smacking the gov't in the snout.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 1:30:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Many Catholics are Chritians. Many are not.

You need to educate yourself.




LOL. Who needs to educate themselves? this guy --------->>> garandman <<<<-----------
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 1:31:55 PM EST
more christian bashing, great
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:39:12 PM EST
Putting Catholics into the same class as a Reformed Christian believer is like comparing (dare I say)
Apples to Oranges.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 4:59:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Oh, and please go ahead and define what you beleive a Christian actually is.



Chris·tian
adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:02:11 PM EST
USPC40 -


EXCELLENT!!!! Thank you.

A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.

COnversely, those who do NOT follow the teachings of CHrist are NOT CHristians.

(Granted, were talking BIG picture here, not every single individual act i.e. NOT saying Chrisians are sinlessly perfect)

Traditional Catholic doctrine has numerous significant deviations from the teachings of CHrist.

Y'all do understand about the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, etc etc etc??? Right???

Ergo, Catholic is NOT necessarily same as Christian.

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:07:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/14/2004 6:09:27 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By garandman:
USPC40 -


EXCELLENT!!!! Thank you.

A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ.

COnversely, those who do NOT follow the teachings of CHrist are NOT CHristians.

(Granted, were talking BIG picture here, not every single individual act i.e. NOT saying Chrisians are sinlessly perfect)

Traditional Catholic doctrine has numerous significant deviations from the teachings of CHrist.

Y'all do understand about the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, etc etc etc??? Right???

Ergo, Catholic is NOT necessarily same as Christian.




Again, I will point out that it is not your postion to decide who is a Christian and who is not. God himself decides who is "true". I'm getting sick of these "Holyer than thou" posts of yours. I do not need "educating" by you on the AR15.com general forum of all places. If you have a problem with Catholics keep it to yourself. I personally get offended by your remarks.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:18:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Again, I will point out that it is not your postion to decide who is a Christian and who is not. God himself decides who is "true". .




Quite right. And I'm just repeating what God has said on the subject.

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

"If any man would follow me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me"

"By their fruit (lifestyle) you will know them" (as to whether they are a child of God)

Are you familiar with the etymology of the word "Christian?"

Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:21:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I do not need "educating" by you on the AR15.com general forum of all places. If you have a problem with Catholics keep it to yourself. I personally get offended by your remarks.




Well, I didn't mean to offend. AS I said, I realize the truth will hurt, and I'm willing to bear the slings and arrows that telling it might cause me.

I have NO IDEA whether you are a child of God or not. ANd I make no such judgment about you.

I merely wish to convey the truth of God's Word,a nd let you decide for yourself.

Link Posted: 5/15/2004 4:27:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Again, I will point out that it is not your postion to decide who is a Christian and who is not. God himself decides who is "true". .




Quite right. And I'm just repeating what God has said on the subject.

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

"If any man would follow me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me"

"By their fruit (lifestyle) you will know them" (as to whether they are a child of God)

Are you familiar with the etymology of the word "Christian?"





Lord give me strength

Are you unfamilar with the Catholic Catachism?

If unfamiliar, then how can you profess knowledge of what we believe and what we don't?
If you know what Catholics 'are all about', then please show me how your above statements do not apply to us.

Why do certain people on this board continually try to divide us rather than focus on what unites us?
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 5:58:57 AM EST
Don't confuse ritualistic religion with Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with the God of the Bible, not just going through the physical motions of religion. There are many good Catholics who are Christian, but there are lots of people take refuge in the Catholic church who hide under the cloak of religious practice. While I am in agreement with the stance the church is taking on this matter, there are many other things I cannot agree with.
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:17:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By martinmayhem:
Don't confuse ritualistic religion with Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with the God of the Bible, not just going through the physical motions of religion. There are many good Catholics who are Christian, but there are lots of people take refuge in the Catholic church who hide under the cloak of religious practice. While I am in agreement with the stance the church is taking on this matter, there are many other things I cannot agree with.



Hell you can say this about any church I have ever walked through the doors of.

Tj
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:24:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/15/2004 6:24:53 AM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:33:52 AM EST
Jesus clearly stated to St. Peter: Upon this rock I will build my church<---paraphrase.

St. Peter was the first Pope. From there I can directly trace the Catholic religion. There is a direct uncut line from Jesus to the modern day Catholic Church. This can not be said for any other Christin religion. I am not saying in anyway the others are bad.

But it is clear that Catholic are Christians regards less of Gamn prejudies.

Sgatr15
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:42:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus clearly stated to St. Peter: Upon this rock I will build my church<---paraphrase.

St. Peter was the first Pope. From there I can directly trace the Catholic religion. There is a direct uncut line from Jesus to the modern day Catholic Church. This can not be said for any other Christin religion. I am not saying in anyway the others are bad.

But it is clear that Catholic are Christians regards less of Gamn prejudies.

Sgatr15




you got some poor interpretation skills if that is how you take that statement. Upon this rock that will deny me three times I will build my church- whatta great first pope.

you really want us to examine every pope in your uncut line? there are several popes that made the current altar boy sex abuse scandal seem like tiddly winks, something done for relaxation from the heavy sinning.

I think Jesus is referencing Peter's faith- the church is built on faith.

Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:47:23 AM EST
"So Christians have no right to say what they believe?"

Apparently only if it's directly in line with the teachings of the church.
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:49:12 AM EST
There were many, many bad Popes. Hell, there was even 3 popes at the same time once!

But it still shows a direct line from now to Jesus. ANyone that thinks Catholics are not Christians is a fool. That's all I am saying.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 6:58:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
"So Christians have no right to say what they believe?"

Apparently only if it's directly in line with the teachings of the church.



HUH? It's their church. You can say what you want and believe what you want but doesn't mean their church has to accept you.

Even though my Beagle feels she's human doesn't make me have to let her sleep in the house.

Tj
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 7:20:34 AM EST


"I think it is an outrageous intrusion into what is supposed to be the separation of church and state. It is frightening," said Michael Merrifield, a Democratic state lawmaker who is not Catholic but represents part of the heavily religious Colorado Springs area. "It goes against everything that we believe is important to democracy since we founded this country."

In his letter, Sheridan said the separation of church and state does not mean that the "well-formed consciences of religious people should not be brought to bear on their political choices."

"Any Catholic politicians who advocate for abortion, for illicit stem cell research or for any form of euthanasia ipso facto place themselves outside full communion with the church," he said.


Sheridan did not return a call Friday from The Associated Press. But he told The Denver Post he singled out abortion and the other topics because they are "intrinsically evil." He also decried same-sex marriage as deviant behavior.



Exactly!

Unfortunately. TOO FEW Catholics understand this and believe this. Bishop Sheridan is virtually a lone voice calling out in the wilderness.

Yet another reason I left that church.

-LS
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 8:04:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
There were many, many bad Popes. Hell, there was even 3 popes at the same time once!

But it still shows a direct line from now to Jesus. ANyone that thinks Catholics are not Christians is a fool. That's all I am saying.

SGatr15



what i am saying is i don't get how the uncut line of popes has anything to do with a catholic being a christian.

and who does the catholic church say is the second pope? (i'd hope it is either james or paul, but im an evie, so what do i know?)
Link Posted: 5/15/2004 8:23:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By MIerinMD:

Why do certain people on this board continually try to divide us rather than focus on what unites us?




I am not dividing us.

I just have teh audacity to point it out, in the cases where it might / does exist. And in those cases I REFUSE to pretend a division doesn't exist.

The ONLY unity that is relevant in this forum is the pursuit and advancement of Constitutionally guaranteed firearms rights.

Anything else is fair game.

Link Posted: 5/15/2004 8:32:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/15/2004 8:43:48 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Jesus clearly stated to St. Peter: Upon this rock I will build my church<---paraphrase.

.

Sgatr15



The name "Peter" or "Cephas" actually means "a small stone" - like a pebble. Pebbles do NOT make good cornerstones for building upon.

The "this rock" Jesus was referring to was Peter's confession of faith - "Thou art the Christ, the SOn of the living God." Check the passage out in Scripture you cite. THAT confession by Peter (i.e. Christ's deity, and His being the promised Messiah) is the HUGE STONE Christ said He would build His church upon.


THINK about it - why would CHrist build HIS church on Peter, or any line of human beings with a 70 year shelf life, when He could build His church on HIMSELF??? (No way to say this without being offensive, but its EXACTLY that type of skewed Scriptural interpretation as promulgated by the Catholic church, is what worries me into thinking we MAY not be on the same "army", to use someone elses analogy. Granted, I am NOT saying we are DEFINITIVELY not in the same army, I just have cause for concern)

Ironically, this is EXACTLY the point I am making. OUTSIDE JESUS CHRIST, our religion is BUNK. So called Christians and Catholics alike who are outside Jesus Christ, those who have not received the free gift of salvation He made possible and freely offers all men, are quite literally on "shifting sands / pebbles."

Link Posted: 5/15/2004 8:33:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
I am not dividing us.

I just have teh audacity to point it out, in the cases where it might / does exist. And in those cases I REFUSE to pretend a division doesn't exist.

The ONLY unity that is relevant in this forum is the pursuit and advancement of Constitutionally guaranteed firearms rights.

Anything else is fair game.




yup. thats why its called "general discussion"

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