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Posted: 6/21/2002 9:44:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 9:57:11 AM EDT
I think I love that woman. ARH
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 9:59:33 AM EDT
I will say from the start that I am a Northerner from birth and happy to be so. I have no problem at all with any person's pride in their heritage, be it Northern, Southern, African, Mexican, Irish, or Chimpanzee (for us evolutionists - zing!) I do have a problem with the Confederate battle flag. I have always seen it as a thumb-to-nose symbol of a long finished war: "You didn't win, we're still here" sort of thing. And with that, a sideways endorsement of the culture of the old South, including slavery. I am NOT trying to offend anyone here, this is just my opinion/confusion over this issue. I have been to the South many times and my former mother-in-law is a true lady of South Carolina. Some of the most polite and genteel people you could ever wish to meet. Anyway, I would appreciate hearing the opinion of other AR15.com members. -regards, legrue
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 10:18:52 AM EDT
Here ya go legrue - (from Ann Coulters editorial) [i]But there is one problem with a total rejection of all things related to slavery: It was the Democratic Party that supported it. The Republican Party was formed for the specific purpose of opposing slavery. I'll start believing the Confederate battle flag hurts somebody's feelings as soon as the existence of the Democratic Party hurts their feelings, too. These are the rules -- and pay close attention, because they are completely arbitrary: "Dixie" is bad because it uses Southern black dialect. Rap music, however, is good, even though it employs a black criminal dialect. The flag under which slavery flourished for almost a century is good. But the flag under which slavery existed for less than a decade is bad. One continent's slavery is good, but another continent's purchasing of those very slaves is bad. And for the final rousing conclusion: The party that supported slavery, leading to the Civil War, is good. But the party that was created expressly to oppose slavery is bad. [/i] The CBF flap is PURE Democratic grandstanding and Marxism in action.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 10:31:26 AM EDT
For me, the Confederate Battle flag is, just that - a battle flag. It never flew over "State" buildings in the Confederacy. Therfore, unofficial in status
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 10:43:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2002 10:43:58 AM EDT by USNJoe]
The "current" Confederate States of America flag. [img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/confed3.gif[/img] The CSA Naval Jack. [img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/scross.gif[/img] The CSA battle flag.[img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/confed.battle.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 10:55:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By USNJoe: The "current" Confederate States of America flag. [img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/confed3.gif[/img] The CSA Naval Jack. [img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/scross.gif[/img] The CSA battle flag.[img]http://www.usflag.org/historical/confed.battle.gif[/img]
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USNJoe what do you mean when you say "current"?
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:05:27 AM EDT
It was the last official flag of the CSA.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:09:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: I will say from the start that I am a Northerner from birth and happy to be so. I have no problem at all with any person's pride in their heritage, be it Northern, Southern, African, Mexican, Irish, or Chimpanzee (for us evolutionists - zing!) I do have a problem with the Confederate battle flag. I have always seen it as a thumb-to-nose symbol of a long finished war: "You didn't win, we're still here" sort of thing. And with that, a sideways endorsement of the culture of the old South, including slavery. I am NOT trying to offend anyone here, this is just my opinion/confusion over this issue. I have been to the South many times and my former mother-in-law is a true lady of South Carolina. Some of the most polite and genteel people you could ever wish to meet. Anyway, I would appreciate hearing the opinion of other AR15.com members. -regards, legrue
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Southern people will always have to take shit thrown at us from the rest of the country. I wonder do you get offended when you see a black person with a big X on their shirt or cap?
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:13:12 AM EDT
Ah. thank you Joe for the quick repsonse.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:14:52 AM EDT
I have felt for a long time that the protests over the use of the Confederate Flags were more than just a tempest in a teapot! It is more appropos to say the anti Confederate Flag protest, is a tempest in a full Chamber pot. The full Chamber pot is my symbolism for the mind of the protester. And you do know what a Chamber pot is full of, don't you.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:18:57 AM EDT
I have no problems with the Confederate flag. Fly it and be proud. Like all symbols, the problem lies in the usage by whatever groups. By the way, legrue is one of the more reasoned members on this board. Now only if he'll get out of the fast lane...lol.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:29:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2002 11:30:41 AM EDT by bill3508]
Let me remind you Legrue that you northerners had slaves as well. If we want to use the flag to say were still here and defy that we lost the war then we have the right to do that. We can use it in whatever context we feel free to. Northerners like you and others who feel the flag is discrimination base you decisions on the few idiots that use the flag in those types of actions. Those people are of the smallest proportion in the South. I don't know of anyone who refers to the flag as representing slavery and I have never even heard of any person claiming that it does. Our flag represents our Southern heritage, which did include slavery as a necessity in that day and age. Remember you had it to, and slavery would have died out soon regardless of the war due to inventions that came soon after. Bill3508
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:03:08 PM EDT
LOL!, the first article reminded me that I had the CBF for liberty cuffs on my jumpers while in the Navy. I don't have any problem with the flag, Hell my great great grand daddy fought in the war of northern aggression. He fought against that son-of-a-bitch sherman. I don't even have a problem with people that have a problem with the flag. Each to his own.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:20:19 PM EDT
Wasn't the #2 under Jeffersn Davis a Jew? The very basis for the sale of southern goods was Jewish Merchants. Wasn't it about State's rights and freedom from a repressive large fedceral government? Best yet, Lincln hated Scots, always made remarks about under every Johnnie Rebs pants was a Kilt! Slavery was doomed by Eli Whitney and Machines.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:43:07 PM EDT
On a more serious note. Here is a link to a good book on the subject. [url=http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2F0385476345%2Fref%3Dasc_df_03854763455116762%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dshopzilla0d-20%26ascsubtag%3Dshopzilla_rev_463-20%3BSZ_REDIRECT_ID%26linkCode%3Ddf0%26creative%3D395093%26creativeASIN%3D0385476345&mid=184056&cat_id=8024&atom=10128&prod_id=3161083&oid=848725892&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=4&bamt=16a79e2eedbc1695&cobrand=1&ppr=b0c9b35402bd5ddb&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=12&af_creative_id=2973&af_id=26865&af_placement_id=1659178&dv=448c15595b24b9b8c35c0ecb5760d6a6&af_campaign_id=j7vmmmy5k500zk8a02m9y][i]What They Fought For[/i][/url]
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:45:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Buddha: I have no problems with the Confederate flag. Fly it and be proud. Like all symbols, the problem lies in the usage by whatever groups. By the way, legrue is one of the more reasoned members on this board. Now only if he'll get out of the fast lane...lol.
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ROFL! You caught me a good one, Buddha :) Between you and me, I do try to be more conscientious of where I am now. Don't tell LarryG I said that tho!
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:48:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 12:59:40 PM EDT
I wonder if people are/were offended by the "General Lee" on the Dukes of Hazzard? LOL. Some people have too damn much time on their hands to be worrying about this stuff. If you like the flag, then by all means fly it. Besides, the more people that complain about it, the more people will display it.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 1:18:49 PM EDT
Born and raised in New England, I came to Georgia 39 years ago, and have been a Georgian by adoption. Now it doesn't bother me one way or the other if people want to display the Stars and Bars; but it Damned Sure PISSED ME OFF when they changed our state flag because some people ojected to the Stars and Bars being part of the design. The Stars and Bars were there when we were working for equal rights for everyone in the '60s. They were there when my family and I walked with Hosea Williams for equal housing in Forsyth County (and I was a homeowner there at the time), and none of us gave it a second thought because it was OUR state flag; Stars and Bars and all. I'll never feel anything but contempt for that POS rag they replaced it with, because of the motives of those who pushed it thru. The point is, if you're proud of an emblem, and your pride is grounded in decency and caring, no one should be allowed to take it away. [USA]
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 1:45:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2002 1:48:02 PM EDT by gamesniper]
I was born and raised in Missouri, kind of a place that had both sentiments, but historically considered a northern state. I have ZERO problem with the Confederate flag. It's a part of this country's history, NO MATTER WHAT IT REPRESENTS. I'M SICK AND GODDAMN TIRED OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO RE-WRITE HISTORY. Personally, my sentiments rest with the South-I'm not under the illusion that the war was fought for slavery alone. And Ann Coulter has a point that I didn't even realize until I read it 5 minutes ago-slavery existed under Old Glory for longer than the Confederate flag. I feel the southerners-and the states that wish to do so-should be able to display and fly the Confederate flag as they choose. People that get their undies in a bundle about it NEED TO GET A LIFE AND MOVE ON. But then again, who are the agitators? "Rev." Jesse Jackson? "Rev."Al Sharpton? The I-don't-really-belong-to-any-church shitdisturbers that make a living out of doing more harm than good for their race.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 2:31:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 2:52:51 PM EDT
gamesniper: " I was born and raised in Missouri, kind of a place that had both sentiments, but historically considered a northern state." Errr, Missouri was (&always will be) a southern state, one of the 13 stars on the Confederate flag represents her. Once you get away from the left/right armpits that are KC & St Louis it's rather evident. The main reason that Missouri stayed in the union is the fedpig JBT bluebellies chased the governor away from Jefferson City & occupied the major towns. Missouri Confederates were among some of the most diehard, never surrender rebels there were.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 4:47:03 PM EDT
to those who might not understand our feelings.. the north punished the south so forcefully that the the hatred is pretty much ingrained in the DNA of anyone who is of generational dixie blood. the total destruction of the economy and starvation of our people after the war from demonic generals and their underlings to the godforsaken government thugs that immigrated to "help" us out. the ravages of the rape of the south that had little to do with actually winning the war was done out of vengence to teach everyone a lesson. they did that.. it caused us to pretty much disregard anyone above the blue line UNTIL they prove their worth as a friend. the punishment was so severe that still today we see the effects. we have the highest rates of poverty, child malnourishment, infant mortality.... has anyone ever thought about those things.. its documented that things went on a total road to hell after the war...up to the war, the south was the economy of the us.. if it werent for the naval blockade, we wouldnt be having this discussion at all. slavery..what a bad press item that was. after the tariffs were killing the southern merchants and good makers and the yankee lawmakers in washington doing everything they could to keep control of washington.. go figure..that the states fed up with that system would want to check out.. the slavery issue was only brought up because they had to spin some godawful press about the evil southerner..to save grace over why the states wanted to leave in the first place. anyone who believes the that slavery was actually a major reason of the civil war needs a lot more history tutoring.. southerners...WE HOLD GRUDGES LIKE NO OTHER. remember... it was basically a cease fire ...and not a unconditional surrender to my knowledge. and yes..my family were cherokee and choctaw confederates.
Link Posted: 6/21/2002 11:08:54 PM EDT
The problem is that they teach that the Civil War was simply fought to free the slaves. This oversimplification leads the ignorant to believe that it's simply a symbol of slavery. For the longest time I thought the same about the CBF. It wasn't until I found out the true history and not the crap they taught us in 'publik school' that my opinion changed. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/22/2002 4:30:06 AM EDT
Agree with muddydog...and I believe it was U.S. Grant who said, "If this war was fought only to abolish slavery, I would have offered my sword to the other side."
Link Posted: 6/22/2002 5:49:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: I will say from the start that I am a Northerner from birth and happy to be so. I have no problem at all with any person's pride in their heritage, be it Northern, Southern, African, Mexican, Irish, or Chimpanzee (for us evolutionists - zing!) I do have a problem with the Confederate battle flag. I have always seen it as a thumb-to-nose symbol of a long finished war: "You didn't win, we're still here" sort of thing. And with that, a sideways endorsement of the culture of the old South, including slavery. I am NOT trying to offend anyone here, this is just my opinion/confusion over this issue. I have been to the South many times and my former mother-in-law is a true lady of South Carolina. Some of the most polite and genteel people you could ever wish to meet. Anyway, I would appreciate hearing the opinion of other AR15.com members. -regards, legrue
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Gee, how surprising that legrue would disagree with anyone while poking along in the left lane.[:D]
Link Posted: 6/22/2002 7:52:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2002 8:00:34 AM EDT by Big_Bear]
Link Posted: 6/22/2002 10:10:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2002 10:11:00 AM EDT by legrue]
Originally Posted By LARRYG: Gee, how surprising that legrue would disagree with anyone while poking along in the left lane.[:D]
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Love you too, Larry [:D] -legrue
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 8:14:53 AM EDT
A good book on the War: "The Lost Cause" by E.A. Pollard. Published in 1866, current reproduction printings are available. Mr. Pollard was editor of the Richmond "Examiner" during the war. The contemporary account gives a more detailed and knowledgeable discussion than a century removed synopsis.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:15:40 AM EDT
Mississippi's Flag [img]http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst039.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:28:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: I will say from the start that I am a Northerner from birth and happy to be so. I have no problem at all with any person's pride in their heritage, be it Northern, Southern, African, Mexican, Irish, or Chimpanzee (for us evolutionists - zing!) I do have a problem with the Confederate battle flag. I have always seen it as a thumb-to-nose symbol of a long finished war: "You didn't win, we're still here" sort of thing. And with that, a sideways endorsement of the culture of the old South, including slavery. I am NOT trying to offend anyone here, this is just my opinion/confusion over this issue. I have been to the South many times and my former mother-in-law is a true lady of South Carolina. Some of the most polite and genteel people you could ever wish to meet. Anyway, I would appreciate hearing the opinion of other AR15.com members. -regards, legrue
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It [b]is[/b] a 'thumb-to-nose' symbol, 'you didn't win, we're still here' symbol! Anything wrong with that? [:D] Oh, you may have won that little war, but if you value your right to keep and bear arms, you will want to start 'whistling Dixie' soon, yourself! Many Northeners fought for the South, BTW, in that late unpleasantness. Who knows you may look good in butternut or gray. This time for certain we will win, 'cause this time we're playing for higher stakes than just State's Rights, we'll be playing for our God-given rights as American cisitzens! 'Will You Come to the Bower?' Eric The(AFineOldTexasSongOfIndependence)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:29:07 AM EDT
Amen! Born and raised in Memphis Tenn. Lived In Northern Miss. 4 yrs. Tyler Tx. area for 7 yrs. Now Misplaced Southern Boy living in Northern Ohio!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:30:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue: Between you and me, I do try to be more conscientious of where I am now. Don't tell LarryG I said that tho!
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I heard that! Now, get out of the way.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:45:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 3:08:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 3:09:51 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: LARRYG ain't a real southerner. REAL southerners like NASCAR. [;)]
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Bah! Born in Birmingham, lived in Georgia since 1967. So there. I was interested in LeMans and sports car racing back in the '60s when ABC was showing it and the GT40 and Cobra were kicking ass over there and over here. NECKCAR is boring.[peep]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 3:49:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: LARRYG ain't a real southerner. REAL southerners like NASCAR. [;)]
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Bah! Born in Birmingham, lived in Georgia since 1967. So there. I was interested in LeMans and sports car racing back in the '60s when ABC was showing it and the GT40 and Cobra were kicking ass over there and over here. NECKCAR is boring.[peep]
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Well lessee...back then the Run-off's at Road Atlanta were called the Champion Spark Plugs Road Race of Champions and I had the pleasure of being there thru 1974 when the Can-Am died.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 4:02:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: LARRYG ain't a real southerner. REAL southerners like NASCAR. [;)]
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What is Nascar? Outlaw Southern Pro Mod is where it is at.
"Run what ya brung, and hope you brung enough." These "anything goes" races are all held at eighth-mile venues, and the SOPM group race between twenty and thirty times a year at tracks in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Missouri and South Carolina.
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[url]http://www.competitionplus.com/04_10_2002/southern_outlaw.html[/url] I haven't been lately, but it is on my todo list ;)
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 4:20:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 5:11:44 AM EDT
I've never been around nicer people than my wife's Southern relatives. I say "Fly it with pride". It's part of your heritage, and I see no - absolutely not a single - reason why anybody should have anything negative to say about it. (Let alone why they might be listened to!) And this is from a direct descendent of the one & only U.S. Grant. (Sorry [b]y'all[/b], but it's true. It's not like I can change it.)
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:00:39 AM EDT
"Southerners are truly our warrior class" Ok.I'll buy that but there are some guys that take it to the max and use the CBF as a tool in there quest to be a dumb ass. Lets keep a bit of class in the warrior class,after all the folks in the south may be looked at as bums now but that was not always the case. The place for the flag is over town hall not in the back of your truck. BTW:We should ask that people from the UK don't fly the Brit's flag. I think it stands for not letting women buy land and vote.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:52:58 AM EDT
CBF 13 stars, but I can only come up with 11 states. Oklahoma was not represented on the flag but was definitely with us. We know what happened with W. Virginia. I guess Missouri and Kentucky still say they are Southern? Geographically yes, but when it came time they talked the talk but did'nt walk the walk.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:53:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:00:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By seb127: CBF 13 stars, but I can only come up with 11 states. Oklahoma was not represented on the flag but was definitely with us. We know what happened with W. Virginia. I guess Missouri and Kentucky still say they are Southern? Geographically yes, but when it came time they talked the talk but did'nt walk the walk.
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Missouri and Kentucky's governments both claimed to be Confederate, but were overrun by the Yankees to quickly to follow through. They sent soldiers to the Confederacy in large numbers, however. Eric The(Thankful)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:47:35 AM EDT
Very thoughtful posts. I'll have to mull this around in the ole brain pan abit. -legrue
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:10:21 AM EDT
seb127: " CBF 13 stars, but I can only come up with 11 states. Oklahoma was not represented on the flag but was definitely with us. We know what happened with W. Virginia. I guess Missouri and Kentucky still say they are Southern? Geographically yes, but when it came time they talked the talk but did'nt walk the walk." As I pointed out in my earlier post & ETH said, Missouri & Kentucky were both slave states that didn't *officially* leave the %^&*$#union because of overwhelming occupying fedpig forces. Oklahoma wasn't even a state at the time, it was "Indian country" but lots of Native Americans joined the Confederate cause. Missouri didn't "walk the walk"? One of the early battles in the war was between Missouri militia & union fascist forces at Lexington, Missouri. The leader of the Missouri Militia? Sterling Price, who with several others went to Mexico rather than surrender like Lee. Didn't walk the walk indeed! Some of the most mean,nasty, viscious fighting in the war was between southern & fascist partisans along the Missouri/kansas border. Lawrence,KS ring a bell? Contrary to what the propaganda history books say, it was a just payback for all the burning & looting the redlegs did on the Missouri side in the name of "preserving the union". Kentucky pretty much was the same, perhaps even being more 'southern' because of the lack of pro union squarehead germans in St Louis skewing the #s.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:23:11 AM EDT
Brainwashing by the FedGov seems to work. Those who think slavery had [b]ANYTHING[/b] to do with the War of Northern Aggression are sadly mistaken. Did you know that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate states? Northern slaves stayed slaves... Scott
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:28:00 AM EDT
By the way, in case anyone was wondering, the correct southern way to say the state name is with the "ah" ending. Mizzourah, not mizzouree. The long 'e' is the yankee-fied KC/ST Louis way & who wants to be confused with those idiots....[;)]
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:33:19 AM EDT
Thanks, [b]RiffRandall[/b], I'll never make the mistake of calling it 'Missouree' again! And remember folks, it's 'Lou-wee-zee-ana' not 'Loose-i-ana' when talking about the Hun's birthplace! Eric The(AndIt's'Nooawlins'Not'NewOrleenz')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:39:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScottHewitt: Brainwashing by the FedGov seems to work. Those who think slavery had [b]ANYTHING[/b] to do with the War of Northern Aggression are sadly mistaken. Did you know that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate states? Northern slaves stayed slaves... Scott
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Ah, but it only freed slaves in states that were in rebellion, if any of the southern states had quit fighting and rejoined the union, they would have kept their slaves. As has been stated, it was not about slaves.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:45:05 AM EDT
My wife and I just got back from the Alamo in San Antonio,Tx. Throughout its history Texas served under 6 flags-the confederate flag being one of them. I looked over those 6 flags, but did not see the traditional "Stars and Bars" of the confederacy. Instead, a flag with 7 stars forming a circle resided in the upper quadrant represented this part of Texas history. I feel that the battle flag of the confederacy is more recognized, and should have been there.
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