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Posted: 10/20/2004 7:38:10 AM EST
http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story/4124708p-3890580c.html
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:39:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:41:18 AM EST
Police stun 75-year-old
Rock Hill chief says Taser was used after woman attacked officer


The Rock Hill Police Department is investigating why an officer used an electric stun gun on a 75-year-old woman who refused to leave a nursing home where she had gone to visit an ailing friend.
The woman, Margaret Kimbrell, said she suffered bruises on her leg and face after she was knocked to the floor by the force of the weapon, called a Taser.

Police Chief John Gregory said Tuesday the department is reviewing whether Officer Hattie Macon's use of the Taser was appropriate -- a step that is taken in unusual or high-profile cases.

"On face value, it looks like it was," he said. "We have a person who was asked to leave, who refused and who attempted to assault the officer."

Gregory did not say when the review would be completed. Kimbrell said Tuesday she's considering legal action against the department.

Kimbrell went to EdenGardens of Rock Hill, a retirement home on Constitution Boulevard, Friday evening to visit a friend who was scheduled to have colon surgery this week, she said.

Soon after she arrived, a staff member called police to have her removed for trespassing. A relative of the friend told an EdenGardens administrator she did not want Kimbrell there, said Larry Boesen, the home's executive director.

Police and Kimbrell offer two different versions of what happened after police arrived.

According to the police report, Kimbrell was sitting in a chair in a waiting area when Macon, 35, ordered her to leave several times. Kimbrell refused, jerking her arms away when Macon tried to lead her toward the door.

Police say Kimbrell eventually got up but walked toward the cafeteria after spotting someone she knew. At that point, the officer blocked Kimbrell and told her she was under arrest. Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer, according to the police report.

That's when Macon used the Taser and placed Kimbrell under arrest.

Kimbrell on Tuesday disagreed with that version of events.

She said she did not swing her arm or threaten Macon.

"As weak as I am, how could I do that?" said Kimbrell, who has arthritis and suffered six broken ribs in a recent fall in her back yard. "Maybe I was trespassing, but I didn't know it. I thought they would understand."

She said she got upset because no one would tell her where her friend was -- or even if he was alive.

"I thought he had died," she said. "I was trying to keep from crying."

Kimbrell said Macon pressed the Taser to her back and used it during the exchange, causing Kimbrell to hit the floor.

"It was the worst pain," said Kimbrell. "It felt like something going through my body. I thought I was dying. I said, 'Lord, let it be over.'"

Kimbrell said she asked the officer and others at the scene to dial 911 because she was hurt. According to the police report, no one was injured in the incident.

Macon could not be reached for comment.

Kimbrell, of 1211 Meadow Lakes Road, was taken to the police department and later issued a citation for resisting police and trespassing. She spent three hours in a police holding area until her daughter, Donna, picked her up around 10 p.m., she said.

Kimbrell said she later learned her ailing friend was out taking a walk during the incident.

Review has been launched

According to the department's policy manual, cases when officers can use Tasers include when a suspect is threatening to punch or kick, or when officers "reasonably believe a suspect poses a credible threat."

"I have to believe at that moment, that's what the officer had to believe," Gregory said. "We have to look at what was reasonable under the circumstances. The determination about somebody being right or wrong has not been made."

Macon, who joined the department almost 18 months ago, remains on duty, said Gregory. The department has received no previous complaints about her performance.

"I can't overemphasize how concerned I am," said Gregory. "This case is getting a lot of attention, and I understand that ... If we find excessive force was used, we will take the appropriate disciplinary action."

The department is aware that Kimbrell and her family are planning to file a formal complaint, Gregory said.

Tasers prove effective

Nearly all of Rock Hill's 110 police officers have carried Tasers since last year, Gregory said. They've been used 57 times this year with no injuries reported, he said.

Before they are issued the device, officers must complete a four-hour training course that includes having a Taser used on them. They also must take a refresher course once a year.

Macon took the refresher course last month, said Capt. Charles Cabannis.

The devices have proven safer and more effective than batons and pepper spray, Gregory said.

"We have noticed a substatial reduction in injuries to suspects and officers since we've used them," he said. "It's kept us from having to fight people. We haven't had to beat anybody with clubs."

Gregory said an official from the S.C. Criminal Justice Academy had called Tuesday morning to ask if the department could lead a Taser training exercise for other state agencies -- a sign that the department's policies are well-respected.

"They're using us as an example," Gregory said. "We have a strict policy."


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:44:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:46:51 AM EST
Duh yeah
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:48:25 AM EST
GrandCRACKA DOWN!!!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:51:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:53:37 AM EST
Not mentioned in the story, but I would bet money that the little old lady is white, and the police woman was a Black Female.....
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:54:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
Duh yeah

What did the officer do wrong, and what should he have done?



If an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without using something that dramatic he shouldn't be on the force.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:57:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:58:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 8:00:20 AM EST by ctprelude]
You can't tell me the officer couldn't just grab her arms so she couldnt hit him and walk her out of the place. Plus isn't using a taser on someone that old a pretty serious risk of invoking a heart attack?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:58:44 AM EST
Musta' been one more Mean, BAD-ASS GRANNY.

Right, if you have to taze little ol' ladies like this, sitting in a Nursing Home, you might be in the wrong line of work.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:59:51 AM EST
Hey, at least they didn't night stick her!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:02:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:02:20 AM EST
Looks like a good call by the officer to me.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:02:52 AM EST
In all honesty, the taser was likely a far safer bet than physically restraining her. Wrestling with or taking someone down forcefully can break bones and crack heads. Tasers don't break bones, they just make you temporarily lose control of your body's ability to function. That makes the need for physical force not needed, thus making it safer.

BTW, just because she was 75 years old doesn't make her an angel. Someone her age should have better frigging sense than to start a fight to begin with, especially with cops.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:05:50 AM EST
Some 75 year olds are suffering from Alzheimers or dementia.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:08:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Some 75 year olds are suffering from Alzheimers or dementia.



Shock Therapy, clears it right up.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:15:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 8:16:10 AM EST by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By ctprelude:
Plus isn't using a taser on someone that old a pretty serious risk of invoking a heart attack?



You tell us, Doctor.

Attempting to physically restrain someone who is hell bent on resisting will result in that person suffering real physical injuries. I suppose you would feel better if she came out of this with some broken bones?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:15:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 8:16:15 AM EST by Lord_Grey_Boots]

Originally Posted By ctprelude:
You can't tell me the officer couldn't just grab her arms so she couldnt hit him and walk her out of the place. Plus isn't using a taser on someone that old a pretty serious risk of invoking a heart attack?



"Grabbing her arms" is more likely to result in an injury, especially if the grabbee resists. The taser does not cause heart attacks (wrong type of electrical signal).

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:20:35 AM EST
How's her dog doing?

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:23:53 AM EST
75 year old people don't hurt anybody...

Oh wait, it was a 73 year old guy that shot two Customs Officers in Calexico.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:28:47 AM EST
Speaking of violent and disorderly old women, this thread for some strange reason or other reminded me of "Ma" (Ruth Gordon) in the Every Which Way But Loose movie. Remember the scene where she took on the biker gang with a 12 gauge pump? LOL. Her character kicked ass. Plus, she'd make a sailor blush with her language.

Come back here with my Oreos you hairy ass!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:37:04 AM EST
So one of her friend's relatives said she couldn't be there?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:50:12 AM EST
Tranquilizer dart would work.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:28:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
Duh yeah

What did the officer do wrong, and what should he have done?



the officer is a WOMAN.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:35:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:21:58 AM EST
What is the appropriate way to arrest someone for trespassing who is violently resisting arrest?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:22:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
Duh yeah

What did the officer do wrong, and what should he have done?



If an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without using something that dramatic he shouldn't be on the force.



TASER is the lowest level of force beyond verbal comands in most agencies that issue them.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:23:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By ctprelude:
You can't tell me the officer couldn't just grab her arms so she couldnt hit him and walk her out of the place.



That is considered more force than the TASER.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:27:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Hey, at least they didn't night stick her!



True story. A partner of mine went to arrest a man on a court order violation. During the arrest the mans 65yo mother jumped on the arresting officers back, hitting, scratching, and biting him. He arrested both of them. the DA refused to prosecute the mother becuase he didnt think the jury would convict an old woman who was "protecting" her son.

My partner figured it out after that. Next time someone jumps on his back they get a broken leg from an ASP, regaurdless of gender or age.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:28:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What is the appropriate way to arrest someone for trespassing who is violently resisting arrest?



Shoot the dog! (...or was that a rhetorical question?)


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:29:26 AM EST
what the officer did was probably as per regulations and correct but it will not look good when the lawyes are done because nothing ever looks good aymore when the lawyers get done.

the cop was stuck between a rock an a hard place here. she had no choice but to remove her from the premises since the owners asked her to. if she physically restrained her, they would get her for that. she used a taser and they are going screw her for it too.

my opinion,we can get rid of the police and have a free for all or allow them to enforce laws. the bigger problem is that we allow legislatures to continually pass stupid laws that then require enforcement
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:36:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 10:41:17 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:42:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What is the appropriate way to arrest someone for trespassing who is violently resisting arrest?


'Violently'?

How 'violently' can a 75 year old woman resist who recently broke six ribs?

Oh, nevermind, I just remembered that you're an LEO.

She was a vicious and sadistic old gal who needed a good dose of Taser to teach her to mend her evil ways!

Yep. That must be it.

BTW, if someone ever Tasered an elderly relative of mine, I can assure you that both the officer personally and his or her department would be in Court for a very, very long period of time.

Eric The(AndThat'sAFact,Jack)Hun



If you find the TASER so offensive you should work towards getting the laws and use of force policies changed. Because right now the TASER is the lowest level of "force" you can use above "Ma'am would you please step outside."


If the cop uses the TASER withen department policy he will not incur any personal liability or administrative action.


If he skips the TASER in a situation department policy says it should be used, and uses a hands on approach then he may be assuming some personal liability, plus the risk of administrative action for the violation of use of force policy.

Any cop who values his job and his house is going to follow policy.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:46:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What is the appropriate way to arrest someone for trespassing who is violently resisting arrest?


'Violently'?

How 'violently' can a 75 year old woman resist who recently broke six ribs?




And I am willing to bet that fact was only mentioned for the pity factor she thought it would get her. People ahve already posted plenty of examples why a taser was appropriate. You go ahead and repeatedly man-handle people vesus using this fairly low-force level and see where it gets you.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:04:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What is the appropriate way to arrest someone for trespassing who is violently resisting arrest?


'Violently'?

How 'violently' can a 75 year old woman resist who recently broke six ribs?




from the article.

"Kimbrell refused, jerking her arms away..."

"Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer..."

That's not passive resistance. It's violent/active resistance, even in Texas.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:06:51 AM EST
If one of our troops in Iraq uses a Taser on an Iraqi prisoner it is considered torture and a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Our troops would be prosecuted for it. Electric shocks have been used against our POWs many times, and we view that (rightly so) as torture, and condemn the country that does it.

But for some reason certain people think using electric shock on a 75 y/o American citizen who wants to visit her friend is okay. WTF, over?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:13:48 AM EST
This is really getting crazy. Am I to believe that an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without a Tazer? Crazy. Just crazy.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:18:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By pazzo:
This is really getting crazy. Am I to believe that an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without a Tazer? Crazy. Just crazy.



Its not a matter of "can". A Taser is considered a lower level of force than physical force. Since we have to generally use the least amount of force needed to accomplish a task, it makes sense to use the taser than to physically grapple with someone. There is a greater chance that someone will be injured if it becomes physical.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:18:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By pazzo:
This is really getting crazy. Am I to believe that an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without a Tazer? Crazy. Just crazy.




try to read the thread.

What exactly do you mean by "subdue." Perhaps gently taking her by the arm and walking her outside? That is MORE force than the TASER.

Try to get over you emotional response to electricity, and realize the TASER is the lowest level of force a cop can use above verbal commands.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:19:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
If one of our troops in Iraq uses a Taser on an Iraqi prisoner it is considered torture and a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Our troops would be prosecuted for it. Electric shocks have been used against our POWs many times, and we view that (rightly so) as torture, and condemn the country that does it.

But for some reason certain people think using electric shock on a 75 y/o American citizen who wants to visit her friend is okay. WTF, over?


A Taser is not torture. Thats the difference.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:22:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 11:24:02 AM EST by Palo_Duro]
I think the reason police get such a negative response about these tazing incidents is that it seems like it's a torture technique.

Do the LEOs who carry them get tazed before being allowed to employ them?

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:24:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
Do the LEOs who carry them get tazed before being allowed to employ them?




Yes.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:25:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
But for some reason certain people think using electric shock on a 75 y/o American citizen...



I saw no mention of her immigration status in the article. do you have some first hand knowledge that leads you to believe she was a US citizen?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:26:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Palo_Duro:
Do the LEOs who carry them get tazed before being allowed to employ them?




Yes.



Good.

I agree with that philosophy - just like the pepper spray.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:28:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
If one of our troops in Iraq uses a Taser on an Iraqi prisoner it is considered torture and a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Our troops would be prosecuted for it. Electric shocks have been used against our POWs many times, and we view that (rightly so) as torture, and condemn the country that does it.

But for some reason certain people think using electric shock on a 75 y/o American citizen who wants to visit her friend is okay. WTF, over?


A Taser is not torture. Thats the difference.



Bullshit. I've been zapped by 50K volts by accident (in tech school... always watch which wires you're cutting!). It isn't fun. A Taser delivers an electric charge directly into the subject, just like a cattle prod. It can and does leave scars. By definition its torture, as it is used to gain the compliance of the person it is used on.

And if a healthy 35 y/o police officer can't gently move a 75 y/o woman with 6 broken ribs and arthritis then there is a problem. The fact you can't see anything wrong with it shows you have an astounding lack of judgement.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:30:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By pazzo:
This is really getting crazy. Am I to believe that an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without a Tazer? Crazy. Just crazy.




try to read the thread.

What exactly do you mean by "subdue." Perhaps gently taking her by the arm and walking her outside? That is MORE force than the TASER.

Try to get over you emotional response to electricity, and realize the TASER is the lowest level of force a cop can use above verbal commands.



Oh, I stand corrected.

Good thing she didn't have a dog with her.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:30:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
But for some reason certain people think using electric shock on a 75 y/o American citizen...



I saw no mention of her immigration status in the article. do you have some first hand knowledge that leads you to believe she was a US citizen?



Was there any indication she was an immigrant? No? Then one assumes she is a citizen. Unless you have some first hand knowledge she isn't.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:31:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By uncle_frank:
Duh yeah

What did the officer do wrong, and what should he have done?



If an officer can't subdue a 75 year old woman without using something that dramatic he shouldn't be on the force.



+1
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:32:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 11:35:25 AM EST by legalese77]
Exactly who considers a disabling electric shock to be more force than firmly grasping someone by the upper arm and escorting them out the door... I'm not saying that could have worked here... I'm just trying to understand... it seems that it is being suggested that using a taser is considered (by who, I dunno) to be a lesser use of force than any sort of touching at all.

I'm guessing that the law enforcement agency has made this determination. Regardless, it is patently nonsensical to automatically categorize all forms of touching as more forceful than a taser blast.

What implications does this have on child raising? Would it be considered abuse by these same law enforcement agencies if parents tased their kids every time they refused to eat dinner or return to their rooms? After all the taser is less force than a spanking (says you) or forcefully relocating the child to another room.

eta: wtf does the citizenship of this lady have to do with anything, legally speaking? Please provide citations
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