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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 8/1/2002 3:43:35 AM EST
3 Year Old Boy Shot Dead As Father Cleans Gun Aug 1, 2002 6:49 am US/Eastern (1010 WINS)-NEW YORK A 3-year-old boy was fatally shot when his father, an off-duty corrections officer, mistakenly discharged his gun, police said. The shooting took place at about 9 p.m. Wednesday when the man, whose name was not released, was unloading the weapon at his home on 100th Avenue in the Queens Village section of Queens, police said. After a preliminary investigation, police said it appeared the shooting was accidental, according to spokesman Det. Dennis Laffin. The boy, Jonathan Oleya, was shot in the right forearm, and the bullet passed through to his upper torso, police said. He was taken to North Shore University Hospital, where he died just after midnight.
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[url=http://1010wins.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_816089872_html]Link to Story[/url]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:02:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:08:25 AM EST
I thought this was about some Robert Heinlein book.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:20:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 4:22:14 AM EST by TheFNG]
Those damn Glocks if they werent so damn dependable that little boy may be alive... Please someone get these cops Sigs, so that there will be more of a chance of it not going off the next time they decide to unload their gun by pulling the trigger. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:22:00 AM EST
and this is Glock's fault?
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:22:47 AM EST
Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:22:58 AM EST
[b]REPEAT AFTER ME, EVERYONE.... [size=6] [red]MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE![/red][/size=6][/b] Thank you.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:36:49 AM EST
What is it with corrections and probation persons? Is a requirement for the job that your IQ be below room temperature in an unheated house in the wintertime? Frickin' idiots.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:42:56 AM EST
that poor little kid, and I feel very sorry for his dad too. What a terrible tragedy and probably several lives ruined because of inattention to basic firearms rules. If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son. What a good reminder to work harder on basic gun safety.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:48:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 4:52:21 AM EST by redray]
from crashburnrepeat:
...... If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son....
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[b]huh? what exactly do you mean by that? are you assuming that none of us pay constant attention to detail? your assumption lacks credibility! i bet you all my firearms that i [red]WILL NOT[/red] have a negligent discharge in my lifetime.[/b]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:57:58 AM EST
In a very broad sense of speaking....There are two kinds of shooters, those that have HAD an ND and those that WILL. Never hurts to control your muzzle and keep finger off trigger...
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:41:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By TheFNG: Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy.
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Not anymore. I bought a Glock 17 about 4 months ago. Love it. I've put almost 3,000 rounds through it already. FYI, I was referring to the other thread on the board, "Yet another LE 'OOPS!' with a GROCK.... " which was [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=136823]here[/url].
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 6:18:15 AM EST
Seems like a lot of LEO's have this trouble. I think it falls under "familiarity breeds contempt." The officers live with their weapons all the time, and they get too casual about them. Obviously this guy failed to exercise proper discipline and caution when clearing his firearm. What bugs me is the article caption calling it an AD while cleaning his weapon. He wasn't cleaning it, he was clearing it in preparation for cleaning it. That's not the same thing at all. Every time some dumb ass reporter mis-construes a weapon clearing accident as a cleaning accident it makes it look as if firearms just up and load themselves when the officer is cleaning the thing.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 6:22:07 AM EST
Boy I am sure glad that we are to put our future trust in only trained people in law enforcement to have guns. REDRAY! Would you please put me first on your list to recieve your guns when you have that "never will have a accidental discharge in my life"incident. Never say Never.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 6:28:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 6:32:47 AM EST by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By USNA91: [b]REPEAT AFTER ME, EVERYONE.... [size=6] [red]MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE! MUZZLE DISCIPLINE![/red][/size=6][/b] Thank you.
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And while we're at it, let's throw this one in as well, since it almost certainly applies: [b][size=6] [red]TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! TRIGGER DISCIPLINE! [/red][/size=6][/b] It's a shame the kid died, but I highly doubt it was the Glock's fault. Sounds like dear old dad had his finger on the trigger and was pointing the pistol where he should't have. And those anti-gunners only want cops to have guns. Crap like this will still happen. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 6:50:32 AM EST
Pay attention to detail...If You Don't Pull The Trigger, It Won't Fire!
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:18:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 7:31:03 AM EST by texastactical]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:29:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 7:34:46 AM EST by sgtar15]
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later.
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BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img]
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:30:07 AM EST
News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:37:44 AM EST
The father obviously made a mistake. While the glock is not at fault, it's design made the ND easier for the father to cause. He did not point the gun at his kid and fire, read the article. Like many times before, he pulled the trigger to remove the slide and break the gun down, but failed to realize or remember to look to see if a round was in the chamber. Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations. The fault lies with the father, but glock could easily change their design to prevent these things from happening. He is a corrections officer, a low pay, and likely low IQ professional. He cleans his gun often due to his profession. Odds are that he will eventually fail to check the chamber, or check it, and fail to notice the round inside while he goes through the memorized motions of breaking down his firearms and cleaning it. Do to the fact the trigger has to be pulled to remove the slide, it is not surprising he had an ND. It is unfortunate that he shot his kid, but these stories have occurred commonly enough over the years of glock users ND when cleaning their guns. Glocks have two issues which as far as I can tell they have no intention of ever fixing. I don't know if this is due to possible legal problems if the correct the problems or if they just don't care. The two issues are the need to pull the trigger to remove the slide, and the fact the glocks will fire out of battery. Other handgun manufacturer's have corrected their designs over the years as problems are discovered, but glock has not.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:52:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kope: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347
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If it was a service revolver, then this guy was just a complete idiot.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:53:16 AM EST
I guess I missed the part of the Glock manual where it says... 1. Pull trigger while aiming at toddler.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:55:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By TheFNG: Its ok guys Phil here just has some Grock envy.
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Not anymore. I bought a Glock 17 about 4 months ago. Love it. I've put almost 3,000 rounds through it already. FYI, I was referring to the other thread on the board, "Yet another LE 'OOPS!' with a GROCK.... " which was [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=136823]here[/url].
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Oh my bad, I assumed you were the guy that made that post also. Well welcome to the Grock Crub!
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 8:12:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Kope: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347
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Hmmm. I had heard Glock on the news when I heard it. I called the 105th precinct, they didn't know for sure what it was.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 8:24:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By Kope: News said it was a 'service revolver'. See http://www.ny1.com/ny/TopStories/SubTopic/index.html?topicintid=1&subtopicintid=1&contentintid=23347
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Hmmm. I had heard Glock on the news when I heard it. I called the 105th precinct, they didn't know for sure what it was.
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My local news calls [b]anything[/b] a cop carries a "service revolver."
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 8:26:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By gunman0: ...Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations.
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Yep, scary how those things tend to go off when you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber. Perhaps keeping the muzzle pointed away from family members (i.e. muzzle discipline) would have saved the day. I don't agree that the takedown procedure of a Glock is a "defect", but even if it was it would mean that muzzle discipline is that much more important. Just because Glocks require you to pull the trigger on an [b]empty[/b] chamber to field strip doesn't constitute a flaw. Like any firearm, failing to follow general safe practices and manufacturers handling instructions will get someone hurt. Those instructions vary from gun to gun-it doesn't mean that one is intrinsically better or worse than another. In the end this is a story about someone who didn't follow the rules and now has a dead son. It doesn't matter what the rules are or whether or not they're they make the most sense. In this case he violated two rules, one was unique to the Glock (if that's truly what he had) but the other was a cardinal rule of gun safety.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 10:08:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By jsprag:
Originally Posted By gunman0: ...Muzzle and trigger discipline rules do not apply to glock cleaning ND situations.
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Yep, scary how those things tend to go off when you pull the trigger with a round in the chamber. Perhaps keeping the muzzle pointed away from family members (i.e. muzzle discipline) would have saved the day. I don't agree that the takedown procedure of a Glock is a "defect", but even if it was it would mean that muzzle discipline is that much more important. Just because Glocks require you to pull the trigger on an [b]empty[/b] chamber to field strip doesn't constitute a flaw. Like any firearm, failing to follow general safe practices and manufacturers handling instructions will get someone hurt. Those instructions vary from gun to gun-it doesn't mean that one is intrinsically better or worse than another. In the end this is a story about someone who didn't follow the rules and now has a dead son. It doesn't matter what the rules are or whether or not they're they make the most sense. In this case he violated two rules, one was unique to the Glock (if that's truly what he had) but the other was a cardinal rule of gun safety.
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Well, first of all, you have to pull the trigger to break down the firearm, so the rule of keeping you finger off the trigger unless you intend to shoot is nullified. The othe idea of muzzle direction does not apply since you must break down and clean your firearm at home. So, do you know what is on the other side of the wall when you slean your guns, how about through the wall outside? How about through the wall, and into your neighbors' homes? Every range I have been to doesn't allow you to clean your firearm on the firing line, and that is the only place where there is a safe berm to point the muzzle towards. Muzzle direction is a rule which applies to no firearms when cleaning, since you usually sit at a table and break them down to clean in your home. But the trigger doesn't have to be touched on any firearm I currently own to disassemble and clean them. I have nothing against the glock design, the polymer striker fired idea is great. They just need to make a couple slight modifications, as almost every other manufacturer has to their own firearms over the years.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 1:11:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By gunman0: Well, first of all, you have to pull the trigger to break down the firearm, so the rule of keeping you finger off the trigger unless you intend to shoot is nullified.
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I think you (and the father in this story) missed a few steps. Here is the corrected version: 1. Remove magazine 2. Remove round from chamber 3. Double check chamber is clear 4. Point in a [u]safe[/u] direction, and pull the trigger. Note that the first three steps should be followed for [b]any[/b] firearm that you clean. Follow those instructions and you won't hurt anyone. They really aren't that hard to obey, and should be second nature if you really understand how your weapon works. If they are genuinely too complicated for someone then you're right, Glock (or any other gun) is not a smart choice for them.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 2:52:49 PM EST
As most Glock safe users know, to clear a Glock, you drop the mag, pull back the slide to clear the chamber, pull back the slide again to make sure. I think our shooter missed steps two and three. There's no way pulling a trigger on an empty chamber will cause a discharge. Period. I myself think it's purposefully designed that way so you will clear the chamber before field stripping. If you don't do it, it's an accident waiting to happen. I have heard of officers not doing steps two and three because they are used to other guns where you cannot pull the triger and it will not discharge with the mag out of the gun. That's supposedly been a factor in a few cases. I feel for the man, he'll carry this around for the rest of his life. I bet if he were a "civilian" he'd be looking at charges however.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 3:19:07 PM EST
The only "safety" on a firearm is the one between your ears. There is no excuse for failing to clear a firearm. If you live in an apartment there is no safe direction to point your muzzle. You can make yourself a clearing barrel out of an empty 5-gallon paint pail and 2 bucks worth of play sand. All trigger pulling is done with the muzzle pointed into the pail.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:03:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2002 4:05:04 PM EST by Sweep]
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:15:42 PM EST
WTH happened to Grock...
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:43:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By Jetlag: My local news calls [b]anything[/b] a cop carries a "service revolver."
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Annoying, isn't it? Makes it sound like Andy Griffith's unassuming little .38 whellgun. What's even more annoying is that if you and I did the same thing, we'd be labeled baby killers and the journalist would call it a "powerful, high capacity semiautomatic weapon favored by drug dealers and widely rumored to be the choice of terrorists because it is made almost entirely out of plastic." The journalist would throw in a quote from some tinpot dictator police official who would remark about how us civilians have no need for such a gun and how this could have been avoided if the guy just called the police if anyone bothered him, instead of keeping the dangerous gun around.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:49:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By jsprag: I think you (and the father in this story) missed a few steps. Here is the corrected version: 1. Remove magazine 2. Remove round from chamber 3. Double check chamber is clear 4. Point in a [u]safe[/u] direction, and pull the trigger. Note that the first three steps should be followed for [b]any[/b] firearm that you clean. Follow those instructions and you won't hurt anyone. They really aren't that hard to obey, and should be second nature if you really understand how your weapon works. If they are genuinely too complicated for someone then you're right, Glock (or any other gun) is not a smart choice for them.
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I handle a loaded Glock almost daily and so far I have managed not to have a ND. When I clear it to be broken down, I check the chamber 4-5 times visually by cycling the slide AND stick my finger in the chamber to reconfirm. Then I point it right into the ground, no possible casualties below, before pulling the trigger.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:59:08 PM EST
[b][i][size=6]HEY,HEY,HEY!![/b][/i][/size=6] Easy on the moniker there!! [b][size=5][i]I'm just fine! (so is my reliable and safe GLOCK!) No tradgedy![/b][/size=5][/i] [b][size=6]Jeeze!, you scared me![/b][/size=6] [8D]
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:08:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By redray: from crashburnrepeat:
...... If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later, I just pray that when you do, it's not pointed at your innocent 3 year old son....
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[b]huh? what exactly do you mean by that? are you assuming that none of us pay constant attention to detail? your assumption lacks credibility! i bet you all my firearms that i [red]WILL NOT[/red] have a negligent discharge in my lifetime.[/b]
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I'll sweeten the pot with mine as well. Fucking idiots and retards have NDs. Pull a trigger when you aren't absolutly sure it's cleared...and then even if you are do it with it pointed at some one?!
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:18:05 PM EST
I don't see in the story were it said what type of gun the idiot had what a horrible thing to live with
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:26:26 PM EST
Ok, now to address the issue: I believe there should be a requirement for an IQ test before puchasing a firearm. If your IQ is below the caliber of the firearm in question then you should be excluded from ownership....
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:34:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later.
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BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img]
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You never cease to amaze me with your utter stupidity. [:E] AB
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 5:51:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By albob:
Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat: If you own and use firearms, you WILL have an ND sooner or later.
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BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! If you follow safety rules every fucking time you won't!!! Obviously this guy didn't!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 [img]http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/8dafa939/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/Dads68.jpg?bcpugX9AC9KKrvHO[/img]
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You never cease to amaze me with your utter stupidity. [:E] AB
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Who's more stupid. The guy who thinks that this type of action is unconscionable, or the fucking idiot that thinks it's acceptable.
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